The worst possible speakers to ship. |
Eight weeks, they will try to ship them this week but are really busy. First and last pair of Magnepan speakers! |
Wolf,
Yes, and while we have no reason to question the details supplied, they have been supplied by 1 side who has an emotional investment in the situation. Even though is has a question mark after "HORRIBLE " perhaps asking about others experiences or something similar would have been a better approach versus the one used, but hey that is just my preference in handling such situations and not to simply vent. Again my interpretation of "tone", yours and others view may differ from mine.
Magnepan may have indeed totally dropped the ball on this one and if so needs to evaluate how to not let it happen again.
So many of us have had nothing but positive experiences dealing with the company, perhaps we are viewing this as a rare exception although that does not help the original poster.
One last comment would be to say that in my mind the "fault" would be in Magnepan's communication, not the turn around time. Remember this was a used pair of Maggie's, damaged by someone else and we do not know the service back-up at he time and as others have said, when all is said a done, a small company.
As stated in a previous post of mine my 3.7s took longer to get new then the time to get his repaired and the 20.7 back log is even longer |
The actual event that resulted in damage to the speakers, whatever was spent on packing, and the drought that may not have had much impact on Minnesota are all irrelevant to this discussion...HOW Magnapan handled this situation is the only real issue, and the excuses and explanations to justify that are seriously lacking the professionalism that one expects and deserves from a first rate company. |
Hi Whart,
No, not my 1-D's, which sold earlier. Strange story, which I won't go into here since I don't want to hijack the thread.
I've been having an interesting conversation with the owner of the 1-D's that are up now. Well, interesting if you're a Tympani owner, anyway. :-) |
I'm confused...partial blame is directed towards Magnepan for not providing wooden crates for new products...yet the OP bought used...had them crated...and they STILL were damaged...how is that Magnepans fault....this shouldn't be a blame issue...things happen |
I just saw a pair of 3.7s on Audiogon that are in MN for svc and wondering if this is the same pair and something was worked out? Sure looks that way.
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/magnepan-mg-3-7
If so perhaps perception might have changed considering the ad |
Very informative post by Josh. (Josh, btw, are those your refurbished Tympani that are for sale, to be delivered from Magnapan on completion?) |
I can understand your frustration but do be aware that this is very much an exception to experiences most of us have had with Magnepan. Been a Maggie owner for 25+ years and when I sent my MGIIIas in for svc and they were damaged in shipping and Magnepan simply rebuilt and re-paneled both speakers on their dime.
Also it is a small company and please realize that some us us have waited 1-2 months to get our 3.7s new and the back order for my 20.7s in more like 4+ months so it is somewhat understandable this is not high on their priority list given new sales build back log.
Not saying it is right just understandable. BTW I have always found everyone I have talked to at Magnepan to be polite and helpful. I know that doesnt make it any better for you though! |
Emrritt,
As it turns out, Magnepan does have a system of crating -- but they've found that customers won't pay even a little bit more for it. It seems that they know that Magnepan and the freight company will deal with a problem if it occurs, so they have no incentive to pay more. Whereas we both bought our speakers used and so had to deal with the original seller and freight company.
Wendell Diller points out that they do in fact warn of just that on their web site:
"However, we have a word of caution. Magneplanars are very sturdy, but, they sometimes lose in a 'conflict' with a forklift driver or careless freight handler. If this happens with a new pair of speakers, Magnepan and your dealer will handle the hassle with the freight company. If the freight company wants to fight the claim, it isn't your problem.
"The safest way to buy a used Maggie is with a warranty from your nearest Magneplanar dealer. The next best option is to personally check out the speakers before buying. The worst option is a 'great deal' on the Internet. To our thinking, if it is such a great deal, why wouldn't someone locally snap it up?"
One other word about how they interact with customers. While I was visiting, they got a call from a guy in India. His distributor had given him foot screws of different lengths, and he couldn't figure out which to put where. In short order, engineering and the factory became involved, and the decision made to send him a new set of screws of the right length. Later, as I understand it, he spoke to Wendell. The amount of attention, both direct and behind the scenes, was extraordinary, and hardly cheap, given the cost of labor.
I don't know what happened in your case, and I don't know why they don't put their email addresses on the web, but I've spent enough time making futile attempts to contact various "customer be damned" companies and talking to people with impenetrable foreign accents after an hour on hold to appreciate this old-fashioned aspect of the way they do business, and the fact that they're so accessible -- or at least have been when I called them.
Mrschret, I'm not sure what the situation was, or why communication wasn't better. From what I've seen, when people have called and asked about time frames, they've been happy to oblige.
Based on my own experience as a customer over the years, good communication is vitally important -- it may be disappointing to learn that your repair will take two months, but I think most people will accept that. It's not hearing anything or being able to get through that drives you to distraction.
When I mentioned my broken Tympani to the beleaguered head of the repair department, she said, "Good God, don't send them now." :-) |
I'm anxious to hear what member "Mrschret" has to say after he visits Magnepan tomorrow. Maybe he can shed even more light on this topic? |
Emrritt,
As it turns out, Magnepan does have a system of crating -- but they've found that customers won't pay even a little bit more for it. It seems that they know that Magnepan and the freight company will deal with a problem if it occurs, so they have no incentive to pay more. Whereas we both bought our speakers used and so had to deal with the original seller and freight company.
Wendell Diller points out that they do in fact warn of just that on their web site:
"However, we have a word of caution. Magneplanars are very sturdy, but, they sometimes lose in a 'conflict' with a forklift driver or careless freight handler. If this happens with a new pair of speakers, Magnepan and your dealer will handle the hassle with the freight company. If the freight company wants to fight the claim, it isn't your problem.
"The safest way to buy a used Maggie is with a warranty from your nearest Magneplanar dealer. The next best option is to personally check out the speakers before buying. The worst option is a 'great deal' on the Internet. To our thinking, if it is such a great deal, why wouldn't someone locally snap it up?"
One other word about how they interact with customers. While I was visiting, they got a call from a guy in India. His distributor had given him foot screws of different lengths, and he couldn't figure out which to put where. In short order, engineering and the factory became involved, and the decision made to send him a new set of screws of the right length. Later, as I understand it, he spoke to Wendell. The amount of attention, both direct and behind the scenes, was extraordinary, and hardly cheap, given the cost of labor.
I don't know what happened in your case, and I don't know why they don't put their email addresses on the web, but I've spent enough time making futile attempts to contact various "customer be damned" companies and talking to people with impenetrable foreign accents after an hour on hold to appreciate this old-fashioned aspect of the way they do business, and the fact that they're so accessible -- or at least have been when I called them.
Mrschret, I'm not sure what the situation was, or why communication wasn't better. From what I've seen, when people have called and asked about time frames, they've been happy to oblige.
Based on my own experience as a customer over the years, good communication is vitally important -- it may be disappointing to learn that your repair will take two months, but I think most people will accept that. It's not hearing anything or being able to get through that drives you to distraction.
When I mentioned my broken Tympani to the beleaguered head of the repair department, she said, "Good God, don't send them now." :-) |
Thanks for correcting me Josh358. I actually thought about that while driving to work today and realized there is no way they repair speakers based on production, since they repair old speakers and there is no production line for those!
Etmerritt33, those boxes they ship the 3.7's in seem quite sufficient. I do know UPS quoted me only about $150 to ship them across country when I thought I had to. I also think Magnepan sells replacement boxes for their speakers for like $50 or something. I could be wrong there, but thought I read that somewhere they did. Maybe not. No need to crate them, but that's just my opinion. If UPS/Fedex damaged something then I might disagree too. Seems they'd have to really drop or smash the speakers to actually damage them. They must have done a doozy on yours! |
As I said in one of my earlier posts-I place some of the blame for the damage squarely on Magnepan's shoulders. I mentioned this in my letter to Steve Winey that Magnepan should provide a wood crate for shipping for the 3.7's and 20.7's and increase the price accordingly. We paid through the nose at $ 371 to have the crate built. I can't imagine it would cost much more than $ 200 each if these were made on a routine basis?
Everything is great with Magnepan if you don't have a shipping damage problem. If you have to interact with them on a repair you are screwed based on the way they communicate. Why they do not at least set up hotmail or gmail accounts for those few employees makes no sense to me. They operate the business like it is 1950. Not surprising how fast things moved when I got an email address at Magnepan. Maybe some good will come out of this for future Magnepan customers. They have lost me for good. |
Yes, I had two pieces damaged at the same time and hence my reaction. I've been doing this since 1975 and this is the first time I have had any piece of equipment I have bought from Audiogon or the old Audio Mart in pre internet days.
The reason I have not mentioned the CJ ACT2 problem is that the seller did not install the 4 screws under the preamp that are supposed to protect it during shipping. So, I could not be honest and file a damage claim with FedEx. Also, the MG3.7 claim was my first with FedEx and I don't want to get a track record of making damage claims. I drove the CJ ACT2 to Northern Va. and hand delivered it to CJ. Think that was six weeks ago this coming Friday.
Since CJ was taking so long, I gave the seller an option to avoid negative feedback on Audiogon by just refunding the money and agreeing on no feedback on Audiogon relative to the transaction. He accepted and we undid the deal. He refunded everything including the Paypal fee. That damage is excepted to be minimal as nothing on the case was affected. It was only internal and CJ said that would be easy to repair.
The reason I have been so aggravated is that in early June I should have been able to set up and listen to the MG-3.7 bases system instead of dealing with these two messes.
Steve Winey has still not responded to the letter I sent him. I am pretty certain he should have it by now. This appears to confirm a comment above about Magnepan operating differently now than when Jim Winey was running the business. I had the pleasure of meeting Jim when he visited Audio Art in the late 70's.
My ads for the MG3.7's, Krell FPB-300, and MG1.7's are up on Audiogon. My bad luck will be someone's gain. |
If the person that handles the repairs was unable to work then what would it take for someone there to just explain the situation. "Our person for repairs is out on medical leave. We'll do the best we can at getting to your problem." |
Chazro...the OP said he sent the CJ back to the seller to let the seller deal with it and the seller refunded his money. He kept the Maggies, thus he is only dealing with the repair of the Maggies, not the CJ.
Apparently the OP is still in touch with the seller of the CJ and knows how the repairs are going? |
You are very likely correct. I just completed uploading all the documentation for the claim. We will see what happens. I was just thinking this isn't going to be automatic. |
Hey Etmerritt33,
I just noticed this post and I'll point out a few things that may help soothe things out a little. I visited the Magnepan factory while driving cross country recently and I can vouch that they do indeed, have VERY few actual workers. The lady who does the repairs had broken a foot and she was hobbling around in a walking boot. I bet that probably slowed down repairs as well.
Basically what they do, is they set up shop to produce 1 of their speakers at a time for awhile, and then switch to a different model. So for a few days it could be MMG's, then 20.7's, then 3.7's, then 1.7's, then 12's, then CCR's, etc... If your speakers happened to arrive after the 3.7's were just made, and repairs are last to get worked on... I imagine it would be quite a wait.
I recently purchased some 3.7's new that took about 6-7 or so weeks to arrive to the dealer I picked them up at. I have no idea where my order was placed in their line-up cycle.
Anyways, I think low staffing is one of the reasons we're all able to buy their speakers relatively cheap and still be made in America. Add that to them making models in batches and the repair lady with a bum foot... and it could take awhile.
I'm not saying change your mind on anything, but I can totally vouch for the company bending over backwards for me on more than one occasion when they didn't have to. They've been one of my favorite companies to do business with. Sorry you had a bad experience, but it doesn't sound typical with all the raving I read all over the web about them. Hopefully things get sorted out for you!
-Bardo |
I spent some time at the repair department when I visited the Magnepan factory a few months back. Just to answer a few questions, it's a separate department, not part of the regular production line although it's on the factory floor and interfaces with it. It's a very specialized, customized operation that lavishes a great amount of loving care on even their older speakers. They'll actually build obsolete drivers from scratch if necessary, as I learned when I mentioned the damage to my Tympani.
The downside of this is that the repair department is highly dependent on the skilled person who runs it. When I was there, they had a backlog because she had been out for five weeks with a broken leg. The other guys at the factory tried to keep up but things slowed down to a crawl. She had just gotten back and she was working on crutches! They'd brought back a former repair department employee to serve temporarily as her hands in an attempt to clean up the backlog.
I'm not sure if this has anything to do with the current problem, but I thought I'd pass it on because it indicates both their dedication to customer service, and some of the problems that can occur in a small company like this (though large by high end standards) -- if one highly skilled person is out, there may be no one with the knowledge needed to replace them.
To address a point someone else made, it may also be impractical to rapidly accommodate increased demand. The entire factory operation involves a surprising amount of skilled labor. If there's a surge in demand it can take a while to train new people up, not to mention that you can't just hire people if the surge is going to be temporary, e.g., there's been a new product introduction. Some audio companies have gone bankrupt when they expanded rapidly to accommodate a surge in demand, from a good review, say, only to have demand fall off. I don't know what the case is at Magnepan, but I do know that the .7's have been selling like hotcakes. It's a welcome success for the company, but I can see that the sudden increase in demand would strain their production capacity.
Also, I'd say that the company does care very much about their customers and reputation, success notwithstanding. Cost control is a strong priority, which is why Maggies are so blessedly inexpensive, but also why they don't have things like 3-way binding posts and wooden crates. Sadly, you can't have it both ways (I've been griping about those binding posts for years). Also, that the people I met at the factory and to whom I've spoken on the phone couldn't have been nicer. It's been years since I was at a trade show, so I don't know what the story is there, but the people I've dealt with over the years have always been great. |
When Fedex mangled one of my Tympanis (forklift through the box), they paid not only for the repair but for the cost of shipping. I don't know if that would include a new shipping crate, but it can't hurt to ask.
Not the first time I've had trouble with speaker shipments, years ago UPS trashed an AR-11 I sold to someone. |
Wait...you had damages to some CJ gear also!? Brother, this has to go down as the absolute worst of worst-case scenarios I've ever heard of! I'm feelin' yr pain but I'm curious, if CJ's kept you waiting for close to 2 months, how come this thread's only about the speaker manufacturer? |
I'm not trying to be contentious(at all), but- I wouldn't expect FEDEX to be willing to pay for anything beyond the repair costs. If they do; consider yourself to have been MAJORLY blessed! |
Magnepan emailed the repair estimate this morning. It is only $ 381 if you can believe it! Waiting for them to send it on Magnepan stationary via scan so I can upload to FedEx website later today.
Now, hoping that FedEx will be willing to pay the entire cost of shipping and the custom crate along with the $ 381. If that can happen we can get out of this deal and forget the aggravations of the last few weeks. It appears FedEx was willing to pay at least $ 2500 and the total for this will be just a little over $ 1300 with the full bill from Craters and Freighters.
I have already undone the Conrad Johnson deal. Interestingly enough, to the best of my knowledge, CJ still has not examined damage to the ACT2. This is either the 6th or 7th week they have had the preamp. |
Update. No response yet from Steve Winey relative to my letter. Sheila called and said she emailed the estimate last week. Nothing in my junk folder and it sounded like she had the correct email address from her voicemail message. I got an email address for Magnepan and sent her an email a few minutes ago. Hopefully I will have something to submit to FedEx to complete my damage claim in a day or two. Still no ETA on the repair.
Mrschret, feel free to ask Wendall anything you like about this situation. I already made my choice to blow off Magnepan for good. I just need to know when they will have the 3.7's repaired so I can list them on Audiogon. |
|
My recollection of Magnepan service when I called upon it a number of years back (in the relatively prosperus 90's) was it was reliable built not necessarily fast even back then.
Home audio is a luxury, not a necessity so FBOFW my experience is that most vendors are not well equipped for fast/immediate turnaround with service requests.
The best ones though will always provide reliable communications including estimates in a timely manner. But even then, if you are anxious to get things through as quickly as possible, you have to take the lead in communicating clearly and regularly as needed. And an estimate is just that, an estimate and is always subject to change.
I expect most any service event where I must ship out my gear to last weeks. That's why I always try to keep decent spare gear around to hold the fort when something in my starting lineup is on the disabled list. If you want to play a game, it always helps to have a strong bench. |
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I will be visiting Magnepan Thursday 8/9/12. Per their website instructions, my family will be taking a tour and then hopefully audtioning the 20,7's. There is a good chance that my tour guide will be Wendell. I'm very tempted to ask him what he knows about all this. I have to think it's simply that they do things one way and that way is very slowly. When you buy new, they don't hide the fact that you will wait. You are told right up front that the wait time is long. Your not told two weeks just to make you feel good. Your told two months or longer. As a result your getting a finely crafted piece of equipment that has absolutely no rivals anywhere near it's price point and many multiple price points beyond. This company has been doing business this way since 1969 and obviously has been extremely successful. Considering the 100s of thousand of speakers they've sold I don't think they're too concerned with this. When they're ready they'll get to it. If you don't like it then go someplace else. Once again, their website tells you that they have plenty of business and are not in a hurry for anymore. |
Wolf- I gotta say, apart from the substance of your post (which i tend to agree with), you are pretty funny. |
*Erikt--This is like a soap opera - must....resist....watching....but can't :-)*
I can't believe I'm still reading this, let alone responding again. But "it is like a soap opera"; I keep tuning in for the next episode.
Among all the things I don't understand about this train wreck, is WHY anyone buying used, out of warranty, gear from a very small, esoteric mfg., would "assume" that the co. would have some prompt repair operation. It's just not realistic. Buying huge, hard to ship gear just compounds the problem. |
I just realized I do have an axe to grind, but it's an actual axe and bench grinder so I'm not sure it even matters to this thread. That said, a relevant point I can make illustrates the fact that a "lean organization" has even more incentive to not be marketing oblivious as the leanness could lead to no businessness. In a hurry. I started a small company many years ago that competed with huge players in the same (financial services) market...we were insanely successful because we did a better job at everything the big boys did...most importantly service. The excuse of vacations (!) or "smallness of workforce" combined with the inability to simply respond to any customer with a beef is a harbinger of disaster, especially when Magnapan is magna-panned in public. |
Has anyone ever brought up the possibility that Magnepan runs a lean organization? In this economy, I surely wouldn't have someone readily available to inspect damage on a speaker they didn't even buy from me. I would think that coming off a two week shut down for vacations, they have some demand to meet. I highly doubt they have piles of speakers lying around to meet demand. They might also have someone dealing with damaged speakers that are new. Are they getting paid for this estimate? Do they have to pay someone because your seller
or Fed Ex screwed up? Where does the money come from to pay the person who assesses the damage to your speakers? |
Isn't all this the sellers responsibility? Was this an Audiogon transaction? |
agreed, while we may not need a blow by blow of how pissed you are on a daily basis, Tom, i would also like to know the outcome. And, i have no axe to grind with Magnepan. But since you reached out to the community, not only to express your displeasure with the company but to get some help, I feel somewhat invested in the outcome at this point. |
I get the message, guys! Over and out. Tom
Etmerritt33 No way. Those who think this should end can simply not click on it further. I am interested in the outcome. Please let us know. |
Just to be fair and accurate today actually marks the end of the 5th week of Magnepan having the 3.7's and me not having an estimate.
I get the message, guys! Over and out. Tom |
This company is a small shadow of what it once was. Their extreme rudeness and arrogance at trade shows should be your first clue to AVOID this company. I have owned 5 different pairs of Maggies in the past but I am done with this company. Plenty of better choices out there. |
I hope this dilemma goes on for a while as it is sort of entertaining. |
An end to a saga
You will see
Cheers JohnnyR
|
This is like a soap opera - must....resist....watching....but can't :-) |
|
Mr m, I agree completely. After I had the DHL with the Wadia incident a few years ago I did some research on shipping damage with audio equipment. As you would guess there are horror stories relative to all carriers some of which would just make you go nuts. I concluded that you have risk with all carriers and the only difference can be how they deal with damage claims. Unfortunately, not a lot of difference there either that I know of.
I have tried to hedge by going to extremes with packing and carefully documenting the entire process with pics, hoping for the best but prepared for the worst. In my somewhat limited experience if you do have damages and present meaningful documentation it becomes more difficult for the carrier to not pay the claim. That can also change.
I have learned from this experience to never ship speakers via regular FedEx or UPS but to use a freight company along with wood crates. Not bullet proof but much better odds IMHO.
I suspect Magnepan would argue to the contrary but I like the way Soundlabs packs their speakers in wooden crates. I had a pair of Soundlab M-2s several years ago and they are much better protected than the Magnepans. IMHO, the Magnepan 3.7 and 20.7 may have reached a point where a reusable wood shipping crate is justified. Hard to believe it would add that much to the price if all 3.7 and 20.7 speakers went out with them and Magnepan could sub the job out to a local company. The materials could not be that expensive.
I just wish Magnepan had responded better in my situation. If they had quickly provided an estimate after the speakers arrived at the factory and repaired the damage in 2-3 weeks or so I would feel entirely differently at this point. Just a big disconnect relative to expectations between the manufacturer and the customer. |
I think speakers are the worst things to ship. The farther the distance, the more handling equals greater potential for damage. I live in the Midwest, had a pair of vintage Advent speakers shipped to me from New York. These speakers were in pristine condition from the seller. He sent them UPS in one big box. The package weighed about 80 lbs. When the box arrived, I couldn't believe it. The box had been dragged across the floor (probably at a UPS hub) with a grappling hook. A 3/4 inch steel rod with a sharp hook at one end and a handle at the other. They had sunk the hook into the box totally destroying one of the speakers. The other had various scratches and dings evidence by the outside of the box. By dragging the box, the tape wore off the bottom and when I picked it up the contents started to fall out. I had to file a claim but lost out on my shipping expenses of $160. Never again. Lesson learned. |
Whart,
Also, went back and revised my letter to Steve Winey as per your advice and to avoid return shipping to Richmond.
I also removed a paragraph that was a little strong but true.
I mailed the letter yesterday so I'm guessing they will see it on Friday.
I suspect Magnepan is going to dog me about this regardless and I am sure Magnepan could care less if they are selling everything they can make at this point. No company could be this incompetent so I can only assume it is deliberate. I still have yet to receive an email from Magnepan as promised last week with the estimate to repair the damage.
Tom |
Steveaudio, despite the story, I also prefer UPS to Fedex. My horror story with Fedex is worse as it actually happened and wasn't just what the driver told me. |
*True story: I was talking to the UPS guy who services the company where I work and I asked him how packages are treated. He said some workers are more conscientious than others. He advised me no to label packages as "FRAGILE" as some of those people see that as a challenge. Timrhu*
I'm a big fan of UPS, overall, & think it far superior to "Fed-ex Ground", which I think is how Etmerritt33 shipped his speakers (?). 10 years ago maybe, I took a Rega TT to the local Fedex office to ship by "Fed-ex Ground", & they actually warned me not to do it, to send it by UPS instead.
But if the packing isn't very, very good, for delicate or heavy items, it will get damaged.... |
Whart,
Excellent thought and suggestion! Thanks!
Just finished the letter and I did try to just state the chronology and facts. Had to go back to end of May emails and come forward to establish an accurate timeline.
I am about to mail the letter.
Thanks again for your very good suggestion!!
Tom |
Why bother to have them shipped back to you? Once repaired, presumably with a warranty of some sort from Mag, you could arrange to have them drop shipped to your buyer directly from Magnepan, and potentially have the buyer pick up the shipping cost. In fact, there's an old pair of Tympani listed right now, where the seller is doing precisely that- he had the speakers restored, and the buyer can choose the color of the 'grill' cloth and shipping apparentlywill be directly from Magnepan to the buyer.
My only suggestion on the letter is that it be even handed, no hyperbole, facts usually speak louder than characterizations. And ask for his help, rather than dunning him. |
I called Magnepan yesterday and left a message for Shelia trying to make sure they had my correct email address after having been given it multiple times. Still no response from Magnepan. Think I am going to take the earlier suggestion and write Steve Winey a letter today about this situation. I would just like to get reimbursed by FedEx, get the speakers repaired, and get them back so I can sell them. |
Ultimately you will be well taken care of by Magnepan as they are a highly professional company :) A well meant comment, for sure, but that professionalism seems to take a long time to surface! I wouldn't want my spkrs or my car in a similar situation. |
