What is your budget? Do you need a phono section? What amplifier are you driving? Does it have a balanced input?
Might try a tube preamp
I’ve been toying with the idea of giving tubes a try and thought I would start with a tube preamp running to my SS amp and see how I liked it.
After reading reviews and looking through some of the posts here on Audiogon I’ve been thinking of a LTA micro ZOTL or rogue audio RP-7 - each around $5k. Thoughts on these?
Or would I be better off looking for something else used here on Audiogon? Maybe a ARC Ref 5 or LS-28? I’m pretty new to tubes so am open to options.
Thanks
After reading reviews and looking through some of the posts here on Audiogon I’ve been thinking of a LTA micro ZOTL or rogue audio RP-7 - each around $5k. Thoughts on these?
Or would I be better off looking for something else used here on Audiogon? Maybe a ARC Ref 5 or LS-28? I’m pretty new to tubes so am open to options.
Thanks
41 responses Add your response
Get a Schiit Freya...a great sounding preamp that has some unique features including the ability to switch in and out of the tube section into passive or FET, has balanced and single ended ins and outs, has a very accurate volume control, and costs peanuts relative to pretty much everything out there. |
I assume you are not seeking more resolution but a bit more warmth or flavour? ARC is a bit too close to SS for what I want from a pre. Mcintosh C2600 has some nice tube flavour & 12AX7 are common enough to roll cheaply! McIntosh is very popular with Wilson gear. Note that your Ayre DAC is already a little “tube” sounding.... Do you need MM and MC capability? |
Yep, I’m looking for a little more sweetness and air for female vocals in particular. I currently have a Gryphon Diablo 300 being fed by a Chord Dave and focal speakers(I need to update my virtual system in my profile). May seem strange, but I was thinking of just running the Tube pre theough my Home theater bypass on my integrated. I love the Diablo, but thought it might be nice to use a tube pre for those times I’m looking for a different sound. Is this crazy to do? Plus would give me a chance to see if I truly like the tube sound before going all in. No analog, I will be feeding it from a Aurender N10 and the Chord. I’d like to keep the cost below $5k. Thanks |
You can buy an older Counterpoint preamp like a SA-2000. They go for cheap on the used market. If you like what it does, the upgrades can take it to an entire level for much less that anything mentioned about. 6922/6DJ8 tubes are east to test and make a difference. Upgrades include volume control, nichicon caps, Vishay caps, tube regulation/rectification, a few resistors and filter choke. Hard to beat in the $5K area once the upgrades are completed and for a lot less. Happy Listening. |
look at what's on for used right now ( Jadis looks so beautiful IMO,drool), if your look at great tube sounding pre’s a Jadis is hard to beet for that price. https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis94cdf-jadis-jpl-tube-preamp-tube |
I would buy a pre-owned Conrad Johnson ET5, right here on Audiogon and put a Telefunken 6922 tube in, or a Siemens 6922 tube in, depending on the type of music you prefer. All in, you'll be way under your budget, have great sound, long term reliability and nominal depreciation if you want to go in another direction later. In my view, this is a great sound, can't miss recommendation. And yes, I have an ET5 with a Telefunken 6922 tube. But, don't take my word for it, Absolute Sound rated the ET5 as a top value award winner in/around 2015, and that's when the unit listed for nearly $10,000. |
I have this tube pre-amp in my system and it is one of the best ones I have heard and for a price that cant be beat. Give the guy a call and discuss what you need. He can build anything you might need into it. http://www.dsachsconsulting.com/custom%20line%20stage.html |
My system *finally* all came together when I added the PS Audio BHK Signature Preamp. It has a tube input stage and MOSFET output. It is very “tubey” sounding, to my ears, anyway. I love the warmth and cohesiveness it brings. My amps are PSA BHK monos (also tube hybrid), so they are very well matched impedance-wise. The preamp has HT passthru capability which was a major selling point for me. I have become a huge fan of PS Audio gear. |
Since your amplifier is integrated and there doesn't appear to be a direct input to the power amp section, I don't see how a preamp tube or solid state would help. But the amp does have a set of balanced inputs and seems to be internally balanced, so a balanced tube preamp would be a nice option as it could minimize the effect of interconnect cables on the sound. And as others have mentioned, our MP-3 preamp is such a beast and actually supports the balanced standard. The used ones here on Audiogon would be a good place to start if you go that route. Like your amp, the MP-3 is fully differential and balanced with zero feedback and a minimal signal path. |
I just took delivery of the Schiit Freya. $699. My mentor warned me of a solid 24/7 five day break-in period of near unlistenability (made up) so I cannot say yet if I will keep it. (14 day trial) Other considerations for me were : 1. Audible Illusions New $4700, Used $2500 2. EAR 868 . New $7,500 Used if you find one would be about $4,000. Since you are new to the tube world, the trial period offer may be the way to go. |
The Linear Tube MicroZotl 2 is very good and is actually only about $2,000 new with external power supply. Linear Tube has come out with a dedicated preamp which Terry London of Home Theater review has gone nuts for and is $4500. All the other posters on the thread have given you excellent alternatives. |
rshad0000 I believe it can be used as a poweramp. " RCA Input 3 of the Diablo and using the Menu to configure this input so that the signal bypasses all preamplifier stages in the Diablo." My friend has one he says he uses it with his Lightspeed Attenuator passive preamp. Cheers George |
rshad0000 OP132 posts This is what you should try before blowing 5k on a preamp. It in your instructions to set up rca input 3 to be a power amp only input. Set the Diablo 300 in the menu to make input 3 a "poweramp input" and this totally by-pass the preamp stage. And because your Chord has such a great volume control, connect it to input 3 of the Diablo, and use the Chord to adjust your volume. From Chord: "The device’s lossless digital volume control outputs the signal direct to your power amplifier for the purest experience. DAVE has a full-sized LCD display, showing input, sample frequency, volume and set-up configurations options, within Chord’s famous porthole design. On its fascia, DAVE also features a rotary encoder with a large stainless steel controller and ball buttons, enabling direct interactivity in addition to the supplied remote control." From Gryphon: " RCA Input 3 of the Diablo and using the Menu to configure this input so that the signal bypasses all preamplifier stages in the Diablo." Cheers George |
rshad0000 OP133 posts Freya is great also, has 3 different modes ss,tube, and passive. Also has the best mechanical volume control going around (the one in the Chord is better being digital). But still, my bet is for the Chord direct into the Gryphon to sound the most transparent , dynamic, and un-coloured. But then some people like colouration's that all active preamps give, even passive ones to a much smaller degree. Cheers George |
Want a Freya, I’ll gladly sell you mine with the best sounding set of NOS tubes for it. That said, for the money, I would go with the Don Sachs 2. He’s no longer doing crazy combinations of things to them though. He’ll find and match the preamp to the impedence of your amp, and he’ll install an input for balanced cables, but he has tried about every tweak known to man now, so he won’t use Billy Bob’s wang dang output caps or other things that would please customers but degrade the sound. If you have speakers a tube amp can drive he also sells an amazing amp, and both would be under 6K. Not the 5 you spoke of, but it will blow most if not anything under 25K away, and a lot of gear that sells for more. That, or I’ll sell you my Freya with unused original tubes, Ken Rads and early 40’s Raytheons and a PrimaLuna Prologue Five, which will almost certainly sound better than your current setup, though the amp is underbiased so it only puts out 36 watts I believe, but I’ll sell both for 1600 shipped to the lower 48. I obviously went on to higher end gear, but if you start here, you can probably get your money back if you upgrade later. That said, I still second Don Sachs’s gear. |
It’s clear from your post that you are new to tubes and your intent is to introduce tube sound to your system to see it’s right for you. My advice: 1. Buy a tube amp to fully experience tube sound not a tube preamp to use in front of a SS amp. 2. When moving in the direction of tube audio for the first time do not buy new, buy preowned. 3. When selecting a tube amp be aware that the equivalent sound/usable power ratio compared to SS is about 4:1 meaning a 200w SS amp can be replaced by a top brand class A 50W tube amp. |
These are all solid suggestions. I would go with the Rogue. Great sound stage, imaging and detail. Also really friendly for tube rolling.
I have owned some of the units listed and when I was in the market for a new Preamp I compared Rogue with some of the units listed as well. Obviously I ended up with the Rogue. |
Nothing against the Rogue, they certainly do make nice equipment, but the most neutral 6SN7s are the Shuguang Treasure 1's, aka CV181T. I am sure that New Sensor will come out with something in their Gold Lion or Mullard line soon that competes, but that is the most neutral tube I have ever heard. If you are tube rolling beyond that, you have other issues in your system, and tubes are a bandaid. Like I said before, the Freya is a nice little preamp, but for it to compete it needs Ken Rads for proper tone, and early 40's Raytheons for imaging. You could use the CV181Ts for imaging as well. The point isn't to roll tubes, the point is to get your system right so that you don't need to! |
I’ve owned a LOT of preamps and I consider the Freya to be a neutral, very well designed and way underrated giant killer with performance and features absent from really any other preamps at any price, although I haven’t heard every other preamp including those from Don Sachs, Don Juan, or Don Ho (Although I did sell a Fender Twin Reverb amp with JBLs and an Anvil case to Don Ho in maybe 1980...that’s another story). In my Freya I prefer some recently acquired NOS RCAs and NOS Sylvania "chrome domes" (although I’m not 100% sure the RCAs are better than the Sylvanias, but they’re in the somewhat less critical "output" stage). With these it certainly "competes," and if you don’t tube roll how the hell are you going to know which tube works best with your rig? Note that regarding cost, my Dennis Had "Inspire" Firebottle HO (it’s a HO...says so right on the front) was 4 months old when I bought it for about 1100 bucks, and the Freya new was 700...with $11,438 spent on 6SN7GTBs used in both. So I now have all of this for around $13,238. Take that Don Sachs! (is that like Don Juan? I hope it is if only for my sake). I’m running out of storage space for the tube collection, and may have to wire them up in a string as holiday ornaments. |
Arugmentum ad hominem, how intellectual and original. That the Freya beats a more expensive commercial product, considering its designer, should surprise no one. Commercial products made in large numbers, and sold through small audio boutiques necessarily cost far more than the component parts do. There is designer overhead, manufacturing overhead, distribution costs, and dealer overhead, to name a few costs. Small independent makers are therefore not only able to compete, but in fact can offer much more for much less. They can use vastly better parts, and can easily better far more expensive gear. Sachs has spent his life as one of, if not the preeminent go to person for modifications and upgrades of Citation and McIntosh tube gear. Your credentials sir, you have owned a few preamps, who hasn't? You have owned a few tubes, I have a crazy collection myself, and Sachs has heard more than us both combined. Unlike you, I used to do equipment modifications myself, though I only did tube gear for myself and one other audiophile friend as I really didn't have time to relearn tube circuits. The tube gear once used for video pickup was replaced by CCD in the 1990s. The fully tubed gear used for low light applications was also replaced by CCD, but we maintained it, we didn't do mods, so I was uncomfortable doing mods on tube gear for others. Anyway, you know more than all, you implied it, so it MUST be true. So stop with they Freya, it is a decent tube preamp for the money, with the right tubes, which you are not using. The original poster didn't ask about a great entry level preamp or else the Freya would have been my recomendation. |
BTW, this is about MY Stasis amplifier, I sent it to Jon because he buys transistors by the hundreds and matches them, and he had identified caps that would fit, with increased capacitance. Furthermore, at that time I didn't work on amps, I didn't have dummy loads, and it was flat out less expensive to have Jon provide matched transistor and such than for me to buy and match a set out of hundreds that I wouldn't later have a use for. Anyway, Jon had installed matched sets and new caps in hundreds of Stasis amps at Threshold, and after Mr. Garcia, but he told me that he had never heard one that sounded as good as mine. " sean6,229 posts07-18-2004 1:45pmAs good as many Threshold amps are, they can all benefit from component upgrades / internal modifications. One of my friends has a very highly modified Stasis 2. He swapped out many of the caps, diodes, etc... of the existing circuitry, increased the filter capacitance of the power supply and then had Jon Soderberg of Vintage Amp go through and align it. While this was the most heavily modified amp that Jon has ever worked on, he also said that it was probably the best sounding Threshold amp that he had ever heard. Given that Jon used to work for Threshold and has probably repaired / modified hundreds upon hundreds of Threshold based products, even after they went out of business, i think that his comments should say something about how much parts quality equates to what we hear. This is just another reason why i encourage others to upgrade / modify what they already have, if they are basically happy with it. With that in mind, i don't think that you can go wrong with any of the mid to later series Threshold pieces, even in stock form. Some are better than others, but all of them have the potential to sound very nice. While I can't say that i've even come close to hearing or examining every amplifier or design out there, Nelson Pass is my favourite amplifier designer at this point in time. He has been for several years now. Sean" That's okay, you know ot all Mr. Garcia, we bow to your superior knowledge and intellect, only a true genius can use personal attacks after all. |
My post was primarily in jest, had no misspellings or punctuation issues, and I don't actually care much about Don Sachs although I assume he's a wonderful designer and a true mensch, and I do hope to someday be his friend so we can perhaps shower together and share vacations. Note that I refuse to practice any form of mirth control. Also, nobody cares about the most interesting part of my post which is the Don Ho reference, and that's a shame. I do think the tubes I'm using sound fabulous in the Freya, and am seemingly too old to care what anybody else thinks unless they absolutely agree with me. I will politely refrain from telling you what you can do with your Ken Rads. |
Ken Rads on their own suck. They tend to be enormously microphonic, and completely lack dimensionality. What they do bring to the Freya table is tone, instruments sound real. The early 40's Raytheons add dimensionality. Chrome dome Sylvanias are bright, if you have sufficient high frequency hearing loss, they may sound okay. The really old Sylvanias are supposed to be something special, but who wants to spend 100 or more for NOS tubes that can last years, or days? All that said, if you are content with your system, that's great, until you try to pass it off as more than it is, then your going to called out. |
My NOS Sylvanias are NOT bright, noted by most reviewers of these things, and I also use NOS USA Amperex tubes, and NOS RCAs...Instruments certainly sound real, which I can verify by listening to actual instruments I often use as a life long musician. I bristle at references to my hearing as I currently work with world class musicians in my capacity as a professional live sound mixer...if this gets out I'm toast! I suggest you not threaten me as being "called out" for reporting things as I hear them, as It makes you seem somewhat desperate, cowardly, weak, and a little creepy. |
Not bright assumes a neutral system. Nothing is bright with certain components. That they are not bright in your system is great. My system rides the razer’s edge, anything slightly bright added is immediately ear bleeding. For instance, Pasvane CV181 Treasure IIs are slightly bright, Sunguan Treasure 1s are neutral. I’d bet that the T IIs would sound pretty good in your systems. If I put my CS-7’s or B&W 801Ms back in, Sylvanias would sound better, but they have to play through crossovers then, and capacitors are sound sponges, so bright helps. In audio least is more. The fewer components the signal goes through is desirable. Beyond that is personal preference, some like it hot, I used to years ago. The last thing I go to in audio though is argumentum ad populum. Why, because far more components sell than good ones, and many of those cost tens of thousands. Neutral, transparent, et. al. are extremely rare in a system. I don’t even begin to want to look back at the gear that I have gone through. Admittedly I haven’t had tons of money, but even expensive gear is argued over, Rolland is sark, some Krell gear is dark, etc., etc., etc., ad nauseam. So let’s agree to disagree, but don’t tell me what others think, I seriously doubt that their systems sound would impress me. It’s taken me a lifetime to get to a system where changing a resistor is generally obvious, I stress generally because I haven’t tried every resistor out there. TX2575s are good enough for me. |
