elevated treble, shrill thin bright sound from this Cartridge? I wish I had my HANA ML back. This Lyra sounds horrible!!!Did own Delos. The cartridge is good. I think, there is some improvement in your System necessary….VTA correct? Too high?Phonostage setting?
164 responses Add your response
Fremer in that AnalogPlanet review above mis-typed some of the spec info for the Delos, particularly the loading range. Here are the specs directly from the Lyra website: http://www.lyraconnoisseur.com/Products/Products_Analog/Delos/delos3.html Specifications for LYRA DELOS:
.....................................................................................................................
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm no expert here and only just recently upgraded my phono preamp to one that allows a wider range of loading options for my Lyras. I loved what I was hearing before, but love what I hear now far more. Loading really has a lot of impact on the sound as does VTA. The rest are important -- getting the VTF right, for example -- but I've found loading and VTA have the most effect on how the carts sound. |
Mr Atmospheres's amps were the best I had on my Vandersteen 4a's back in the day. That was a bi amped loudspeaker with an external electronic crossover. The Atmosphere OTL's smoked Conrad johnson, BAT and Quicksilver which at the time was the only tube gear we had in the store. They could not do bass well though. midrange and highs were magical. I used an Eagle 2a for the subwoofers in the Vandersteens. That amp could do bass. I meant no criticism to him. The guy knows what he is doing. Has been designing great amps for years. Look at my updated post on the Lyra as well. I brought home a new phono preamp and a VPI guru to check the Lyra out. The system ROCKS now. Total musical orgasm. |
Also, I am extremely hard on Cartridges due to having a few beers and getting clumsy with the tonearm. So I assume there is absolutely no way that your clumsiness with the tonearm could have rotated some Moving Coil armatures off their axis or other related damage. Indeed, the problem must be the cart (rolling eyes). |
It IS possible that Jeff has been out in the Las Vegas heat for far too long, thus frying his brain and making him cranky. Jeff, apologize to Atmasphere. He is too good for you, and you don't know what you are talking about if you criticize his amplifiers based on bandwidth and bass response, provided the speaker is a good match. Beyond that, you don't know anything about tube electronics if you don't know the potential bandwidth of a properly set up triode. Allen Wright was able to measure a bandwidth out to 750kHz with his RTP3C tube preamplifier. What limits the bandwidth of a typical transformer-coupled tube amplifier is the transformer, the absence of which is the core advantage of OTL amplifiers like those made by Atmasphere. |
Some important parameters to remember with the Delos: https://www.analogplanet.com/content/lyra-delos-moving-coil-cartridge "As with any line contact type stylus, correct VTA/SRA is critical to optimizing performance so a VTA adjustable tonearm is recommended if not mandatory. Compliance is approximately 12x10cm/dyne at 100Hz. Recommended tracking force has a narrow window of 1.7g—1.8, with 1.75 “preferred.” Recommended loading is between 91ohms and 47kOhms determined by listening. VTA is 20 degrees, which Lyra says is achieved with the arm parallel to the record surface. As with other Lyras, the generator is integral to the body as opposed to being a completed mechanism inserted into a body. The result is better mechanical grounding, energy transfer and inherently correct alignment of the generator and body. You can determine the “mathematically correct” loading according to Carr’s instructions by determining the total capacitance between the Delos and the phono stage. While the ultra low inductance of moving coil cartridges makes capacitive loading far less critical than it is with MM cartridges, there remains a relationship between capacitance, load value, bandwidth and the amplitude of the ultrasonic resonance. Usually though, a setting of 10X the internal impedance is a good starting point, which is why Lyra species 91 ohms as the low, which is just above 10X the Delos’ 8.2 ohm impedance. According to the instructions if your cable’s capacitance is 100pF per meter, for instance, loading at 390 ohms will suppress the peak to 3dB while 200 ohms will suppress it to 0 at the expense of slightly poorer phase response and reduced dynamics. I went with 500 ohms but listened at 100 ohms as well, which is where I preferred it." |
fsonicsmith, please return to listening to your 1990's NAD gear believing its high end. lolI have been a member here for over nine years as opposed to your less than two year participation here and unlike you, my system is posted. If you were to look you would see that it is not close to your bad guess. Why not share with us exactly what your system consists of? |
Tubes cannot have frequency extension like a transistor.ROTFLMAO... this statement is laughably false. Had a pair of your OTL's running the top of my Vandersteen 4a's. Nice amps, but they were NOT a neutral sounding amp and DID NOT HAVE the air and transparency of their solid state equivalent.I've had a good number of customers running the 4as full range that would beg to disagree with you on that point. I showed with 4as at CES one year- Richard walked into our room and complained (maybe that's not the right word- he was actually pretty happy) that we had better sound than he did. Just FWIW and that sort of thing, our amps have power bandwidth well past 100KHz; 1 watt power is flat to 200Khz and the output section by itself is good to well past 50MHz (the risetime is about 600V/uS which few transistor amps can do; the voltage amplifier input is what is bandwidth limited). So yes, tubes can have plenty of bandwidth extension like a transistor. You're not going to find ANY Gimbaled tonearm at an affordable price that beats a VPI Unipivot.That depends on what is meant by 'affordable'. The Triplanar uses lower friction bearings than the VPI so might be a candidate for contradicting this statement... If you spend even more money, and the bottleneck persists, you will be really upset (smile).This appears to be where things sit. Without knowing why a perfectly good cartridge isn't working right its a good bet that future exploits will be doomed to the same fate- those who do not learn from history etc.... |
Not a VPI bashing party, bit it sadly has morphed into unipivot vs gimbal thread. Ugh.No, it is fundamentally a troll thread. As I stated in my first contribution to this thread, there is a known pattern to these kinds of threads. The OP starts out sounding sincerely interested in finding some helpful tips though even the OP itself should have raised eyebrows; Have had a Lyra Delos Cartridge for the last month and [improper conjunctive-is English the OP's first language?] have any of you goners noticed a [sic-should be "an"] elevated treble, [sic, improper use of comma] shrill thin bright sound from this Cartridge [why is "C" in "cartridge capitalized?] ? I wish I had my HANA ML back. This Lyra sounds horrible!!!But soon it becomes apparent that the OP is not looking for advice but rather has his mind made up and only wants attention by attacking a well-regarded piece of kit. Then we find out the OP claims to be an expert at cartridge set-up and yet paradoxically entertained ideas that this cartridge needs tubed gear (utterly ridiculous) and then after allegedly pining for his trashed Hana ML states that he only likes MM, not realizing that the Hana is also MC. So no, while I did mention his unipivot arm not being the best vehicle for a Lyra cartridge twice, this thread has not morphed or drifted into a unipivot vs. gimbaled arm thread. It has developed into just one thing-an embarrassing cringe-worthy train wreck for our drunken OP. Let's examine this beaut of a post; My ortofon 2m black blew the Hana and Lyra out of the water!!! MOVING COILS ARE HIGHLY OVERRATED.. Tubes cannot have frequency extension like a transistor. Mr Atmosphere, I sold your amps back in the 90's at a dealer in Southern California. Had a pair of your OTL's running the top of my Vandersteen 4a's. Nice amps, but they were NOT a neutral sounding amp and DID NOT HAVE the air and transparency of their solid state equivalent.So now our drunken sailor says his Hana was trash too as his Ortofon 2M "blew it out of the water". He claims he sold Atma-Sphere kit and yet he does not even know how to spell their name! He claims, without knowing me, to have "forgotten more than [I] have ever known" and yet he blurts out this gem; When I heard a Demo of the Delos it was on an all tube system. Mine is solid state. There is the problem. I would not recommend this cartridge to anyone unless you have tubes which roll of highs and add body and warmth to the sound.How can anyone with 35 years of claimed experience including being a high-end dealer make such a categorical statement about all tubed gear? This is not just cringe-worthy, it is vomit inducing! |
Well Jeff it's a good thing I have the 10.5i Uni Pivot on my Super Prime Scout as well as the 10 inch 3D Reference Gimbaled on the way. (Ordered June 30 right before the price hike). We'll see which arm my Lyra Kleos likes best. BTW, reach out to Alasdair yet or are you still enjoying all the attention you're getting? |
HAHAHA, Very funny fellow goners. Now this is turning into a VPI bashing party. I say enjoy your cheap gimbaled tonearms with its horrible friction and lack of adjustments. To do a gimbaled tonearm correctly costs a lot of money. You're not going to find ANY Gimbaled tonearm at an affordable price that beats a VPI Unipivot. |
Also, I am extremely hard on Cartridges due to having a few beers and getting clumsy with the tonearm.Translation-I am extremely hard on fellow audiophiles due to having a few beers and getting clumsy with my manners. Fwiw, my beerbelly friend(emy), I have been in the hobby for 45 years. How you can claim to "have forgotten more than you have ever known" is inexplicable, though again, the above explains a lot. I agree that an expert at TT set-up can make a unipivot sound very good, but there are inherent limitations to the VPI unipivot due to microscopic movement of the arm in the X-axis, the horizontal plane. A very good gimbaled arm does a better job of allowing all vibration picked up by the cantilever/stylus to be converted as is ideal into electromagnetic signal. A phono cartridge is like a loudspeaker transducer in reverse. A phono cartridge in a VPI unipivot arm is like a loudspeaker transducer mounted to it's cabinet with a bunch of loose screws. You know all about loose screws :-) |
I was wondering if jcarr would chime in on this obserd rant. A couple things, jcarr is an absolute class act (obvious by how he has treated @jeffvegas with respect after shytting all over his design) I own the Ortofon 2M Black and if you think it stomps all over that Lyra then you obviously have something wrong going on (in your system or in your head) tough to tell which at this point. No matter what the price tags are on your current gear it has nothing to do with system synergy. If you are adjusting the tonearm and hear no difference and you say it's hard to adjust a VPI uni pivot for azimuth.... Well I'll save the insult here since you already stated that you have forgotten more about audio than the rest of us ever knew. Listen to jcarr. He will bend over backwards to help you. I know from personal experience. Not that you deserve it but I'll give you the contact again in case you forgot already. |
@jeffvegas On the one hand you say MOVING COILS ARE HIGHLY OVERRATED..And then you say I bent a cantilever on the Hana ML I had and it is either going to be repaired or replaced at the dealer. I'm thinking of just trading that Hana AND the Delos in on a KLEOS.Why would you try another MC if they are so overrated ? Given that you say I am extremely hard on Cartridges due to having a few beers and getting clumsy with the tonearm. My suggestion - stick to MM's with a replaceabe stylus - that way you can keep a couple of spare styli for the rough nights. Also dont forget Moving Iron cartridges like Nagaoka (MP500) and Soundsmith ( Soundsmith's stylus replacement cost is quite modest). |
In all seriousness, if you get your Lyra, whatever model (I own / owned Helikon stereos and monos, Kleos stereos and monos and an Atlas) dialed in correctly you will be rewarded hugely. Having said that, alignment, VTF and VTA need careful attention. Small adjustments in any of those parameters are audible to my ears. Not everyone is up to that attention to detail. I am because I flat love what I hear. Having said that, I have complimentary synergy at work in my system. Lyras fit the ticket. They might not with a system already tending to bright. |
I bent a cantilever on the Hana ML I had and it is either going to be repaired or replaced at the dealer. I'm thinking of just trading that Hana AND the Delos in on a KLEOS. I am extremely picky of my sound and maybe the Delos is too low end of a cartridge. Also, I am extremely hard on Cartridges due to having a few beers and getting clumsy with the tonearm. I will have the Delos inspected. My friend has a Kleos and told me I should have just by passed the Delos and gotten it. |
@jcarr while we have you here and helping, indeed advocating nice, can you look at the PM i sent you about Delos and a Triplaner. You marked my simple ? as “ spam “I asked Bruce H. my ever awesome dealer in San Diego and my recollection is he sent me to you. Bruce gets fine sound out of a VPI with a Delos, top line tube phono / pre, SS Vandy amp and Kento speakers….best sound i have heard out of a unipivot… so a vote for returning cart to Lyra for checkup |
Please, let's not dump on @jeffvegas . Audio is a hobby, with the analog field being particularly so. There is nothing wrong with having strong opinions and personal preferences. I would much rather have an audiophile who prefers MMs or MIs over MCs than an audiophile who doesn't listen to analog at all (smile). Ideally Lyra would receive back the Delos and find something amiss with it that explains what Jeff is having to go through. But as things are right now, with no indication of impaired tracking, or channel separation, or LP grooves turning grey/white, the cause is a mystery. |
Let me be second in line for the Delos. I will absolutely buy it for $500 right now if @phill55 falls through. Please. There's no reason for you to put up with that POS cart. I guess I could put up with it for a little while. OK, $750 because I'm doing you a favor. I hate seeing this kind of disappointment among audiophiles. It's too sad for me to take. Fewer than 250 hours? OK, $850 then, just because I'm feeling charitable. I have 5 Lyras and a sixth would help remove them from the market where they're doing all this damage. I don't know why I thought they sound so fantastic in my system when clearly I was so dead wrong. PM me with your PayPal address and let's put an end to the disappointment. |
I feel very bad for Jonathan Carr for stooping so low as to respond to the bottomless trench in which the OP obviously inhabits. These things develop so predictably. First what appears to be a reasonable plea for help and then a premeditated troll. I own a Lyra Etna Lambda and while value is relative, I know how superb it sounds and how much spine tingling hair-raised-up-on-the-back-of-the-neck thrill it gives me on a fairly routine basis. I also know how difficult it is for an Average Joe to properly set up a VPI arm with a microline stylus. But it is clear as the nose on Jimmy Durante's face (that dates me!) that the OP is either a troll or a victim of VPI's deficits or most likely, both. |
I remember when J.Carr posted on audiogon about this new design from Japanese company TOWING. Two models available: Suzaku and Seiryu *** It’s Coreless straight-flux system (read below): "As its name suggests, the coreless straight-flux system has no core material, with the left and right coils arranged in a V shape directly above the magnet. With that, the stylus tip picks up fluctuations in magnetic flux produced by the fine sound grooves, reproducing them into sound directly and thus accurately. This system does not generate any of the issues associated with MC cartridges, with which the coil output line moves irregularly within the magnetic flux and leads to sound disturbance, or with MM cartridges, with which responsiveness deteriorates due to a long magnetic path length. Moreover, this system shares the high level of maintainability of MM cartridges. The stylus (needle, cantilever, assembled magnets), coil, damper, and more, are all constructed of interchangeable designs, which allows stylus replacement at 1/10th the original cartridge price. The coreless straight-flux system is a singular technology that not only retains the advantages of existing MC and MM cartridges but also eliminates the drawbacks." As a matter of fact I hope some designer builds a balls to the wall Moving Magnet. Like a 5k dollar moving magnet. I’ll buy it. @jeffvegas unfortunately it’s $14k - $16k and you can read this review or that review. The coreless straight-flux system adopted for the SERIYU “Blue Dragon” was conceived by Hiromu Meguro, former design assistant of the Grace F-8 cartridge and principal designer of F-9 cartridge, when he was with Shinagawa Musen Co. Mr. Meguro worked on the basic designs of the TX-1000 and Dragon CT players and on the design of the Center-Search mechanism during his time at Nakamichi Corp. Then, the notion that moving magnet (MM) cartridges were inexpensive and moving coil (MC) cartridges were of higher grade pushed to the back of Mr. Meguro’s mind this system’s concept, which was categorized as an MM device despite dramatic differences compared with conventional MM cartridges. This system, which fell short of commercialization even in analog audio’s heyday, is being revived thanks to today’s state-of-the-art technology. MC’s are COMPLETELY overrated. I think modern MC cartridges are overpriced for sure, but they have so many fans worldwide, while few people aware of something new on MM territory (like TOPWINGS for example), anyway those new Coreless Straight-Flux cartridges priced accordingly for their buyers (very expensive). My ortofon 2m black blew the Hana and Lyra out of the water!!! MOVING COILS ARE HIGHLY OVERRATED. Many people are happy with the same Ortofon model, if you prefer an MM cartridge over more expensive MC it’s fine and nothing wrong with that. I don’t know why people trying to prove something to you. Having different cartridges it’s fun and not all cartridges are good to our ears. In my opinion there are many better MM than Ortofon, but most of them are discontinued models, you know than MM era is gone, the best MM designed and made in the 80’s. I’ve been looking for them for many years, compared them to more expensive modern MC and quite happy about the sound! If you prefer MM it’s fine. Some of my absolute favorite MM are: AT-ML180 OCC, AT-ML170 OFC, Grace LEVEL II and F14 (Sapphire, Ruby, Boron, Ceramic, Beryllium versions), Pioneer PC-1000 mkII, Stanton CS-100 W.O.S. , Pickering XSV/5000 and 7500. You don’t have to pay $5k for a decent MM, most likely $1k - $3k for the ultimate MM, but It must be a NOS unit to blow your ba**s away. As you can see for something revolutionary new (MM) they want over $14k today, welcome to the High-End world. |
My ortofon 2m black blew the Hana and Lyra out of the water!!! MOVING COILS ARE HIGHLY OVERRATED.. Tubes cannot have frequency extension like a transistor. Mr Atmosphere, I sold your amps back in the 90's at a dealer in Southern California. Had a pair of your OTL's running the top of my Vandersteen 4a's. Nice amps, but they were NOT a neutral sounding amp and DID NOT HAVE the air and transparency of their solid state equivalent. |
There is the problem. I would not recommend this cartridge to anyone unless you have tubes which roll of highs and add body and warmth to the sound.We spec our all-tube phono section to 100KHz. Tubes can go much higher; color TVs in the old days had to have 10MHz response in their chroma amps... bandwidth isn't the issue! Tubes can go just as high as transistors. MC's are COMPLETELY overrated.Just for the record (if you'll pardon the expression) your Hana is a MC cartridge as well. That's not the problem. Since the Hana worked so well for you, I'd be inclined to think that there may be a problem with the cartridge itself, which can happen- its happened to me in the past. Before you sell it off at a loss, take it back to the dealer and have it checked out or replaced. I would also check with Lyra to make sure your arm is considered compatible with the cartridge. The cartridge has compliance and the arm has mass; together they make up something called 'mechanical resonance' and that must fall between 7-12Hz or Bad Things happen. |
"When I heard a Demo of the Delos it was on an all tube system. Mine is solid state. There is the problem. I would not recommend this cartridge to anyone unless you have tubes which roll of highs and add body and warmth to the sound. " Perhaps your tonearm is not damped enough. It takes a while to dial it in. Try a lower tracking force. |
Can we keep the old, boring, and endless MC vs MM/MI debate out of this thread, 3 easy?There does seem to be a consensus already that the OP’s experience with the Delos cartridge is very atypical and that he might want to consider having the cartridge inspected for defects. Now he was invited to do that by the guy that makes the cartridge. You can’t do better than that as an endpoint. |
