Getting a new system for the new office seems like a good way to enjoy what you have while trying a new direction. Also could be an opportunity, when you get the time, to experiment back and forth and mix things around a bit.
While I am now using an Integrated Rogue tube amp, driving my little Maggie 1.7s, I still have and love my old Audible Illusions tube pre amp and trusty old ADCOM power amp. I had to rotate them back in a while back, while waiting for a new set of tubes for the Rogue and was amazed at how good they still sounded. Regardless of what gear I pick up in the future I will never get rid of either, the AI pre amp or the ADCOM. They’re worth more to me than what I would get from selling.
Enjoy the merits of both your old and your new systems.....Jim |
Lots of great stuff in this thread, but for me the best was OP’s original post and how he talked about the components and how it was a big deal to buy all of them as a 20 yr old kid in 1990.
Damn right it was a big deal! I remember looking at all of those pieces in 1990 and wishing there was some way I could replace the Pioneer speakers and Kenwood receiver and CD player that I had with gear of that quality. In fact, had I been able to, I might have gone with those exact components that OP did. Good memories.
When I finally could afford to upgrade in 2000, I did go with B&W and NAD! The NAD passed on (remote broke and no longer handled current HT formats) but still use the B&W’s as front stage of main home theater setup. |
I am going to have an interesting experience. I am super busy right now and don't have a lot of time to devote to a new system. But I really wanted sound in my office. So... I ordered a Peachtree Nova65Se and a pair of Focal 906 speakers for my office. It will be interesting to compare the sound of this setup with my older equipment.
Maybe the old stuff will not sound so great after all.
Scott.
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If you decide to go digital, keep your old system. My 39 year old B&W's and old Adcom amp sound fine with my television. My "new" system sounds better, but it has 1980's Audire electronics and 1990'd B&W's. Recently, I auditioned some really expensive integrated amps on current B&W speakers, because I know their qualities. I did not hear anything digital that I would be at all happy with, but that doe snot keep me from listening to my jazz channel on XM radio.
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I've encountered many 40 to 50-year-old electrolytic caps that test within spec and perform their intended function. Any half-way decent cap will last 20+ years if the associated circuit and its heat dissipation are competent.
People like to believe they hear dramatic differences when they swap power cables and it's most likely the same phenomenon that occurs when they have gear recapped, i.e. placebo.
If your gear sounds good, it's good. |
Scott - I have a 20 year old Denon and a friend still has a 30 year old Yamaha I gave here and they are still sounding fine.
I just sold my NAIM amp that had to have the power supply caps replaced after 10 years - apparently it’s "a thing" with NAIM amps - nice of them to design in "future maintenance"
So I replaced it with a Bryston that comes with a 20 years warranty.
If your gear is still working and you are happy with it - stop worrying and enjoy the music - it will let you know when its "had enough"
Regards - Steve
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Tube technology is very mature and even very old stuff in good condition will be competitive with modern versions. Also, most classic tube gear can be easily repaired and replacement parts are not hard to find.
Solid state is a bit different. That technology is less mature so there are technological changes (e.g., Class D operation) that have come to the fore in the last twenty years. Also, it can be harder to repair solid state gear because certain parts can become hard to find, such as transistors and integrated circuits. |
I've seen a 'new in box' Marantz 8B for sale recently. But I think having some history/experience with a particular model/brand really helps take the mystery/risk away from buying older amps.
In 2009, I bought a Carver TFM-35 that was still sealed in the box. The only picture the seller posted was the box exterior. At the time good used versions of the amp were going for about $450. Since I had owned the TFM-15 new back in 1994, I thought what the heck and just bought it for the 'buy it now price' of $575.
Well, the sound of that amp really was great! The only thing it lacked was some bottom end. But it sounded so effortless and detailed...especially in the high end. All those years in the box didn't hurt it at all. The caps were shiny and new with no sign of expansion. I actually wondered if the aging helped it.
When I took deliver of my Don Sachs Kootenay, I compared them side to side. And while the Kootenay was the better amp...it was not so much in the high end...the Carver was pulling in a tad more detail there. Let's just say the Carver wasn't at all embarrassed by comparison. And with certain types of music, they sounded almost identical...very weird.
There are also services that will update and bring this gear up to current standards. Sometimes it's just nice to see old gear working so well in modern times.
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They are like the pyramids ancient history its time to move on. |
Iv'e got a pair of Pass Aleph 2's that I bought back in the early 90's and have uses on and off since. I just emailed Nelson to see about getting them tuned up and he asked me what problems I was having, I told him none, I was just concerned about the age of the amps and he told me that unless I was getting excessive noise as in hum thru the speakers to just enjoy them. So that's what I'm doin.. :) |
Most good equipment is rebuildable. New Adcom equipment is cost effective. |
Regarding the question of maintenance on your NAD and Adcom both are due for a recapping. A general rule of thumb is that capacitors have a life of between 20 an 30 years, regardless of how often the components were powered up. These parts have a significant effect on the sound quality and the sound of older gear declines gradually.
I just recapped my 24 year old Krell preamp and even though it was working fine and sounded good, the new capacitors make a noticeable improvement in the sound.
The B&W's are a little different story. They should probably be recapped too but for some reason capacitors seem to last longer in speakers. If you can pull out and disconnect the crossovers the cost to put in new caps may be pretty reasonable.
The big question is if you have an attachment to this gear and want to keep it. It will cost at least a couple hundred bucks to recap each piece of electronics and if you're ready to move on you could take that money and put it toward newer gear. If you still like this preamp and amp (they are both great sounding classic pieces) then the cheapest strategy would be to get the maintenance done and hang on to them. But from a purely financial perspective it will cost more to refurbish them than they are worth. The third strategy is to just keep running them until they fail which could take years.
It's been my experience that you could spend a lot of money and get just a marginal improvement in sound compared to a recapped NAD and Adcom. I moved from an Adcom GFA 555 to a Krell KSA 300S the the level of sonic difference was disturbingly low compared to the difference in cost. |
I appreciate all the input, as a newbie on this forum. Thank you. I will look into replacing caps, etc.
As I mentioned I just picked up a pair of SVS Prime Wireless speakers for my new home office. It will be interesting to compare sound. Even though it is a bit apples to oranges, the speakers are new tech, with good amplification and decent DAC.
In a way it is kind of the opposite approach (amp, speaker, and DAC bundled), so i know its not audiophile. But it is what I could afford. I cannot really build two systems right now.
I will test it out with Tidal MQA or other high quality recordings. It will be my first serious comparison where I can really sit and listen for extended periods.
I will also take the advice of looking into local shops to hear new technology. But I doubt that can happen for some time (COVID)...
Scott.
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There is no hard and fast rule on longevity. My system utilizes a midrange compression driver that is about 80 years old; it is one of the very best drivers that I've heard of any kind. My amps, built about 8 years ago, have a lot of very old components in it; the output transformers are around 70 years old.
A friend recent bought an old Western electric 124 amp that was not reconditioned--all original parts, and the tubes, were also old and quite rare--WE 274, WE 348 and WE 350. The amp is in perfect working order. Western Electric built stuff for commercial use and with a cost-is-no-object philosophy; the company leased their gear so they built the stuff to last.
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Well, I was in a similar situation until last Fall (October 2019). Bottom line, I ended up upgrading important components and my sound is TONS better; I would encourage you to do the same. I bought my stereo back in 1992 and did not change anything until recently. I thought it sounded great. Now -- I would never want to go back! The only two components that stayed are my original KEF 104/2 speakers. What prompted me to do the upgrade was a series of small discoveries. It is an interesting story but for now I'll spare you the details.
The first upgrade was interconnects (various Audioquest). I still remember my surprise at how much better everything sounded. It is one of these moments when you want to go though multiple favorite recordings to see how they sound now. And I was thinking -- "I had no idea how great these KEFs were able to sound all along and I just didn't know." And: "It's the first time I am hearing this CD sound so great." Then you also know there's no going back.
So I remember being on vacation last September thinking how I want to go back home and listen to my upgraded stereo. But the real improvement came later. I started talking to a local audio shop (Q Audio in Cambridge, MA) and ended up replacing my Adcom amplifiers with Musical Fidelity M6si. No way I can come back to these Adcoms any more! This time I spent 7 hours straight, listening to a lot of music to enjoy the difference (soundstage, dynamics, etc.) -- and again -- the same old speakers proved to have had the potential I never realized!
Last change was a new DAC: RME ADI-2 DAC FS. I stream into it from Node 2i (Qobuz and my CDs ripped to FLAC) + I am getting new life from my old (also 1992) Adcom CD player via digital coax cable from the CD to the DAC. So now the system is built around DAC -> balanced XLR -> MF M6si. And now I am at a point when I don't want to upgrade any more :-)
But the amp upgrade from the old Adcom was very much worth it.
I am encouraging you to do the same in spite of the wisdom in continuing to enjoy what you already enjoy. I wish I had done my upgrade sooner. |
Well, let's see. I am using, for now until I can find a decent used ARC amp, the Hafler 500 I built myself (they used to sell it as a kit) sitting at the desk in my shop in 1975. Had it tested a month ago. He adjusted the bias and it measured at spec in all areas, old caps or not, I guess.
Reason for visit to the shop: Added a newly purchased ARC SP-6 from the late 1970's. Replaced two parts in that and it measured excellent by the tech, who is actually an audio engineer of high repute with all the right measurement gear.
SO, how old is too old? I have no idea, but I am very pleased with my system on my Tympani I-C's, which sound like they did 40 years ago. I have another pair that was completely rebuilt by Magnepan, but they are still in the box until I move.
Would I LIKE new ARC and Maggie stuff? DUH! Unfortunately, I am retired now and just can't justify the expense, so while the stuff is definitely old, it plays music that sounds the same as when I plug in my guitar or bass, or play my cornet or drums, which is the standard I personally use.
Would new stuff improve the overall sound? No doubt--progress has been made in every field. If you like what you are hearing, go to a GOOD, PROFESSIONAL shop and listen to new gear in your price range. TAKE IT HOME and plug it into your current stuff and listen. If you like the new stuff and can afford it, buy it, I guess.
Remember, as everyone here knows, your ROOM is the most important part of any system for reproduction accuracy. Either way, enjoy the music!
Cheers! |
Sounds like a nice sweet spot for you. I have an NAD 3155 (bought new in '85) which I still use as a pre. If it works for you, go with it unless it starts to sound bad, you can always renovate. That GFA 535 sounds like a keeper, too. I would say, you certainly got great value out of the system. |
audite84 is right. Electrolytic caps decay over time. Even if the units are working, it's unlikely that they are at peak performance. A 535 is a very good amp, and well worth having this done. If you have been happy with the performance, it's probably more economical than buying new. |
I agree. It takes passion to own vintage gear. As an example, a newly produced Scott 340b volume pot off ebay costs around $100.
To OP, if you want to keep your system, you should at least do a recap, which I think is now a must. And as I said, some other maintenance like cleaning, checking values of resistors and other components. By experience though, electrolytics are almost always the critical issue.
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Addendum: I myself am into vintage for a long time. It can get you a lot of listening pleasure, but it can also cost you a lot of money for maintenance and repair. So think twice before buying "golden oldies"...
So long, Hans |
Never change a running system... But if you want to get an upgrade, you can also have a deeper look on used (but not vintage) equipment. Many of the high end gems I got over the last years were used but in great shape. Never forget that also loudspeakers are ageing over the years. And that technology advances. I recently tested the new Monitor Audio Gold 200 and it outclassed my Infinity Kappa 7 II Series 2 in almost every way you can imagine despite of being significantly smaller: more resolution, more precision and very clear bass. So visit some dealers with a good portfolio and proper showrooms, discover the 2020 high end world and enjoy!!!
Greetz, Hans |
I used to have a Nad amp bought before I was 20. It worked many years but finally gave up. I now use a Rega Brio and it sounds a bit better. I already had a dac but bought a Raspberry Pi as a streamer. It works great and is a cheap upgrade if you have a dac. You can also buy one with a dac like the Hifiberry. I would start with this before changing anything Else and also start saving for new amps since they may stop working. |
Hi OP,
I myself love vintage and old gear. I have a Scott 340b, laboriously restored last year. Good sound is good sound. I'd say if you are happy and want to keep your system, then do the necessary maintenance and enjoy your system. For another 20 years. |
Nice system and if you are happy then good on you. You also know that the equipment was cared for. If the capacitors are not swollen, or leaking you should be fine.
There is some good input concerning a good DAC and streaming.
Consider looking in better source quality and music selection, first.
Pardon, if I assumed you haven’t already as you didn’t mention your
source material.
Qobuz is a streaming service that provides a large selection of hi-rez music. A quality streamer such as a dedicated NUC computer running Roon (software musical interface) as it functions as a utility is economical, fairly east to set-up and works well IMO. Happy listening. |
It sounds to me as though you want a green light to spend money
again after your last investment 30 years back.
If you follow these forums you must know you either care more about
money than SQ or you are just F-ing with us.
Fess up!!
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@cruxarche, Kudos to you for acquiring a system like that at such a young age. Until recently, I was using a Sony AV receiver, Jensen speakers and a Pioneer CD changer, all 25-30+ years old. They still sounded pretty good to me, but at this advanced age (65) I decided to treat myself to entry level audiophile equipment. My nephew now uses my old system and is happy with it.
Along with the advantages noted of newer equipment, I have seen people on this forum and elsewhere state that the quality of equipment has declined the past 20 years. Unless you are paying big bucks, corners are cut to reach a price point. For that reason, some people seek out vintage equipment and then have it checked by a qualified technician for recapping or what replacement is deemed necessary. If, as you say, funds are limited, you might need to be frugal in trying to upgrade your sound (I have no idea what restoration of vintage equipment costs, but people do it. I recommend videos by a guy on YouTube that does excellent work — xraytonyb. Check it out).
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Well, these components have provided joy for 30 years. That's spanning the gulf war, the dotcom bust, the great recession to the current global pandemic. That's impressive. If you updated all of these components now, that should get you to age 80. Then, time to update again...... |
There are two questions here, I think:
1. are they sonically obsolete?
--> in my opinion, no. There's lots of great 30 year old stuff, and most importantly you said you like it. QED.--> there may be better stuff, but i'd go very cautiously
2. Can it be repaired?
--> with solid state gear, 95% of the parts will last 50-100 years--> however, a few very important capacitors are likely near their limit. If and when they fail, it could be catastrophic.--> yet, even with a major melt down, it probably wont kill the rest of the amp. The biggest casualty might be speakers which could see DC or transients. Are your speakers fused? I really do advise fuses.....about 1 1/2A fast blow. Amazing how LITTLE they degraded the sound. After ripping them out, holder, wiring and all, i put them back in (as in line adapters on my speaker wires)
-> re-capping is not rocket science, but it is laborious. Maybe not worth it.--> while not catastrophic, old power supply caps in particular will slowly degrade the sound. Amazing how good some 30 year old products sounded when i oversaw the re-capping of a dozen or so of them with new, better parts.
Adcom is probably pretty easy to re-cap, relatively.
I agree that you really should look at the modern world of HD streaming, and a good DAC. Need not cost all that much for the DAC there is one i think is a steal at $99 and made right here in the USA. Got a laptop? With a DAC you have a streamer then. And computer streamed FLAC/ALAC files sound consistently better than the same thigns fro a CD - not as one might guess, worse. There are good tech reasons for this. (of course it must be done right, beyond this discussion).
One more story. I had to clean out my hosue to do a rebuild. I pulled out an original NAD 3020, spica TC-50is, and an AR turntable/SME arm/grado cart. Carefully inspected everything and got it working - really nice sound from a little system. SO we dont need new, and we dont always need fancy to enjoy music that sounds WAY better than most mass market crap.
Enjoy,
G
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I think the life span of your equipment is different than the utilization of your equipment providing you joy.
I like your equipment and technology has moved forward significantly not only in sources (streamers, DACs and such) but also the cost per sound reproduction in components such as speakers.
I know someone who moved from a vintage system with Carver CD player and and McIntosh pre-amp/amp with Martin Logan speakers tied to structured wiring providing music through in room speakers in the kitchen, patio and garage move to a Sonos set up because was easier to use at a price point versus upgrading a the multi-zone audio system in the house.
Define your goals and budget then you may get some ideas on what you can add and if there's a secondary market for what you may not be utilizing. |
if you like what you have, and can't afford to upgrade or refurbish...but sounds like you're still curious...you might be surprised at how good some new entry level gear can sound...and gear with dried out, dead caps, can still "play" for years... |
The time to replace is when one of them expires and cannot be mended. |
Thanks for the responses. I know my stuff is not truly audiophile, but I feel like its pretty good quality.
As far as inputs, when my CD player died a few years ago I did invest in a SONOS Connect (which apparently is on its way to becoming a brick) to stream into my system. I also still use my record player as well.
I recently moved my office to my home (like so many) and decided I wanted sound in my new office room. I am going hi tech. Again, not exactly audiophile--SVS Prime Wireless bookshelves. They have Class D amplification, are true active monitors with digital crossover, and have a built in DAC. So all i need is a streaming source. This is the first set of new speakers in my home since, well 1990.
Thanks again for the input on the old system. Sounds like there is no obvious parts that expire...I do not really have the money to replace it anyway.
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Are they totally dated, meaning past their intended lifespan from an internal component perspective? No. But my memories a little hazy. You should check. Like in the Bruce Willis movie RED. Made before expiration dates and you're okay. I have to say it all still sounds really good to me. See? Like Malkovich with the Twinkie. But I never really listen to other systems. Perfect. This is the key to happiness. Avoid internet, magazines, and stores. You'll be fine. |
You didn't specify your source. Analog or digital? Both? Those would be the places to upgrade! |
If things are still working well and you enjoy the sound - keep your system! The grass is not always greener over the hill! |
Hey Scott, far be it from me to say you should come out of the cozy hobbit hole you've built for yourself right now, but several things are really good now:
1. Streaming
2. DACs
3. Class D amplifiers
And while your speakers may still work, you may find your tastes have changed. I see those are 2.5 way speakers, I really like the form factor overall.
Gear will last a long time, but at some point the electrolytic caps will need replacement, and you have to decide if it is worth it or you want to make a jump. I would encourage you to think about a nice new integrated and speaker pair, perhaps with built in streaming, or perhaps with an outboard DAC.
Best,
E
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