Looking for phono preamp suggestions

@almarg

Re the Luxman EQ-500, I note that depending on the selection between the two LOMC gain modes it provides it presents the cartridge with a load impedance of either 40 ohms or 2.5 ohms. While the OP’s 0.3 mv cartridge has a recommended load impedance of >100 ohms, and an internal impedance of 32 ohms. Doesn’t seem like a good match in either gain mode.

Hi Al,
I’ve become interested in the Luxman EQ-500 but I’m bedeviled by these load impedance specs and hope you can help me to make sense of them. I imagine 2.5 and 40 ohms refer to the primary impedance (if that's the right term) of the step up transformers, which are the first things seen by the MCs, at least according to the schematic in the manual. But I can’t be certain, and Luxman provides little info on its SUTs.

The question for me is how these numbers translate into actual cartridge use.

Now, the EAR MC-4 also denotes its four step-up options by impedance values (again, making little sense to me; I always think it terms of windings and gain) of 3, 6,12, and 40 ohms. These correspond to ratios of 1:30, 1:24, 1:18, and 1:10, respectively, for EAR.
I’m tempted to conclude that Luxman is denoting similarly with these impedance values. The 2.5 ohm setting would therefore suggest something like 1:32 or so; 40 ohms would imply 1:10. The actual load impedances for the cartridges would then be something like 50 and 470 ohms, respectively, for MC-Low and MC-High. Am I getting warm??

But the gain steps in the Luxman don’t correspond precisely what one would expect from those to those SUT windings. 1:32 would typically add around 30 db of gain--more than the 27db provided by the Luxman MC-Low option. And if the 40 ohm setting translates to 1:10, or 20db of gain, that’s little more than the 19db offered by MC-High. Perhaps some gain is lost because of other aspects of the Luxman circuit?

If all this wild surmise is valid, then the OP’s cartridge with internal impedance of 32 ohms at 0.3 mV, set at the MC-High setting (if it’s a 1:10 SUT) would see 470 ohms as a load, which may well be fine. The gain might be a little low, though, at 59db (default 36 + 4 from gain knob + 19 from the SUT). Seem right?


I am tempted by this phono stage, at least for an audition, but first I’d like to be able to predict how it will work with various cartridges. You’re just the man to ask. Thanks in advance.


Bill

I heard a very nice Doshi v3 used at a local dealer. I think the used price was around your budget. I believe that the version for sale was balanced, but that some of the v3 are single ended. It was out of my price range, so I only listened through it for about 20 minutes, but it was really quite fine.

Got the Lyra Etna lambda sl catridge to pair with the van den hul the grail Se phono stage ( which is current amplifying) . The match is perfect . Am in vinyl bliss . Also got the Nessie vinyl master record cleaning machine which makes vinyl cleaning a breeze. Thanks everyone in helping me attain what I intended to . 

Thanks everyone for your advices. I have decided on getting a van den hul , the grail Se version .
it seems to meet my requirements the most .Will report on how it sounds in my system soon . 
thank you 

Don Sachs makes and excellent phono stage.  He builds them one at a time.  He is known for repairing vintage tube gear.  I would be willing to bet he would build you a Balanced phono stage.

Agree with slimpikins5-  Whest stages are great. James is easy to work with. Very good VFM and provide a very clean, dynamic insight into what's on the record. I was a Titan Pro user for years but have recently upgraded to the MC Ref V - it's whole new world....

I have been using two phono stages from Whest Audio in England.  I have a customized PS30 RDT SE 2019 and it just blew several other phono stages I had been testing.  It's Single in Balanced out, but James may be able to customize the input if you were interested.  

I would suggest that you read his website customer reviews, there are hundreds and you can get the flavor of what each of these customers had been using prior to buying the Whest preamp, you'll get an idea of how these perform against many other preamps out there.

@newtoncr:
I have forgotten to mention that I listened to a couple of phono stages before and also owned some of them .....incl. Aesthetix Rhea, ARC PH 5, PS Audio GCPH, ARC Ref.PH 2, Trigon, Jadis, etc. - they all didn't give me quite what you are looking for - sweetness/magic/romance .....the Octave Phono Module delivered exactly these things plus black background and less noise overall.....and tremendous flexibility!

Best,
Carlo

My vote would go to an Octave Phonomodule! The big advantage beside it's sonic performance is that it can be configured as needed by the user! This implies approx. 10 different input modules, either RCA or XLR, either with step-up-transformer or not, either MM or MC. There are also different output modules available, either RCA or XLR, either with tubes (direct drive) or solid state. 
It can be further enhanced with separate "black box pre" ...."Black Box" is a kind of external capacitor which Octave is famous for especially for their power amps!
The design is more or less tubes (4) which allows to adjust for personal taste. There have been many rave reviews in the past, also in the US.
As it is a product from Germany it may be more difficult to get an audition in the US but it's worth to give it a listen IMO (I own one since almost 9 years and am very satisfied with the sonics and it's flexibility which can be changed if demanded)
Price starts at approx. 4400€ for the main unit and you can add your modules as needed!
My personal preference is the mc input module with step-up-transformer built in and switchable, it's also available with XLR termination! (the preferred Phono version by the CEO of Octave, Andreas Hofmann..btw!)
This is quite a good review although its an rather early one.  https://www.tonepublications.com/review/review-octave-phono-module-preamplifier/
Hope this gives you an additional option for upgrading your phono system.
Best regards from Austria

P.S. My system: Nouvelle Platine Verdier with Graham Phantom II, Ortofon Jubilee, Octave Phonomodule, ARC Ref.5SE, ARC Ref.75, ARC Ref. CD9 SE, Loricraft PRC 2 Vinyl cleaner, Focal Utopia Diablo Speakers, HMS Gran Finale Jubilee interconnects and power, Shunyata Andromeda speaker cables, 2x PS Audio P5, Synergistic Research Quantum Orange Fuses, Audiophile Base Starbase stands (UK)

For $16k, the Sutherland looks very expensive for relatively few cheap parts. 

bleeds - what are the advantages and at what output voltage range can it help most. Are these phono stages inherently more expensive? It never came up in any conversation when I was looking for my phono stage. I'm thinking it is high end - big $$ feature.

This discussion brings up a question about balanced vs single-ended RCA outputs for mm/mc preamps in general. I understand how a balanced topology works and why, and my whole digital path is balanced, but not the phono stage (my Rega table doesn't have balanced outs). Why are there relatively few balanced options for vinyl as compared to other components?

Skypunk got it right.  I also now use a Stellar phono pre and I was actually shocked at the improvement over my Lamm LP2.1 Deluxe, costing 4 times as much.  First, it has XLR and RCA, and the PSA designer cared less about measurements and more about listener involvement and SQ and it very much shows. Not sure how the Stellar will pair with the Ayre, but I do know that right now in the phone preamp market, it is the best value and best sounding phono preamp (at least to my ears in my system) under $10-$15K.   

Thank you , 
I will check the ps audio 

Further to my previous response and suggestion to look at PS Audio. Attached is a link with a number of reviewers comments.

https://www.psaudio.com/products/stellar-phono-preamplifier/#tab-reviews

Just to be clear, I am not connected with PS Audio in any way. In my own system I am using Sutherland Duo and it is very good. However it is a nuisance to adjust for impedance and gain as the covers have to be removed and the dip switches adjusted manually. Whereas with the PS Audio it can be done with the remote that comes with it.

As for Ron, my experience in dealing with him echos the other respondent in this thread, he is a wonderful warm person. 
The PS is listed for $2499.

Thanks 

Hi

i suggest trying the new PS Audio Stellar Phono Amp. They have gone direct so you will pay approximately 50% less, and it can be returned within 30 days no questions asked. 
More importantly it is receiving rave reviews across the board from a number of the most influential and trusted audio writes out there including Michael Fremer from Stereophile. 
I would not make a Purchase based on the reviews of one reviewer, but when there are multiple reviews with similar findings, you should feel comfortable. 
Michael Fremer Uses Uber expensive DartZeel phono and powered amps and he conceded  the Stellar was comparable in the mid-range,  but not quite in the highs  and lows. Further he recommended anyone looking for a phono amp in any $$$ range should listen to it. 
Good Luck

Jerry 

Glad to hear Ron helped you out Newtoncr. He is a great guy and by the way answers his own phone and is very generous with his time. Totally down to earth, unpretentious and says he isn't an expert on everything, (but I believe he was one of the founders of Martin Logan and in the past has designed and built amps and preamps). Not a big expensive cable fan.

CLeeds - So what are the advantages of balanced inputs or outputs for a phono stage and what does it mean? At what output does it become more beneficial? Are they at the high end of the cost range? My cartridge has an output of .65, which seems kind of high for a MCC and my Sutherland Insight is not balanced (apparently - but the topic never came up), but tremendously improved the sound quality over my previous PS.

avid pulsare II (it has xlr i/o)

Ron Sutherland replied to my query about balanced input saying he’s going to release an upscale version of phono loco with balanced input and balanced output at 16,500 .
that brings it to the same price range as van den hul grail se version and boulder 1108.
tried to contact the boulder dealer and was not very impressed with the interest they showed ( they don’t have any phono stages on demo for me to listen to ). So now inclining towards vdh and now Sutherland.
has anyone compared the vdh and Sutherland. Would love to hear some first hand experience. Thanks 

After several attempt to find the sound I was looking for I ultimately ended up purchasing an Icon Audio PS3 MKII phono preamp. The sound that this unit generates is nothing short of spectacular. The other bonus is tube rolling to adjust the sound to any finicky ear. All Icon Audio product are built like tanks and perform excellent. David Shaw and group are great folks to work with for any questions or clarification before and after purchase. Just my thoughts…………

sokogear

... why do you need balanced input and output? Or does if depend on the cartridge?

A phono cartridge produces very low output voltage and is inherently balanced, so there can be advantages to using balanced phono inputs.

I am not as knowledgeable as many of these contributors, but why do you need balanced input and output? Or does if depend on the cartridge? Doesn't the output of the cable from the turntable (cartridge/arm) just have a right and left interconnect?

Pass Labs XP27

I have spent many enjoyable hours listening to Lyra Etna ( non Lamda ) and it is a very linear non romantic cart - it does pair very well w ARC, BAT and Aesthetix. My choice in your $ is ARC for the FET / tube  Low noise solution.

hope you are enjoying your quest :-))

We have phono stages ranging from $1500 all the way up to 21k for the Gryphon Legato. In the price range you are talking about, nothing is like the Zanden 120. The RIAA curves are unique and it is a true balanced design. In comparison with its bigger brother, the 120  a solid state unit but has that same signature Zanden sound that is unmistakable.
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/zanden-audio-systems-120-phonostage/

Dealer disclosure
Kyomi Audio

You must consider something in the Allnic line.  LCR networks are the way to go.

Working in Europe and Singapore I get to hear 'millionaire' Hi Fi systems at hi end dealers and at shows (last year!). The two best phono stages I've ever heard (no I haven't heard them all) would be an Aesthetix IO which Is balanced in and out. The other is a Tom Evans Mastergroove SR
which is single-ended In and can be ordered with a balanced output.
 'Full disclosure' I loved the Aesthetix but was put off by the costs involved in keeping it supplied with the quantity of valves/tubes it needed. I ended up buying the Tom Evans SR and just love it's music making abilities. I have the 0.2 mV input with an Ikeda 'Kai' pick up. The Tom Evans 'Mastergroove' Is almost as good as the 'SR' for 60% of the price.

Sutherland does not have balanced input and output . They use the same tech as the grail .  Still deciding between boulder 1008/1108 and the grail sb/sb 

Check out Sutherland. That’s all he makes. I recently got a modest model and had some questions/needed an upgrade and Ron Sutherland himself helped me. Doesn’t care where his box has been purchased -he will support it. I think his models go from $900-$16,500. I think his and Van den Hul are top options.

I second the recommendation for a BAT phono stage.   An all balanced design, from input through to the output.  There are several models to choose from ranging from $3K to $12,500.  I own BAT electronics and they are fabulous.  Read up on their website at balanced.com to become more acquainted with their design philosophy.  The sound quality is exquisite and they are built exceptionally well.  I have gone through several great systems in my time and my current BAT products are certainly about the best I have ever owned.
Good luck, and do enjoy the music.

I’ve owned too many p-stages to count, and I think my Audio Research REF 3 blows away anything else I’ve heard.  Tubey in a good way: involving, high def, dimensional, but surprisingly authoritative.  Injects life into the sound.  Like a Chinook tonally, but with bass and jump factor.  I paid $10k for a demo model.  No affiliation.  

prob not the answer you want hear, but if you want the improvements you say you want. i would suggest moving to a better dynavector cart - like an xx2 or tkr, or a lyra or AT art9

your ayre px5e is not an artifically sweet sounding unit but it very clean very smooth, no harshness at all, you could go zesto or chinook or another tube pre but it may well introduce noise - your noise floor is VERY low right now, don’t screw that up

instead, get a sweeter cartridge that resolves detail and images better and has more subtly

@newtoncr ,
both Boulder 1008/1108 vs Van den Hul the Grail SB seem to be excellent choices, but they're using different technologies.

Generally speaking, in a cartridge the more coiled wire turnings, the greater both the voltage output and internal impedance.  Likewise, the less coiled wire turnings, the lower both the voltage output and the lower internal impedance.

Like the Boulder, most mainstream phono stages amplify the "voltage".  So generally speaking, the lower the output cartridge voltage, the more the phono stage has to increase/multiply which in turn often lead to more distortion.  

The VDH Grail uses a much rarer form of amplification - "current".  The lower the internal impedance, the greater the current (Ohms Law).

So in a nutshell, the lower the cartridge's output voltage (associated with lower internal impedance), the greater the VDH current (a good thing) or the greater the voltage must be magnified by the Boulder (a potential bad thing - multiplying any distortion).  This doesn't necessarily mean that one is better than another, rather, your cartridge output may be an influencing purchasing factor.

FWIW, I recently purchased the VDH Grail SB because of the "black" backgrounds and favor low output/low impedance cartridges: less coils > less magnetic resistance > faster cantilever > cleaner music. 




 

I have never heard "the grail", so I am not qualified to compare.  

What I do know, is that the Boulder 2008 is outstanding.  The 1008 has the same DNA... I believe,  the cartridge your after deserves a quality phono.

I use the following carts,
Otofon Anna
Strat V2
Hana ML

good luck,
Jose

I have narrowed my choices down to boulder 1008/1108 vs van den hul the grail sb.
between these 2 which one would suit me for my kind of music , which is vocals, jazz, acoustic music and classic rock 
thank u 

I second and highly recommend the Boulder 1008 or 2008.

I also own a DSA phono.  all the load settings (many options) are located in the front of the unit, and thus changes are easy and near-infinite.

The Ypsilon is another great option.

Good luck,
Jose

Tavish design...

Atmasphere MP3.

I just received a PJL hybrid phono preamplifier. Under 300.00, I'm really amazed at the performance of this New Jersey made phono preamplifier. 

Check them out

The Coda 06X has balanced inputs and outputs. This may be an option worth consideration. 

Boulder 5008!

BAT (balanced audio technology) VK-12SE all tube, tons of gain, quiet, fully balanced in and out. Sound incredible. Built like tanks. Music direct and MoFi carry the line. 

Lots of good suggestions, to which I will add the ModWright PH-150 Reference Phono. This is a tube MC/MM unit with two inputs: single ended and balanced. Running a Lyra Kleos SL LOMC with excellent results. Service and advice from Dan Wright are a big plus. 

PS Audio Stellar. Folks at Stereophile gushed over it and I am loving mine. 

@gestalt the van den hul seems very nice , what the price .
the others I am considering are boulder 1008/1108, Zestos Andros , 
Jeff Rowland i can’t find much on it .
which among the above would be the best match for my sme 30/2 with currently a Dynavector 17dx catridge and in future hopefully a Lyra Etna lambda catridge . I would love to save some money on a demo or preowned unit . I am inclined to solid state .
thanks 

Not sure, but if not, $hit can the XLRs and enjoy the music.