Congrats @earworm22 the Sugden will serve you well. Glad it checks your boxes and as you get to know the sound, there will be more in store. Best wishes.
Looking for recommendations for integrated with a more “organic” sound.
Hello all,
I hope that you are all doing well, and that I might tap into your collective knowledge base and experience to find a new amplifier.
Current system includes Bluesound Node2>Denafrips Enyo>Dayens Ampino>Zu DW6 Superflys. I stream probabaly 95% but maybe 5% is vinyl or CD. I sometimes use it to watch movies in 2.0, but that’s not my main concern.
I’m really enjoying the sound of this setup. Very organic with nice harmonic richness. Surprisingly good bass extension and smooth and pleasant highs. Imaging is good.
What I would like to do is preserve that natural and organic sound, while also adding more inputs (Ampino only has 2) improving bass definition/control and impact, and perhaps elevating detail retrieval. I would trade a bit of smoothness for a bit more HF extension. A basic remote is also on the checklist.
My budget is maybe $2500, but I’m not in a desperate position, I could potentially stretch it a little if I wait.
New units are preferred, but I would consider used if it achieves my goals.
I’m open to SS or tubes, but cost of the tubes is a concern. I’m susceptible to tuberoll-itis. Speakers are pretty sensitive, so mega-watts are not required.
The system is in a medium sized living room which has 9” ceilings and is open to a kitchen and dining room, so there’s lots of volume. Most listening is at moderate volumes, but I’ve been known to crank it on occasion. Musical tastes are extremely varied.
basically, I’m looking to maintain the organic tone and natural presentation while improving performance, adding input options (3 minimum) and adding remote.
I don’t want a DAC, but a better-than-basic phono stage would be a bonus. I’m more interested in performance than features.
Is there anything out there that might fit the bill?
Thank you in advance for your input.
Tom
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Hi everyone, Not that anyone is still reading this post, but just in case I figured I would let you know that I went with a (used) Sugden signature A21 (not the SE). So far, it pretty much checks all my boxes - nice warmish presentation, harmonic richness without mushy romanticism, not harsh but extended and reasonably detailed HF, good bass with a bit of low bass bloom, and the midrange is just lovely. Decent remote for volume control and a good built in MM phono stage complete the picture. I think it is a great match for the Zu's for my listening preferences. Thanks for the suggestions! Happy listening! |
As @mdalton posted, the Synthesis Roma 96DC is an excellent choice. I have had several synthesis amps, both integrated and mono blocks, and their warm, organic, engaging sound captivates me. |
Thank you @dvujovic ! I agree completely on the ACRH3. It really is a solid musical amp. I also heard that slight hiss, I noticed it when no music was playing, and between tracks. I was able to reduce that somewhat by swapping out the stock input tubes. I’m really sort of reluctant to sell it. Just trying to condense my gear a bit. And truth be told, I’m itching for a TT upgrade 😁
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Like @doyle3433, I also have the Margules ACRH-3 hybrid integrated amp and I absolutely love it. Wonderful detail and works equally well with both analog and digital sources. One thing I should mention is that with the phono stage I do hear a bit of hiss when I get my ear really close to my speakers, but I think a bit of tube-rolling will eventually solve it. I don't really hear it when I'm listening from my chair but the AR in me (anal-retentiveness) wants to eliminate as much of it as I can. You should be able to find a used unit within your price range. And while I was doing a quick search for you - holy smoke - @doyle3433 is selling his! That's a tremendous deal and I'd jump on it quick!! |
I loved the Ampino so much I now have Ampino separates. The preamp has a remote, though I never use it. I use them with DeVore Super Nines and I have no complaints with sound. Really love the Dayens tone, and the separates bring a different level of clarity, for sure. That said, everything I have upstream does skew warm, ‘musical’, organic, etc. Maybe look into the Ecstasy Integrated?
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@chenry and many other Many recommendations here for Sugden A21 get me interested mainly because of its value proposition. I am always craving for Class A sound. There are several version here: A21 (23 wpc to 8 ohms), A21ai (25 wpc to 8 ohms), A21SE Sig. (30 wpc to 8 ohms; 40 wpc to 4 ohms) and, in particular, their bass performance is sort of mixed bag and distinctive from each other according to the reviews: (on A21ai) Even at their best, bass detail and drive were never among the A21ai’s strengths (Stereophile) (on A21SE Sig.) Bass is powerful, controlled (TONE Audio Magazine); What I do wish for is more bass quality - quality, not quantity (6 moons Audio); With this amp, it was not speaker slam I heard but musical bass with air and space around (Audio Beatnik); Sugden miss a little in the bass compared to the Arcam (user feedback) and list goes on and on. So, the bass performance on the regular A21 seems never being its strong suit and the bass on the more refined A21SE Sig. seems a mixed bag. I was not surprised by that because of the lower rated wattage into 8 ohms and NOT sustaining into 4 ohms (2 ohms is not reported) but wonder what is your listening experience?
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I can't direct you to an integrated, but there is a lot to be had for much less than $2500 if a Power Amp is considered. The Links Post 1683 with a Youtube Clip will give the impression of a Organic Sound, if we are on the same Hymn Sheet. The Links will show Two Builds that can offer the Organic Impression as I interpret it. One Build is Low Watt think SET Watts the other will drive almost any load. If aesthetics are not the main goal, either of these builds with a EE's help should come in at less than a $1000, leaving plenty for a Pre-Amp. All my Amp's used for many many years and up to the most recent are commission built for me, I have not looked back, when it comes to value vs performance, its a no brainer.
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I bought the McIntosh MA252 for that very reason... it's a totally analog amp, and it sounds great... it even has a subwoofer output jack... One consideration is that it's only 100 WPC, although it usually tests at around 125 WPC... but since I'm an Old Fogey now, it's loud enough for me... I just got tired of surround sound and computerized multi-channel receivers that took an advanced degree in computer electronics to master... the sound is smooth, rich, and yes, I would say, organic.... the only downside is the cost... you'd be hard pressed to find one used for less than $3,500... |
Cambridge Azur 851A. Class XD (bet. class A & B). No phono but Stereophile referenced it with Class A traits. It throws a ’sweet’ sounding and ’bouncing’ bass at low volume level in my room compared to my other Class AB Parasound PA. I experienced that quality of sounds also with Accuphase A75 (Class A, $32k new, $15k used). Amazing stuff.
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Hi all, Some very interesting suggestions here. Thank you all for your contributions. As for Yamaha, I actually just sold off my A-S1200 as it does not pair well with my Zu's IMHO. Sounded much better with the Wharfedales I had previously. The midrange is much too thin and it lacked low bass weight for me. I didn't mention it before, but I am not looking at class-D at the moment. The one amp I tried was impressive in many ways, but an even worse match and after talking to the manufacturer, he agreed that high impedence speakers tend not to pair as well with some class-D amps. With different speakers, however, I could definitely understand the advantages of a well-implemented class-D design. Cheers! |
It’s interesting that not many people around here appear to be have turned on to the Lyngdorf approach to Class D design. There are too many different aspects of how their TDAI integrated amps are both different and innovative to mention w/o writing a real long winded post. But I will mention their Room Perfect software because I read so many reviews and articles before I dropped the bucks and It’s almost unanimous that they do it better. The results allowed my speakers to really sing. The way it integrates bass, especially, is like wow in effect. Ok, I will mention one more unique feature and that’s their “voicings”. I would call it an audiophile version of tone control. The vast majority of the time I leave mine on the Focused (listening position) and Neutral setting, which is like the name imlpies neutral, because I get a very nice and balanced sound out of my equipment. But the Voicings allow me to add more bass or more bass x2 and it’s entirely innovative, how they do it … not by adding one iota of bass frequencies, but by employing a sound curve that takes some of the mid and higher frequencies out of the curve. It illustrates the curve on each of the settings. My understanding is that Peter Lyngdorf likes to call the TDAI amps a Power Dac and that the electronic design is the equivalent of a wire with gain, how it operates in the real world. This is not your father’s Class D. And very interesting that more folks haven’t turned on to the innovative approach because it’s uniquely cool. There’s a little brother and big brother, essentially, and they both produce exactly the same sound excepting that the big brother has both more power and more adaptability. Reason I shared all of this is that a number of the reviewers commented on how organic the sound is, which seems to match what you’re looking for. |
Ive been in the hobby for 6+ decades. Done my share of tube and class A/AB. I moved to class D over 10 years ago with W4S, PS Audio, and of late a EVS 1200 by Ric Schutz, based on dual IcePower AS 1200 modules and lots of his special pixie dust. I also have a LSA Voyager GaN 350. Both are exceptional amplifiers, regardless of type |
That's a very good point @tweak1 I am intrigued by the Technics. I think the 700 and it's bigger brother are fine looking pieces and from what I read, sound wonderful. I've been hesitant to try a class D or any variation, maybe I'm showing my age.. Maybe I'm just sitting on the fence about them until i feel confident that they've worked out all the bugs and are here to stay. |
That is a good question. It is recommended when changing tubes. So that is 2,000 hours for the 6550WE tube and 4,000 hours for a 6922 power tubes. They say a technician. I saw the procedure it is not hard. But there is high voltage inside the chassis long after the power is disconnected. I think they do not want anyone to electrocute themselves. When I was working that would have been about every 2.5 years. |
I hesitated to mention this because of its cost. But it fits so well with the sound quality you are looking for and is a very high quality component. Maybe you could take your time and look for a used unit: Audio Research I-50 ($6K new). Even if you decide you could not afford one, I highly recommend finding an audio store where you can listen to one. It would at least make an outstanding reference for you to judge other units. |
@jetter Thank you my friend. My system is always a work in progress and it works for me. Other than the music itself, I really enjoy the process of hunting down, researching and getting to audition gear. The two prints I have hanging are from my dad’s old office. He was a steam locomotive fan. My brother and I have many fond memories visiting museums and attending train shows with our pop. I believe one is a Berkshire class, the other I can’t remember off hand. I’m not sure if they were considered to be in the big-boy class. You gave me an excuse to do some research! |
@mboldda1 Yes, the Norma IPA-140 usually sell for around $4k in top level condition. I did let the OP know that it was slightly over his budget but in return you receive top level sonics and build quality that few new < $10k integrated amps possess. |
I will add an anecdote from my own experience. When I picked up my Volti Razz speakers from Greg of Volti, we listened to music well into the night. First it was on a pair of prototype flagship's he has been working on to update the Vittora. A top hifi experience in my life for sure. He switched between Border Patrol power and a Cary SLI80HS. Then we did the same with a pair of Razz. Both power units sounded excellent to my ears. The control, the sweetness and refinement, the musical and open soundstage. What struck me was what I can only describe as the presence of the human voice floating in the room, right in front of me. The chest cavity sound of male voice.. Were there differences between the two amplifiers, sure. But were the differences necessicaily negative, not in my book. As I understand it the price difference between the Border Patrol and the Cary is about $5k.. I was so impressed with the synergy between the Cary and the Volti I ordered my own. I am thrilled I tell ya! I look at it like this. Would I love to have a Porsche GT3 RS? You bet your sweet ass I would! However what I can afford is a Mazda MX-5 from the 2000's and a Triumph TR6 from the 70's. This does not diminish my enjoyment in the least, in fact I might argue that i enjoy them more since I've wrenched extensively on both of them, and I don't have a panic attack while driving, afraid someone immersed in their phone is going to hit me. As my daddy used to say... "It's more fun to drive a slower car quickly, than a fast car slowly". Anyway what do I know, I'm just a guy who likes pie. |
Respectully, the above statement is untrue. Certainly there are better devices at various escalating price tiers, but to say the OP’s efforts are futile to try to improve his/her system at the stated budget isn’t helpful and just isnt true. There are gains to be made and there have been many helpful suggestions.
@doyle3433 unfortunately, there are no Lebens at or even near the OP’s stated budget. Additionally, no inboard phono stage on any Lebens.
@earworm22 hang in there. You can accomplish your goal, just be patient. Find a Naim, Sugden, Rega and perhaps even a Unison Research in your price range with a phono stage. Buy from a reputable seller and recognize that many here are chirping their own gear or exercising that their definition of great is better than everyone else’s. With the Zu speakers, a little current will benefit the tonal balance and whatever you end up getting doesn’t have to be your final destination. You will learn along the way what checks your boxes and will inform your future upgrades. Everyone’s advice, especially mine, is worth exactly what you are paying for it….zero. Some is worth less than zero…LOL. |
I love how people want a better piece of equipment and then they give you the budget and it’s WAY TOO SMALL TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE and you can’t have better for that price! if your budget is $2500 that means the damn thing cost $500 to build there is zero room in that budget to make anything but the chassis of a good piece of equipment with no room in your budget for any electronics to go inside at audio grade levels! if you want a decent integrated amplifier, you need a budget of at least 10-20 grand. I’m sorry anything under that your getting av receiver Best Buy level parts. |
I have a Margules ACRH3 hybrid integrated. IMO has a beautiful organic sound, musical and solid. The MM phono preamp is excellent. It’s been discontinued as Margules has rolled out a new version, ACRH4. |
@mboldda1 I’m with you. Reading AND math skills fail! At least the Sugden suggested can be found used for the $2500 and possibly a bit more stated by OP. |
A used KRELL k300i integrated at around $5-6k is a Class A (mostly) with a smooth buttery sound, with decent details, and powerful. The DAC module is OK and super convenient. It also has great ROON READY integration with built-in RJ45 streaming. You can improve on both the DAC and streamer (go fibre). However, that would not be an essential thing to do since the DAC module is rather good. |
I am not sure what would or would not qualify as "organic." If you are looking for what some people term a "musical" as opposed to a precise presentation, then class A amps, Musical Fidelity A1 or possibly a Sugden A21 SE Signature might fit your description. The Sugden has only line level inputs, so no phono stage, and you would probably need a phono preamp if your turntable does not have one. The Musical Fidelity has a phono preamp. Neither amp has a lot of wattage--class-A and all-- but both are known to drive difficult loads well. I have a Sugden, running with a pair of JBL 4349s and am very happy with it. With Zu speakers, I would think you would have no problem. The Musical Fidelity is very well reviewed in its current version. I wouldn't worry about the heat factor, yes, they get warm, but if you aren't stuffing your amp inside a rack with no ventilation, it is no problem. I don't think it is much different than AB amps I have had (with more power.) |
