Hello Kjl1065, I have put together something that sounds great. I’ve compared it to MIT 770s and it is just as clear with great bass and is actually better in the treble.
Mapleshade Golden Helix 2
Anti cable
Run these sidebyside and connect them together to amp and speakers.
Both are solid core and in my experience, solid core sounds better as a speaker cable. Images are more focused. |
Blue Jean Cables. I am of the school that claim cables do make a difference. The differences are very dependent on the system. Proper AWG for speakers is important, and length makes a difference (mostly in rolled-off high end). Capacitance can be important, especially at very low signal levels (phono stage, for example). But if you are only shooting for 90%, anything will do. Blue Jean cables will get you to around 98%. |
Rolex are very accurate though not the most accurate there is, time to service it. It also has proven reliability and resistance to elements confirmed by those who wore them in faraway places. Rolex is in fact a performance choice.
I think, the OP is now enlightened beyond his tolerance, but cable subject is complicated, fun too. |
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Peter, I personally don't like wearing watches and so I don't unless I am some distance from civilization. No, not Rolex, I got 28 years old never serviced Orient automatic that keeps decent accuracy. But I would get Rolex Explorer II if I could and needed it, or Submariner. Or Breitling Chronograph.
Seiko must be kidding us - only 30 meters of waterproofness and glass case back. Military model ? But since they are very inexpensive I might just get it for fun and do some testing.
Pride of ownership.. Interesting concept, I think. Same with audio equipment, including cables. |
Herman,
Thank you for that heart felt apology. I can't speak for the rest of the idiots here, but it actually made me feel better about being an idiot. |
I’m sensing a lot of pent-up pseudo skepticism here.
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I have I owned some very very expensive cables (some approaching 5 figures at retail). I now use DIY cables, mostly balanced, that are 99.9 to 100% of the mega dollar cables.
I used to drink the cable BS coolaid but no more. High Dollar cabling is nothing more than legalized stealing from those that have not yet realized the psychological trance they are under.
Go read the Positive Feedback articles that discuss Western Electric / Dueland speaker connections and DIY Belden mic cable for ICs. I guarantee that you will not be disappointed. |
+1 for kahlenz
BJC Belden 5T00UP 10 AWG Speaker Cable will meet all the requirements we need & they have the best terminations available AND they are NOT expensive. Unfortunately, for some BJC has not discovered some of the voodo science (directional wire) called out on this thread so if you are a believer in that you will have to look elsewhere.
Save your $ and avoid the expensive audio bling and go with what you need, inexpensive wire that is built well. |
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I was an audio/video senior tech for 35+ years dealing with transmission. We handled all the major movie, TV, radio & production studios and sound/video quality was major part of the work. As for achieving 90% of the quality of extremely expensive cables on the cheap, don't know if that is really possible BUT I will say, in my opinion a lot of the advertising for the exorbitantly expensive cable is just B.S., they are not worth the prices being charged but I will also say that they are some less expensive cables (still very expensive) that are just as good. Consider that human hearing is not able to hear many things so why would you pay huge amounts for something you cannot hear? Also, as others have said, your best bet is buy high quality used cables which is what I have done in the past year or so at about 50% of their original cost. Once place I've dealt with a number of times is The Music Room, http://tmraudio.com/ , in Broomfield, Colorado. Their inventory of components & cables constantly changes and sometimes they have very good deals on speaker, power, and interconnect cables. Everything tested and guaranteed. They also buy & consign. |
+1 for letsmakeadeal and asbrd. Nice to see some reality-based posts on a cable thread |
Obviously the high end cables we’re talking about here are not intended for audio video applications or even for run of the mill audiophile systems or other relatively mundane enterprises. They are intended for highly tuned and refined high end systems capable of appreciating them. It’s like putting $2,000 wheels on a Schwinn from Target. Give me a break! Try putting them on a $6K bike or a $12K bike. |
How does a cable get outdated🙄, If it conducted well 30 years ago doesn’t it conduct well now?Sounds like fashion to me, have to keep up with the stylish trends… |
anyone who would spend $2k on a set of bikes wheels is crazy, same goes for the audio bling cable (speaker, interconnect, & power) pricing referenced on this forum. suggesting that these expensive cables actually make a difference to ANY system is simply not true and bad for this hobby we all enjoy. |
For almost all cables I would agree, except MIT. They have seriously improved signal transmission technology in their recent offerings. Most cables have slight variances in performance, but anytime I have used MIT cables, everything just sounded so much more realistic!
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Everyone has their own opinion about cables but we can all agree that the OP is requesting a unicorn
with that said I believe cables sound different but I don’t advocate spending a fortune on cables. I have tried many. I would suggest trying some offerings that have a return policy
and I strongly suggest you try something less pricey first. I can personally recommend signal cable for thier musicality and audio art for the all around quality and sound. Used is a perfect option as well
Those are just two off the top of my head.... |
azbrd
anyone who would spend $2k on a set of bikes wheels is crazy, same goes for the audio bling cable (speaker, interconnect, & power) pricing referenced on this forum.
>>>>You misunderstood. I was talking about $2K each. Carry on.
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whether its 2k for 1 or 2 does not matter, you are splitting hairs geoffkait.
As a FYI i had MIT cables in my system for a while, when i moved up to Maggie 20.7s i decided i did not want that MIT cable wart in the audio stream and replaced them with BJC Belden 5T00UP 10 AWG cables and could not hear any difference. The guys at BJC said the same thing, that i would not here any difference. I ended up selling the MIT cables which paid for my BJC cables and put a lot of $ back in my wallet. |
Some people can in fact not hear!
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I've been through some expensive cables and Signal Cables were as good or better than any plus considerably less expensive. |
analogluvr, "How does a cable get outdated🙄, If it conducted well 30 years ago doesn’t it conduct well now?" I was about to ask exactly those two sentences yesterday. I decided to skip them, at least in public. Expensive products should improve whatever they are placed on/with. Including bicycle wheels, clothes, and cables. Better wheels will make your bicycle lighter, etc. Dress in something really nice/expensive and you will look better. Why would not you expect improvement from cables even in lower-priced systems? If they really work as advertised. Unless you are King Louie. He’s reached the top, and he had to stop, and that’s what’s bothering him. EDIT: Oooops, not to end up accused of plagiarism like celander did not so long ago, above King Louie reference is almost identical and was taken from "I Wanna Be Like You" song from the original Jungle Book movie. I do not claim I wrote it myself, although I did change "I’ to "he" and "me" to "him". |
If you ride 200 miles weekly and or race it is certainly reasonable to buy a $2000 -$4000 wheel set for your bike. If you listen to music 20 hours or more weekly it is certainly reasonable to buy nice audio cables. What’s the problem? I do both and enjoy good wheels and wires. Yes...wheels and wires.
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@grannyring Agreed, thank god wires don’t wear out as quickly as wheels! I say this with the attendant hazard of taking this thread further down yet another rabbit hole. |
@glupson. The plagiarism police are everywhere. 😂😂 |
A thread on cables going down a rabbit hole? Gosh, really? How can that be? Am I hallucinating? |
I guess, with this thread, we’ve reached the bottom, and we have to stop, and that is what's bothering us.
(No lyricist worth anything would be caught alive admitting to have been involved with the creation above so, this time, I take ownership and responsibility)
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The stuff people believe... |
I'm putting a plug in for GroverHuffman cables which are extremely reasonably priced based on the manual labor cost of construction and immense complexity of their design (superior shielding, superior design, low capacitance, top comparable sound quality). We are talking $400/m more or less for ICs and A/C cables and $600-$1000 for speaker cables. He should charge more but he sells direct, 30 day money back guarantee, world wide distribution and 20 years in the business. I'm one of this beta tester's on design/materials and have auditioned many top name brands Nordost, Audioquest, Transparent, High Fidelity, Wireworld, Kimber, etc. against his wires at home and at audio shows. |
Although I have not heard cables that are $10,000, nor do I probably have a system or ears that could really hear the difference, my general experience in moving up the expensive ladder of audio gear is that most times, one is chasing a 10-15% difference in sound for many thousands of additional dollars. It is a diminishing return. Is the $10,000 amp twice as good as the $5,000 amp? highly unlikely. Is there an audible difference? Possibly. Whether that audible difference is worth twice the money is a personal choice. Do cables sound different? Many do, even at non-exotic prices. Can you get 90% of the performance of "super-exotic" cables for substantially less? Highly likely. Whether its cables, power amps, preamps or DAC's, I suspect that that 10% is a financial killer. Is it worth it? Its personal choice and disposable income.
If you have the bucks to blow on $50,000 power amp, $60,000 speakers, etc, maybe whether a 10% improvement in cables is worth another $10,000 is simply not a factor -- you want the best at any cost. But if you have a much smaller budget, seems to me that that 10% simply is not worth chasing. |
I’ve been involved with some pretty expensive systems at THE Show in Vegas. For example, one system with $100K Rockport Hyperion speakers, biamped with $60K worth of Tenor amps and just guessing $20K worth of Jena Labs Pathfinder cables and Shunyata cables. Best of show, best anyone ever heard at any show. Blush. Gee, maybe there’s something to this expensive stuff... 😬 Also, with John Curl and Bob Crump twice back when they showed their really expensive Blowtorch preamp, Bar B Q amp and a bunch of Bob’s Throbbing Gristle TG cables.
Conclusion: It all depends on what you’re trying to accomplish. If you’re trying to get best of show it’s probably best not to scrimp on the cables. |
My best ever system has been the Von Schweikert/VAC/Kronos at $1.4 million. The difference between a $50,000 system and it are HUGE!! The best ever system wasn’t 10-15% better, it was indescribably superior, like 200-300% better. It betters my $80,000+ system by 100%, at least and every other great system I’ve heard over the past decade at shows and stores. Sometimes the monetary difference does translate into very superior sound/music reproduction. Often it does not. Cables do matter but cost of cables don't necessarily relate to superior sound either, just like equipment and tweaks. Then there is system symbiosis, getting the equipment and tweaks to work together towards a goal desired by the listener. |
The cables for my favorite of all time system cost $400,000 and are made by Masterbuilt, a company distributed by the speaker manufacturer. They are expensive (and there were a lot of them in that system). Are they worth it? If they were necessary to achieve best ever sound system, then yes. |
fleschler
The cables for my favorite of all time system cost $400,000 and are made by Masterbuilt, a company distributed by the speaker manufacturer. They are expensive (and there were a lot of them in that system). Are they worth it? If they were necessary to achieve best ever sound system, then yes.
>>>>If the best mouse trap ever built cost $50,000 would that be worth it? |
It depends how smart the mouse is. |
I have a feeling you would know.
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Hi Kjl1065, You have a solid set up. However, as suspect you already realize - you are not maximizing the true potential of your components. Just like veins deliver the blood to muscles and organs - cables deliver electricity to capacitors, drivers and transformers. Either way the more juice the better the performance. What you need to wrap your mind around is that cabling is like having another component in your system. So you should abandon the idea that you are going to accomplish your goals for under 2K. It took me a long time to appreciate this fact. Ideally one would like to spend 25-30% on cables.
The retail amount of the components you have listed are about 45 - 50K . Based on that a retail cable budget would roughly about 15K. But it does not mean that you need to actually spend that amount if you are buying used and or NOS. Keeping this in mind, you do want to formulate a planned out, well informed direction so you are making an investment that will last a lifetime. If you are serious about having 90% performance in a less expensive package - And you are willing to make a realistic investment then this is the company to check out. They will be the last Interconnects, Speaker and Phono cables you will ever buy. If you find yourself leaning this way, I have two pairs of Thales interconnect Dealer Demos I will let go for 50% off retail. I upgraded to XLR versions. Best of luck Thales Precision Cables www.tonarm.ch
As far as Power Cables check out Analysis Plus Oval 2 Silver. www.analysis-plus.comNothing like a stage 3 Concept Cables, but they are a solid upper tier performer.
Stage 3 Concepts just to check out whats out there. www.stage3concepts.comI would also suggest a Power Distributor if and when you are ready: HB Cable Design www.hb-cable-design.com |
How does a cable get outdated? Fair enough question. Let’s see if we can figure this one out, shall we? Let’s count the paradigm shifts to see just how far behind the power curve some people are, shall we?
1. Oxygen free copper
2. High purity copper
3. Long crystal copper
4. Cable geometry optimization
5. High purity silver wire
6. Teflon and air dielectrics
6. New welding techniques and materials for connectors
7. Cryogenic treatment of cables
8. Controlled directionality of cables
9. Addition of graphene to cable conductor
10. Contact enhancers, e.g. silver/gold and graphene
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Don't forget that solidus lattice structures, wire, (OCC, etc)
Amorphous metals, with different structure....
Then liquid metal....
That all three are different in how they handle the delta of the complex physics of electrical function. That the OCC vs amorphous are very close on a 1 to 10 scale, like 1 and 2. Where the liquid is like a 8 or 10 in that scale -- in it's difference and distance from the other two.
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Uh, Teo, you’re not supposed to pump your own products here, you silly goose. I left liquid cables out on purpose to see if you’d react. 😬 I left off carbon cables, too. I could have mentioned lead conductors, fiber optic cables, and I’m reasonably sure I left some other variables out, too, MIT cables, gold tainted silver cables, etc.
pop quiz, what happens when you cryo liquid cables? |
A $50,000 mousetrap is overkill. It could be better but not 200-300% better than existing methods to kill mice. In audio reproduction, $50,000 to obtain 200-300% better sound is wildly appreciated if it can be done. As of now, I haven't heard a high end system which can improve that much for $50,000 unless it could be the Masterbuilt cables of $400,000 replaced with $50,000 in cables. That is reverse of what mousetrap analogy is. Then the best system I heard would be only $1,050,000. I still couldn't afford it. |
Sorry, I’m not impressed. I’m sure I’ve heard much better systems than you have. And the cables were nothing special. Do you think these hands have been soaking in Ivory Liquid? It actually sounds like you might have accidentally fallen in with some kind of cult. 😛 Also, the very best mouse trap is a block of wood and a hammer. Works every time! 100%.
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Have you heard the von Schweikert/VAC/Kronos/Masterbuilt system which has been raved about every audio show it's been displayed in for the past three years? You cannot comment on what you haven't heard. I am surprised that you have authoritatively stated that you have heard better systems than me. We are not audio equipment cult members. I am satisfied listening hours on end to my inferior audio system but it cannot reproduce recordings as well as the best I've heard, merely better than nearly all other systems I've heard.
3 decades ago, I heard what I thought was the finest audio system as well by a man named Michael Lane of Lane Audio. He had 250,000 78s in mint condition. He had 30+ styli and was a CalTech engineer with exotic equipment. When he played early acoustic 78s, the performers sounded as if they were in the room. Remington LPs on their inferior vinyl had nearly silent surfaces and astounding sound. He was a genius of recorded music reproduction.
Until you've heard the best systems I've heard, you'd be surprised how captivating the most elaborate and/or expensive systems can sound.
I am in a cult reproduced music listeners along with Frank, Robert and other friends proximately located as well friends Kevin Gray, Steve Hoffman, Andreas Meyer who know something about music reproduction. We are in a music cult. Equipment is a means to an end. |
ggc said "
Ideally one would like to spend 25-30% on cables". I'm just below that % (& am happy with the results) but agree that cables are truly that important. If one values getting the most resolution they can out of there system, they need quality cables to accomplish it. I s-u-p-p-o-s-e one could argue that using that % of money to buy better electronics/speakers will give you better sound, however (even though it probably can't be measured) IME inferior wire diminishes that scenario rather abruptly. |
I am so very happy that I found and befriended a manufacturer of high end cables whose retail price is so reasonable that I don't have to spend 25% or 30% on cables. At $400 per cable, I've purchased all my cables from him, for both audio systems and both video systems. I use 30' speaker cables at a cost of $1800 bi-wired which I've used for over a decade. That's a great return on a cable investment. I wouldn't buy Masterbuilt cables unless my net worth doubled and I heard them one on one against my current cables. I do like the vonSchweikert speakers though with Masterbuilt internal wiring which increased their cost by several $1000. |
fleschler
I wouldn’t buy Masterbuilt cables unless my net worth doubled and I heard them one on one against my current cables. I do like the vonSchweikert speakers though with Masterbuilt internal wiring which increased their cost by several $1000.
>>>>>I thought I read somewhere that the Von Schweikert ULTRA Mod options of Masterbuilt internal cables cost between $15,000 and $35,000, depending on speaker. Do I have that right? 😛 And one can’t wondering if Von Schweikert is on board the wire directionality train. 🚂 Toot, toot!
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I'm looking at the VR55 Aktive. The quote at asking price included the upgraded Masterlink cable, maybe $5,000 discount to sell the speaker at the asking price or 10% of the original asking price. The Ultra 11 is substantially more as you say, but the cabling upgrade is still about 10% of the asking price. So, if I heard 10% or more sound benefit, maybe I would pay it. If I didn't find it that dramatic a difference, I wouldn't. I intend to audition the VR55 at the manufacturer sometime later this year. I will keep using my GroverHuffman cabling outside of the speaker internals.
As to whether or not Masterbuilt understands the significance and/or applies wire directionality, I have no idea. I thought that wire directionality becomes apparent after burn-in where the directionality is set after use. I maybe incorrect. My cables are labeled as to direction but that maybe for future reference when they are unplugged. |
fleschler
As to whether or not Masterbuilt understands the significance and/or applies wire directionality, I have no idea. I thought that wire directionality becomes apparent after burn-in where the directionality is set after use. I maybe incorrect. My cables are labeled as to direction but that maybe for future reference when they are unplugged.
>>>>That would be incorrect, I’m afraid.
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Okay, well I maintain directionality of the cable labeling. Despite not knowing if my reasoning was correct, I've always done the right thing. |
Some cable labeling has to do with the shielding but not wire directionality. Analysis Plus for example IIRC. Some companies control both, but some cables companies are not on board the wire directionality choo choo 🚂 so they don’t control the manufacturing process to address directionality of the wire. |
