LOOKING TO MAKE A TURNTABLE CHANGE, HOPEFULLY AN IMPROVEMENT
I started with a VPI Scout, and then upgraded to a VPI Scoutmaster. I find the sound of my CD collection to be superior. Vinyl advocates insist that I am missing the boat and claim vinyl delivers the sonic goods. I was advised that the acrylic platter that came with my Scoutmaster was the reason the sound was not up to par. The cost to upgrade the Scoutmasster with a steel platter and bearing is $1000.00. Not looking to spend any more money with VPI. Not knocking their products, just have spent much money with them with less than expected results. Assuming I wish to listen to my 180-200 gram vinyl recordings I am looking for alternatives. I wish to stay loyal to my audio dealer who is always there to help me. He sells Project, VPI and Thorens. I would sell my Scoutmaster which should net me about $1000.00, and I would put $1500.00 of my own money toward a new turntable. Any thoughts? Thank you in advance. Note: I am sure VPI makes a wonderful product, but I have not perfsonally had a great audio experience.
I had the complete opposite of what you described. I spent a LOT on CD playback, especially on the DAC. I enjoy buying and playing CDs. They are clean, but a bit smeared compared to vinyl. Subtle dynamics and soundstage are lost with CDs. subtle details are lost in the "noise floor" where vinyl details are present through that slightly higher noise floor. In spite of all the money I've spent, I'll never be able to say that good CDs sound as good or better than good vinyl.
Was happy with my Marantz separates until I bought a used Project TT. Thinking why doesn't the vinyl sound better than my Cd's like everyone says, I bought a Scout with black mm2 cart and a phono pre or two, still not as good as my Cd's. Then I read I need a dedicated two channel system for vinyl, so I added a Parasound A21 and P5 and with the theater bi- pass which allows to continue enjoying my Marantz.
After the Vincent Pro 8 and a Parks Audio Budgie phono pre I went for the Decaware ZP3 all tube, badass, handmade phono pre.
Conclusion, after $4k or $5k just to play vinyl I can say the records can be as good and certainly different, maybe a little fuller, but I can never say it sounds better than my Cd's. If you have to spend $10K to get to par with digital sound i isn't worth it for me as I am just a working guy. But I enjoy buying and playing records, And the Parasound A21 provides more balls when I need it so it's all good but Ill never say records sound better.
I used to read this forum a lot more than I do now. This thread is a perfect example of why.
OP hasn’t said what’s wrong with his system, or really even shared much about his equipment. Yet several supposed experts are telling him to go spend thousands on their favorite TT, cartridge, to warm or tweak. I’m a little surprised nobody has suggested he change interconnects or power cords. And, even worse, some of you are arguing over who has a better solution to this unknown problem.
Instead of of trying to one-up each other, try to help him. IMO before anyone can help, the key question is what’s wrong with the sound? What’s better about the digital in comparison?
There is so much in table set-up and tweaks. We can recommend until we're blue in the face. But in the end, all that may REALLY be needed are some good tweaks that will help your existing system perform at a higher level. Cones under the plinth, motor vibration isolation, [maybe] a different platter. careful leveling and cartridge setup. Maybe a different cartridge....
All these tweaks can help significantly improve your existing [potentially much better than average] vinyl playback system.
Another thought is to keep your existing table and for a little more than you have budgeted buy a Vibraplane, which will significantly improve this and any future turntable you buy.
+1 for George Merrill's Super12 PolyTable. George's PolyTable designs reap the benefits of his Merrill-Wiliams 101.3 Turntable. Check it out on: http://hifigem.com/
kjl, my experience is this: Digital quality is very good. But to obtain something better via vinyl will take vast amounts of money. To have good vinyl you need (1) near perfect speed rotation - easier said than done (2) freedom from vibration - easier said than done (3) a quality tonearm - easy to do but very expensive (4) a good quality MC cartridge - very expensive (5) a good quality phonostage - again expensive. One of my two vinyl rigs excels my digital system but frankly it is not the most insightful use of money.
Get a Linn Sondek! It makes beautiful music! I'm onto my third one! Had two previously and missed the "musicality" of these venerable TT's! Matches well with my Rogers LS3/5a's!
Let's not feed the troll. As @stereo5 reported about his previous posts, his current trolling does not indicate he has changed. He does not seem interested in constructive comments.
@stereo5 I believe wcfeil is William Feil, the same person who once posted under the name "audiofeil". He is back after a long absence. Some of his posts in the past have been abrasive though I have been told he is actually a nice enough person in real life.
My experience is that if you want great sound from LP's, you have to drop some serious cash to get there.
I started with the Rega Rp6 with the Exact 2 cartridge, Pass Labs XP15 phonostage (Solid State) and Conrad Johnson ET5 preamp (tube) and Conrad Johnson monoblocks.
I couldn't believe how bad the sound was, so I checked with my dealer. He basically said that I needed to spend a lot more; thousands more, or get out of the record business.
I ended up getting a Rega RP10 with the Apheta 2 cartridge and a Clear Audio Smart Matrix Pro record cleaning machine. I think the record cleaning machine had as much to do with the sound improvement as the RP10. But, now I am happy. Everything sounds great, and good recordings on LP sound way better than good recordings on the Oppo Modwright 105 CD player (which sounds pretty good on its own).
I’ve played golf with people who have played for 50 years and never broken 80. If experience equated to expertise, all we would need is time. That’s why that’s a condescending post.
VPI "feet" are not very effective. The tweak of choice seems to be placing VPI tables on Stillpoint cones or Bear Claws. The differences are obvious and positive.
My suggestion is to try this tweak before spending money on major upgrades or a different table. Rest the table on cones alone. Adjust the height of the motor on Vibrapod pucks or a paperback book or a paperback book on Vibrapod pucks, if necessary. If the tweak works for you, remove the VPI feet completely to improve the table even more improvement.
Might also experiment with placing the table on cones facing up with a maple butcher block under the cones on top of your current shelf.
Between your dealer’s VPI, Project, and Thorens, sticking with that Scoutmaster is really the best choice. Sound like you’ve perhaps got a bad mechanical/electrical mismatch somewhere in the chain, or a significant cartridge/arm setup issue, or maybe the cartridge itself isn’t up to snuff.
I got into vinyl 11 years ago with a used SOTA Star, Fidelity Reasearch arm, used Dynavector P75 phono stage, and new Benz Glider L2 cartridge for 3200 bucks total outlay - and it annihilated the digital options in that price range, at that time (killed my Meridian G08). This should still mostly be the case, if you get good matches & alignments, and a good enough cartridge.
I have a buddy running a Scoutmaster with 3D arm, Ortofon Jubilee, Rogue Ares, and he prefers it to the PS Audio DirectStream DAC.
You can get a 401 and a base with a Jelco tonearm which would be a huge improvement, then upgrade to a great arm like Graham, Triplanar, Kuzma, EMT etc for another huge improvement.
My Garrard 301 was one of the best changes I made to my system, although upgrading a Rega tonearm to a Basis Vector tonearm was a close second.
Not listened to the new VPI stuff. I run a Triplanar 7, Dynavector 507 II, Basis Vector, and Hadcock 242 which after 55 years in the hobby are the end of the line for me.
HiFiMan5 - When I changed to the aluminum (Classic) platter the improvement was dramatic. What do you like about the acrylic??McFeil - have you listened to the VPI3D/2nd pivot? or the Fat Boy??
Have you thought about going the Garrard 301-401 / Thorns rim drive tables and get a custom plinth made and arm installed. I did this a couple years ago went from an oracle delphi mk4 to a Garrard 301 set up and never been happier. there is much room for upgrading this set up as well. Your should be able to get started with in your budget and upgrade from there.
The original 9 and 10 were just plain underachievers. I owned both.
Calm down all you VPI fanboys. None of their products compete with the Triplanars, Grahams, Micro Seikis, Fidelity Researches, Basis’, Reeds, Dynavectors, etc. of the world.
I agree with the majority of the posts- the acrylic platter is NOT what is holding you back - the Scoutmaster is a good table and arm. NO reason to go with the s/s version platter- spend the money on the outer ring clamp and you WILL get better performance. Upgrade the cartridge ( depending on what you have) and have someone that knows what they are doing set it up for you properly and you will be suitably impressed with vinyl. Phono cable and loading of the Thor will also be areas to look into for better performance. Good Luck!
IMO, there's one way to do this - Have your dealer give you a real demo and then you will know whether upgrading your table will make a difference to what you hear. You will or you won't. You are approaching this as if something is wrong because you think your digital sounds better than vinyl, which is an incorrect premise, IMO. There may well be something wrong with your turntable that is causing a sonic issue, but if not, a VPI, decently set up should be sounding very, very good at minimum. I used to have a Music Hall MMF5 turntable that cost me about $700 that sounded very good even compared to my 10k digital player. So set up a demo and let your dealer show you why you should or shouldn't upgrade your turntable.
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