Mrschret, I'm pretty certain you are on target. This is really a very weird situation because I've been a Magnepan fan since 1975 but this is the first time I have ever needed anything from Magnepan relative to service.
I care not what the product or service is if I really get a strong sense of no reasonable consideration for the customer I'm gone. And Rayooo, yes, I'm nuts and a hot head at times but 5 weeks and no damage estimate just doesn't work for me. |
Mrschret, it's clear neither they nor the dealer care enough about you to make sure that it happens. That ought to be enough to know it's time to move on. |
My take:
1. Magnepan should have communicated with you promptly once they received the damaged speakers and should not have waited five weeks to give you an estimate. I assume you now have the estimate and the insurance claim is in process, right?
2. Shipping crates- cost more money than cardboard and styrofoam to fabricate, and add to shipping weight. If they have experienced alot of damage by cheaping out on packing, it would be self-defeating, and more costly to them in the long run. But, is it clear that your seller used the original shipping cartons and packed them properly?
3. Turnaround time- you should have probably been told what to expect when you first contacted Magnepan. I don't fault small companies for this- it sort of comes with the territory. When my Lamm L2 started acting up, I called Vlad and was told they were leaving for the Munich show and wouldn't be back for a month. He's a one man band. Had to wait until he returned and then drove the units to his house/factory because I'm in NY. He repaired it quickly after that, and the initial wait was frustrating, but I adjusted my expectations, and bought something to use temporarily in the interim (which I thereafter resold once the Lamm was repaired).
4. This is one of the downsides of buying stuff used or from private sellers. I'm not advocating buying new from a dealer (I have taken advantage of used equipment here and through dealers), but the premium you pay a dealer should cover delivery and set-up, loaners when there are issues and generally make your life easier. They may also have more clout than you, as an end-user. The dealer I rely on locally makes house calls, delivers stuff, provides loaners, takes trade-ins and is responsive to emails and phone calls when i have questions or needs. That's why I go to him. I don't think about the premium there because at the end of the day, it's worth it. |
Really? I'm travelling there, with two weeks notice, to possibly spend $14000 and he can't gurrantee that they'll be available. What does it take for the place that makes them to plug them in? I had the same experience when I tried to audition at the Eggleston factory in Memphis. Nowhere to listen to the speakers where they are made? Whacky. John |
I know 5 weeks is a long time to wait but in fairness to Magnepan they were on Vacation for 2 weeks
sorry this still happened to you...
By making the wood crates weigh more you also made the shipping (weight and costs ) off the charts as well as cost of building them causing yourself further pain and expense.
Ultimately you will be well taken care of by Magnepan as they are a highly professional company
Have a little faith and hang in there.
JohnnyR
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The way I read this is that the shipping co. accepts liability, and that you are just waiting for Magnepan to open the package and provide a damage report and a cost to repair the speaker. I think it's discraceful if these are the facts as I see them, whether the product was bought used or not. |
Etmerritt33, the more you post, the more a complete picture of the type of person you are emerges. To some extent it doesn't matter, but suppose an employee at Magnepan was reading this thread. The way you've, maybe not directly, but causally encourage others to not buy Magnepan products, which in effect threatens that employee's ability to put food on the table for his family or shelter above their heads. Do you think reading this thread will motivate that employee to get to taking care of your problem faster? Or will your speakers get passed over time and time again to handle the problems of people who aren't whining, pouting, stomping their feet or holding their breath?
Human nature is what it is. |
Magnapan and any other company that services products aren't so special as to be somehow immune to criticism. |
I had damaged goods come in recently and couldn't just send the packages back to the owner of a certain speaker company. They wanted me to file the claim and once the inspection was done through UPS then they would proceed. The product we are talking about had very expensive crossovers in them that were now exposed and hanging by speaker wire. In this case, these should have gone back to the speaker builder in a much safer and better packaged box.
A very long thread was closed due to me throwing flames in the end. So I completely understand the frustration Etmerritt is going through when dealing with customer service issues. Send me a pm if you want to know more pbjg@att.net
Thanks,
Paul |
I was at a building department one day and someone came in hoot-en and hollering that their permit wasn't ready yet. Made a seen and left. I watched the personnel person put their folder at the bottom of the stack.
Something I would never do- send back a dinner at a restaurant more than one time. |
OnHwy61- my sense is that OP is venting his frustration and perhaps using this as a way to put pressure on the company but frankly that only works if: (a) the company knows about the posting; and (b) is usually given the opportunity to make it right before that threat materializes. Of course, the company could take steps to rectify a problem with a customer after he goes 'public,' just to reduce the fall-out, but alot of the comments here seem to recognize the limitations of smaller manufacturers and the pace of repairs, regardless of manufacturer size.
There was an interesting article several years ago in HiFi+ about how a single poster could poison an audio product in the marketplace. It raised the spectre that a poster could be an anonymous shill for a competitor. I'm certainly not suggesting that is the case here, but it is a problem. (The converse is also true, like fake 'likes' on Facebook- pumped up 'raves' over a product that are contrived by a vendor as guerrilla marketing).
I say we cut the guy a break, he received some constructive suggestions here, and we see what happens.
I do think complaints about service, or poor quality, deserve to be aired and benefit others.
Best,
bill hart |
There was an interesting article several years ago in HiFi+ about how a single poster could poison an audio product in the marketplace. It raised the spectre that a poster could be an anonymous shill for a competitor. I'm certainly not suggesting that is the case here, but it is a problem. (The converse is also true, like fake 'likes' on Facebook- pumped up 'raves' over a product that are contrived by a vendor as guerrilla marketing).
I say we cut the guy a break, he received some constructive suggestions here, and we see what happens.
I do think complaints about service, or poor quality, deserve to be aired and benefit others. You have no idea how I feel about this comment! Very well said indeed. If the complaints are credible then they need to be voiced. I took my comments too far and a thread was closed. Yes I was the poison but justified to no end. The poster has a right to complain if he sees fit and it sounds like he is being ignored. I am very familiar with this. |
Obviously the OP has a right to express his experiences and opinions. At the same time participants is this forum have the right to an opinion about the OP's problem(s) and the reasonableness of his actions. I read this thread as an attempt to drive business away from Magnepan. Based upon what the OP has stated I don't think such a post is warranted.
Criticism is not the same thing as unleashing the "modern forum based wrath machine" (to use Wolfgarcia's phrase). Being that the audiophile universe is small to begin with, I seriously question why someone would want to drive business away from one of the bedrock firms in this small universe.
Next time you are pulled over by a state trooper be sure to shout at him how your taxes pay his salary and how he really works for you. Tell the same thing to the judge when you're disputing the ticket. |
Obviously the OP has a right to express his experiences and opinions. At the same time participants is this forum have the right to an opinion about the OP's problem(s) Exactly why public forums were introduced. |
It would be interesting to hear from more people who have bought Magnepan products new (not used) and have had issues , to see in what manner Magnepan responded to them. I can't comment on Magnepan, having never bought anything of theirs, but for me, if I hear from word of mouth or see in print that a company's customer service is indifferent, then it doesn't matter if they're product is the best thing since sliced bread...... I wont buy. And yes, I hold off judgement on that until I see that it's not just one person who has a bug up their butt towards any company (not saying thats what the op's case is). |
Still no estimate from Magnepan. I will call them again today. Today marks the beginning of week 6.
Almost sorry I started this thread but I could care less if any and all from Magnepan read the thread and all the various comments. It should never have gotten to this point. I had talked to Shelia in the repair department at least 4 times BEFORE the speakers arrived. She had all the info and issued me an RA number. Then, when I called her after no one at Magnepan could find my speakers after Estes confired someone at Magnepan signed for them on June 25th. (only ones in the shop in a wood crate I strongly suspect) and she acted like she had never heard of me before when I asked her to check for me that week???
I have made my decision and I am not trying to influence anyone on what they do. I am selling both pairs of Magnepans (1.7's and 3.7's) and I am done with Magnepan period. My 37 year affection for Magnepan is over with after this treatment. I will not even unpack the 3.7's and set them up if I ever see them again. This is just a ridiculous situation and I do not need the aggravation.
On the whole issue of buying used I have done that for many years. In the beginning with Audio Art in Richmond being a large Magnepan/ARC dealer it made it easy to buy used and then begin trading up to the larger models which for me was the Tympani's. In this case I paid close to a new price just due to the backlog of MG3.7 orders and nothing else. Also, there is no Magnepan dealer in Richmond any longer as Audio Art is under new ownership and is primarily an Avalon Acoustics dealer now. The practice of buying used allows upward mobility for people wanting to upgrade. So, it should work well for everyone. |
Etmerritt33, I also criticized a bit in my previous post, mainly about the $1K spent to ship them to Magnapan. Seems like you just dug yourself deeper into this loss.
But: the Magnapan customer service issues do sound awful. Almost Like they're *trying* to screw you perhaps. Maybe, b/c you didn't buy them new, from an auth. dealer? Or they don't want to open the giant wood crates? (I assume you haven't said stuff to anyone there to antagonize).
Even if they finally repair them.....& you pay, even more hundreds of $$ to have them shipped back.....I'd hope the repair is really done right?
Only thing I could say that *might* be helpful, is that I've had to "eat it", at least a couple of times, on a really bad house, or car purchase. It happens, but it ain't fun.
Finally, try to "keep it in perspective", if you can--(easier said than done!), but Good luck....... |
((Bigjoe is exactly right. My wife suggested the same thing The practice of buying used allows upward mobility for people wanting to upgrade. So, it should work well for everyone.}}
Or does it?
Buying used.....Is it for everyone?
Look at this post and your old one below and you be the judge.
((Yesterday. I took digital pics of the Wadia and all the pieces and parts that were going with it before I packed it. It makes me mad as hell because this was a really nice piece. When I detailed it before I packed it I was surprised at how nice it was. Not a scratch on the faceplate, top, or sides. They just trashed it completely. It won't power on and I suspect the circuit boards are broken also. I really feel this was intentional after the confrontation I had with the first driver when he almost ran over my brand new heat pump units.))) |
Tom, sorry to hear this is still dragging on, yet I believe you have been patient. If there is anything I can do to help please give me a call (free from my website)...it would be great to catch up with you anyway.
Brian |
Audioconnection, That Wadia 16 was repaired by Steve Huntley and resold to a gentleman in Rome, Italy. DHL paid for the repair and Steve did it promptly. I refunded the original buyer 100%. Not sure what the point was that you were trying to make?
Since 1975 when I started doing this with Audiomart magazine, I have had the Wadia 16 damage and an Audio Aero Capitole CDP which had the drive damaged by UPS. They paid that claim and Rich at Sig Sound in NY did that repair. I took care of it all and got the repaired unit back the buyer in Canada in a prompt manner.
That is all the damage issues I have had in all this time until the CJ ACT2 and MG3.7 at this same time two months ago. I have undone the CJ ACT2 deal and the seller has refunded my money in full. Still no estimate on that repair but it is no longer my problem. The preamp has been sitting at CJ for weeks and this is week 6.
So, all that being said I think the high end bottom feeders like me and many others support the top end of the high end market by allowing others to move up the audio food chain buy taking new equipment and flipping it after they go off to the next new thing. Obviously, not a perfect scenario every time but it should work to the collective good most of the time.
Unless one has a ton of discretionary funds where you can pay list and sell at a huge loss months later, buying used is the way to go. I have found that the vast majority of audiophiles take care of equipment so as to maximize the value if they want to make a change and sell or trade in the equipment for something different later. |
Sometimes I wonder if the shippers employees are deliberately damaging packages. Just think of the money they could save if they could make their employees take some responsibility for damage. They'd have a lot fewer pissed off customers as well. |
Sometimes I wonder if the shippers employees are deliberately damaging packages.
Rja True story: I was talking to the UPS guy who services the company where I work and I asked him how packages are treated. He said some workers are more conscientious than others. He advised me no to label packages as "FRAGILE" as some of those people see that as a challenge. It's what he said. |
Ultimately you will be well taken care of by Magnepan as they are a highly professional company :) A well meant comment, for sure, but that professionalism seems to take a long time to surface! I wouldn't want my spkrs or my car in a similar situation. |
I called Magnepan yesterday and left a message for Shelia trying to make sure they had my correct email address after having been given it multiple times. Still no response from Magnepan. Think I am going to take the earlier suggestion and write Steve Winey a letter today about this situation. I would just like to get reimbursed by FedEx, get the speakers repaired, and get them back so I can sell them. |
Why bother to have them shipped back to you? Once repaired, presumably with a warranty of some sort from Mag, you could arrange to have them drop shipped to your buyer directly from Magnepan, and potentially have the buyer pick up the shipping cost. In fact, there's an old pair of Tympani listed right now, where the seller is doing precisely that- he had the speakers restored, and the buyer can choose the color of the 'grill' cloth and shipping apparentlywill be directly from Magnepan to the buyer.
My only suggestion on the letter is that it be even handed, no hyperbole, facts usually speak louder than characterizations. And ask for his help, rather than dunning him. |
Whart,
Excellent thought and suggestion! Thanks!
Just finished the letter and I did try to just state the chronology and facts. Had to go back to end of May emails and come forward to establish an accurate timeline.
I am about to mail the letter.
Thanks again for your very good suggestion!!
Tom |
*True story: I was talking to the UPS guy who services the company where I work and I asked him how packages are treated. He said some workers are more conscientious than others. He advised me no to label packages as "FRAGILE" as some of those people see that as a challenge. Timrhu*
I'm a big fan of UPS, overall, & think it far superior to "Fed-ex Ground", which I think is how Etmerritt33 shipped his speakers (?). 10 years ago maybe, I took a Rega TT to the local Fedex office to ship by "Fed-ex Ground", & they actually warned me not to do it, to send it by UPS instead.
But if the packing isn't very, very good, for delicate or heavy items, it will get damaged.... |
Steveaudio, despite the story, I also prefer UPS to Fedex. My horror story with Fedex is worse as it actually happened and wasn't just what the driver told me. |
Whart,
Also, went back and revised my letter to Steve Winey as per your advice and to avoid return shipping to Richmond.
I also removed a paragraph that was a little strong but true.
I mailed the letter yesterday so I'm guessing they will see it on Friday.
I suspect Magnepan is going to dog me about this regardless and I am sure Magnepan could care less if they are selling everything they can make at this point. No company could be this incompetent so I can only assume it is deliberate. I still have yet to receive an email from Magnepan as promised last week with the estimate to repair the damage.
Tom |
I think speakers are the worst things to ship. The farther the distance, the more handling equals greater potential for damage. I live in the Midwest, had a pair of vintage Advent speakers shipped to me from New York. These speakers were in pristine condition from the seller. He sent them UPS in one big box. The package weighed about 80 lbs. When the box arrived, I couldn't believe it. The box had been dragged across the floor (probably at a UPS hub) with a grappling hook. A 3/4 inch steel rod with a sharp hook at one end and a handle at the other. They had sunk the hook into the box totally destroying one of the speakers. The other had various scratches and dings evidence by the outside of the box. By dragging the box, the tape wore off the bottom and when I picked it up the contents started to fall out. I had to file a claim but lost out on my shipping expenses of $160. Never again. Lesson learned. |
Mr m, I agree completely. After I had the DHL with the Wadia incident a few years ago I did some research on shipping damage with audio equipment. As you would guess there are horror stories relative to all carriers some of which would just make you go nuts. I concluded that you have risk with all carriers and the only difference can be how they deal with damage claims. Unfortunately, not a lot of difference there either that I know of.
I have tried to hedge by going to extremes with packing and carefully documenting the entire process with pics, hoping for the best but prepared for the worst. In my somewhat limited experience if you do have damages and present meaningful documentation it becomes more difficult for the carrier to not pay the claim. That can also change.
I have learned from this experience to never ship speakers via regular FedEx or UPS but to use a freight company along with wood crates. Not bullet proof but much better odds IMHO.
I suspect Magnepan would argue to the contrary but I like the way Soundlabs packs their speakers in wooden crates. I had a pair of Soundlab M-2Â’s several years ago and they are much better protected than the Magnepans. IMHO, the Magnepan 3.7 and 20.7 may have reached a point where a reusable wood shipping crate is justified. Hard to believe it would add that much to the price if all 3.7 and 20.7 speakers went out with them and Magnepan could sub the job out to a local company. The materials could not be that expensive.
I just wish Magnepan had responded better in my situation. If they had quickly provided an estimate after the speakers arrived at the factory and repaired the damage in 2-3 weeks or so I would feel entirely differently at this point. Just a big disconnect relative to expectations between the manufacturer and the customer. |
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This is like a soap opera - must....resist....watching....but can't :-) |
An end to a saga
You will see
Cheers JohnnyR
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I hope this dilemma goes on for a while as it is sort of entertaining. |
This company is a small shadow of what it once was. Their extreme rudeness and arrogance at trade shows should be your first clue to AVOID this company. I have owned 5 different pairs of Maggies in the past but I am done with this company. Plenty of better choices out there. |
Just to be fair and accurate today actually marks the end of the 5th week of Magnepan having the 3.7's and me not having an estimate.
I get the message, guys! Over and out. Tom |
I get the message, guys! Over and out. Tom
Etmerritt33 No way. Those who think this should end can simply not click on it further. I am interested in the outcome. Please let us know. |
agreed, while we may not need a blow by blow of how pissed you are on a daily basis, Tom, i would also like to know the outcome. And, i have no axe to grind with Magnepan. But since you reached out to the community, not only to express your displeasure with the company but to get some help, I feel somewhat invested in the outcome at this point. |
Isn't all this the sellers responsibility? Was this an Audiogon transaction? |
Has anyone ever brought up the possibility that Magnepan runs a lean organization? In this economy, I surely wouldn't have someone readily available to inspect damage on a speaker they didn't even buy from me. I would think that coming off a two week shut down for vacations, they have some demand to meet. I highly doubt they have piles of speakers lying around to meet demand. They might also have someone dealing with damaged speakers that are new. Are they getting paid for this estimate? Do they have to pay someone because your seller
or Fed Ex screwed up? Where does the money come from to pay the person who assesses the damage to your speakers? |
I just realized I do have an axe to grind, but it's an actual axe and bench grinder so I'm not sure it even matters to this thread. That said, a relevant point I can make illustrates the fact that a "lean organization" has even more incentive to not be marketing oblivious as the leanness could lead to no businessness. In a hurry. I started a small company many years ago that competed with huge players in the same (financial services) market...we were insanely successful because we did a better job at everything the big boys did...most importantly service. The excuse of vacations (!) or "smallness of workforce" combined with the inability to simply respond to any customer with a beef is a harbinger of disaster, especially when Magnapan is magna-panned in public. |
*Erikt--This is like a soap opera - must....resist....watching....but can't :-)*
I can't believe I'm still reading this, let alone responding again. But "it is like a soap opera"; I keep tuning in for the next episode.
Among all the things I don't understand about this train wreck, is WHY anyone buying used, out of warranty, gear from a very small, esoteric mfg., would "assume" that the co. would have some prompt repair operation. It's just not realistic. Buying huge, hard to ship gear just compounds the problem. |
Wolf- I gotta say, apart from the substance of your post (which i tend to agree with), you are pretty funny. |
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I will be visiting Magnepan Thursday 8/9/12. Per their website instructions, my family will be taking a tour and then hopefully audtioning the 20,7's. There is a good chance that my tour guide will be Wendell. I'm very tempted to ask him what he knows about all this. I have to think it's simply that they do things one way and that way is very slowly. When you buy new, they don't hide the fact that you will wait. You are told right up front that the wait time is long. Your not told two weeks just to make you feel good. Your told two months or longer. As a result your getting a finely crafted piece of equipment that has absolutely no rivals anywhere near it's price point and many multiple price points beyond. This company has been doing business this way since 1969 and obviously has been extremely successful. Considering the 100s of thousand of speakers they've sold I don't think they're too concerned with this. When they're ready they'll get to it. If you don't like it then go someplace else. Once again, their website tells you that they have plenty of business and are not in a hurry for anymore. |
My recollection of Magnepan service when I called upon it a number of years back (in the relatively prosperus 90's) was it was reliable built not necessarily fast even back then.
Home audio is a luxury, not a necessity so FBOFW my experience is that most vendors are not well equipped for fast/immediate turnaround with service requests.
The best ones though will always provide reliable communications including estimates in a timely manner. But even then, if you are anxious to get things through as quickly as possible, you have to take the lead in communicating clearly and regularly as needed. And an estimate is just that, an estimate and is always subject to change.
I expect most any service event where I must ship out my gear to last weeks. That's why I always try to keep decent spare gear around to hold the fort when something in my starting lineup is on the disabled list. If you want to play a game, it always helps to have a strong bench. |
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Update. No response yet from Steve Winey relative to my letter. Sheila called and said she emailed the estimate last week. Nothing in my junk folder and it sounded like she had the correct email address from her voicemail message. I got an email address for Magnepan and sent her an email a few minutes ago. Hopefully I will have something to submit to FedEx to complete my damage claim in a day or two. Still no ETA on the repair.
Mrschret, feel free to ask Wendall anything you like about this situation. I already made my choice to blow off Magnepan for good. I just need to know when they will have the 3.7's repaired so I can list them on Audiogon. |
Magnepan emailed the repair estimate this morning. It is only $ 381 if you can believe it! Waiting for them to send it on Magnepan stationary via scan so I can upload to FedEx website later today.
Now, hoping that FedEx will be willing to pay the entire cost of shipping and the custom crate along with the $ 381. If that can happen we can get out of this deal and forget the aggravations of the last few weeks. It appears FedEx was willing to pay at least $ 2500 and the total for this will be just a little over $ 1300 with the full bill from Craters and Freighters.
I have already undone the Conrad Johnson deal. Interestingly enough, to the best of my knowledge, CJ still has not examined damage to the ACT2. This is either the 6th or 7th week they have had the preamp. |
I'm not trying to be contentious(at all), but- I wouldn't expect FEDEX to be willing to pay for anything beyond the repair costs. If they do; consider yourself to have been MAJORLY blessed! |
