@yping - perhaps you could explain what this means. It is from your link:
How the KLEI AC power cables support effective supply...1.The live and neutral conductors have been designed, in accordance with the Eichmann Ratio architecture,which acts to control and reduce the effectiveness of the induction processes. 2.The neutral is constructed and placed with the live conductor(s), in accordance with the gPOWER™and zPURITY™architectures, which acts to further control and reduce the effectiveness of the induction processes. 3.The earth is constructed and placed with the live and neutral conductor(s),in accordance with the gPOWER™and zPURITY™ architecture, which acts to even further control and reduce the effectiveness of the induction processes. As @Geoff Kait mentions this does not make anything clear. People tell me this is just a cheap 5-core industrial SY cable at very expensive price.
I come onto this website to learn about this hobby not listen to all the infighting between members, I would like to continue to educate myself, not hear about the squabbling, it hurts my ears!
Why the last few feets of cable counts? Because the powersupply "sees" the ac through these last few feets of wire. It is like a blood.vein, the atreia that feeds the powersupply. And as we know; the quality of the powersupply defines the quality of a component.
About romex; the only way to avoid any quality-loss of the electric signal is to use single solid-core conductors of sufficient gauge. Most "experts" undercalculates this value because do not incalculate the dynamic headroom needed here. Same with speakerwires btw. Me I`ve used a shielded solid core pc`s for decades, after an eye- and mouth-opening experience with the old version of the powercords from Electrocompaniet (8x14awg solid core) vs stock pc`s. And then a simular step up when swapping to diy single core 12awg.
Thye truth is sometimes so simple that most people won`t accept it.
And there it is in a nutshell. The only ones selling power cords made of Romex are the ones that are either ignorant of electrical code or have simply elected to stare down the shotgun barrels. As a manufacturer, I follow the code because I don't want the liability. And that is why most power cords are flexible, because the people that make them like to sleep at night.
Occupational Safety and Health Administration. Between them and UL and also national electrical codes, essentially solid core power cords are illegal. So if one makes a fire, electrical hazard or any such, it won't be covered by homeowner's or renter's insurance.
Actually I did. I agree that power cords make a difference because I had first hand experience. I bought some beefy power cords and the sound becomes noticeably better - the soundstage becomes more stable, better separation, and the mass string which used to sound a bit harsh now quite a bit smoother. I think you need some good system to tell the difference though. I used to have some crappy system and it's was hard for me to distinguish the sound with different component but my system now is a lot better so it's easier to tell.
I was asking if anybody had a good well thought out explanation? I have my own interpretation.
You can look at this both ways. The power cord is the last 3 feet of wire going to the power supply, or it's the first 3 feet that the power supply sees. Before, I would have said the former. But now I tend to agree more with the latter.
OK. Purity of metal, gauge of conductor, geometry of conductor(s), dielectric material, length of power cord, stranded vs solid core, silver vs copper, broken in properly vs not, quality of connectors, cryogenically treated or not, controlled for directionality, e.g., the new line of power cords from Audioquest. Did I miss anything?
There are many reasons why some power cords are better than others. It’s analogous to why some interconnects are better than others or why some fuses are better than others. It’s not rocket science. 🚀
@ pawlowski6132, you asked for specifics, here goes. I've installed a PS Audio BHK Stereo 250 amp recently and have been working to get the tonal balance of the system fine tuned to my liking. I had few power cords to try, none terribly expensive; Mojo Audio copper ribbon, Wireworld Eclipse, DIY Furutech FP-S032N, & DH Labs Red Wave. All made subtle changes but all were slightly off, either too much sibilance on closely miked recordings accompanied by a bit of tonal dryness or a lack of liveliness if they didn't accentuate upper registers too much.
This illustrates what I wanted - I was recently listening to a live performance of a small Baroque ensemble and when the period Oboe was played with gusto, it blatted, squawked, and sounded harsh but yet it didn't make you recoil like a harsh recording can. When the soprano let lose with a fortissimo passage, that was also harsh but it didn't make you recoil like you might when listening to recording playback.
When I installed one of PS Audio's AC12 power cords on the amp, the amp hit its stride and was much better balanced (within the limitations of the recording.) Bass and treble were in balance without exaggeration, and there was far less tendency for previously excessively sibilant recordings to sound too harsh. Harsh musical elements sound harsh but without as much glare as was evident previously.
Admittedly, the differences in power cords are fairly subtle and I can understand how some would consider the costs to be out of proportion to the benefit.
And then I thought, the exact same wire I was using is still in the
extensions. So WHY is that not making the later wire the same as it is
on it’s own???
Anyway, I do not have the answer. However it
IS a project anyone could do. make a PC out of the same sort of wire in
the wall Romex, whatever. See how it sounds? Then remake the PC with
your own audiophile wire. And see if/how it changes.
Romex is very high performance but is illegal and dangerous for use as a power cord. That is why all power cords are flexible wire. The other requirements for a good power cord were outlined on the first page of this thread.
So these people that claim power cords make no difference because of scientific therories. Well science only knows a small part of what there is to know. They can't explain ball lightening!!!!! That's Just in the electricity realm. If it can't be explained it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Romex is solid core house wiring. Doesn't it make sense to have a solid core power cord(after market multi strand) to finish the connection? I've heard the same positive effects of after market power cords that others have heard. How about metal whiskering? Scientist don't understand the mechanics of it and it has caused equipment failures. When metal is stressed, projections have been observed. Could that be the reason why sometimes when you bend or stress a cable it sounds different!! Cryonics is another where scientists don't know the full reason why electron emission increases in the absence of light. I got these off Wikipedia unsolved problems in physics. There is around 50 listed.
@pawlowski6132 I understand your desire to gain info about cable characteristics from others. It’s kinda circular, as that information relies on gaging and aligning the contributors’ subjective listening (and hearing) impressions with your own. And I hazard to suggest this quest is further complicated (and frustrated?) by objective differences in audio systems and room acoustics.
Agreed but trying to get more insight into what people perceived to be as better. For example is there more Bass, is there less sibilance in the vocals, are some of the highs less screechy,.
Better is always going to be in the ears of the beholder. Good systems aren't deficient they will produce music differently with a variety of different power cords but I don't think it can be proven to non-believers satisfaction because it's a matter of personal taste and hearing ability.
Can someone who has had positive experience with aftermarket power cords cite specific examples of what they heard? Which album? Which passage? What specifically? Was it really "better" or, just different? If it was"better", what do you think was causing that deficiency in your system in the first place?
to Willemj, correct me if i'm wrong but have been you going on about after market power cords without having tried ANY in your system ("Do you think I am that mad?")? Are you saying you have no experience with after market cords? I'm going with that that's not possible because anybody that expresses so vehement an opinion without actually having listened to a power cord or two is simply a boob. You go on about the science but why not try a little science experiment of your own and listen to a few cords and THEN express an opinion. At least it will be informed. You might even learn something. From my vast experience listening to a great number of power cords, there is NO doubt they have anywhere from no affect to a minor to a profound affect on the sound quality. Do you think that everyone who purchases after market power cords is naive or stupid or deaf but you, who have never listened to an after market cord know that they don't affect the sound? Stop wasting everyone's time with an uninformed opinion. Or I could give you an opinion and waste your time about a book i never read. Regards, Charles
Atmasphere If there even was directional wire, power cable manufacturers would be working really hard to build cables from non-directional wire since it would sound better.
As I opined previously, I’m not so sure Atmasphere completely comprehends what “directionality” refers to. Judging by his own words I’d say he doesn’t. No offense. Audioquest controls directionality for not only their cables and interconnects but also their power cords. It’s not rocket science. 🚀 By controlling directionality the customer is assured of the best sound. All that is required is for the manufacturer to be AWARE of the issue and to control the manufacturing process accordingly. In fact the customer doesn’t even have to be aware there is such a thing as directionality. This is not some new tangled fad. Wire directionality has been known (by those who know 😀) for going on 20 years, which if I recall was the period of time Rip Van Winkle was asleep. 😴
Whoa! Look at me. I just finished saying don’t feed the Uber Skeptics. My bad.
thinking more about the diode effect analogous to a fuzz pedal, what if
the effect was much more subtle than a fuzz pedal yet still perceptible
to the human auditory system? Possible? Could it be measured, and if
not with current technology, still be audible? This is the part that I
find truly fascinating: that we may be able to hear very subtle
differences that we have yet to measure accurately enough or even
account for.
@jc4659 If the effect were there to begin with, I suspect it would be audible. But its not. The reason you hear differences between power cables is not directionality. Its voltage drop, plain and simple. Some at audio frequencies, and some at ultrasonic frequencies, depending on the rectifiers in the power supplies of the equipment used, as I explained earlier at the bottom of page 4 of this thread.
If there even was directional wire, power cable manufacturers would be working really hard to build cables from non-directional wire since it would sound better.
Your beef is really with the moderators, Ralph. Geoff seems to be playing by the rules here.
@cleeds The first statement is true, the second is not. Geoff's MO is not to only to try to refute arguments (I've no beef with that) but also to make personal insults and attacks on anyone that challenges his mythology. This is one of the definitions of a troll. To be within typical forum rules, the principle is "attack the argument not the poster". For now, moderation seems to be content to tolerate trolls, which is unfortunate, as it makes it harder to wade through threads to find the useful bits.
The mind of the Uber skeptic is not really that hard to figure out. As it turns out they really don’t care that much one way or the other. They don’t really have a dog in the fight. 🐶 It’s all about the action. Like whack-a-mole. Action...reaction! It’s sooo obvious. Even hear the expression, “Don’t feed the Uber Skeptics?”
audiosens"It is a a fact that you will hear an improvement with a cable in a better sound system"
Of course yes that is a completely factual statement as many here on the Audiogon forums can readily attest based on first hand experience with they're Music Reproduction Systems but equally true is that there are "naysayers" hear who believe as a matter of faith that such an audible difference is impossible so even though they have no proofs of they're own they often demand proofs from others it is most unusual! As if that is not alone enough to "boggle" the mind these same "naysayers" will claim to have science on they're side and that you are engaged in a fraud or snake oil.
It is a a fact that you
will hear an improvement with a cable in a better sound system. By the way, not
only the cable are important but also speaker binding post, a bad one
would shrink and distorted the sound and a good one would make the
music bloom. I just do the change and wow !
@atmosphere-thinking more about the diode effect analogous to a fuzz pedal, what if the effect was much more subtle than a fuzz pedal yet still perceptible to the human auditory system? Possible? Could it be measured, and if not with current technology, still be audible? This is the part that I find truly fascinating: that we may be able to hear very subtle differences that we have yet to measure accurately enough or even account for.
Hi guys I was not a believer until I tried a cheap and "as short as possible" DIY cable. It made a notorious difference most of all in the DAC, I guess it should be that way because it works with the small signals. It was really easy to make. The only "special" ingredient was a cable that I bought to my regular electric supplier, one it has 3 cables (positive, neutral and ground) protected by a electromagnetic isolation composed by an aluminum paper cover plus a metallic wired tube shaped cover plus the classic rubber black external protector. The IEC plug and the plug for the wall were standard ones, being the IEC plug not the best quality at all!! Well, that simple cable cost me about 5 dollars and 30 minutes to make it, Im not handy on electrician tasks. :-) It really made a difference. I could not believe it, but it was true. If I did it, anyone can do it and try it, at almost no cost. So theres no excuse for the skeptics not to try it and keep on talking. All you need is a nice system, good source, ears used to listen hifi systems and some time. It will be the cheapest upgrade ever!! Regards
Having Ralph call someone a troll is like Mother Theresa uttering an F bomb. At least in my honest opinion... And, Elizabeth is more than that. She's a lady. (not in a chauvinistic way ;)) B
Don’t you even realize you cannot win an argument by calling someone a troll? This is SO funny! You don’t even know what directional means. You have exactly zero evidence to support your case, in any case. Case closed. That’s 3 cases in a row. Have a wonderful day.
I know nothing is going to heat up, because wire isn't directional. The links you've provided in the past go to fake 'data' that can be safely ignored. We've already covered on different threads how its impossible for a fuse to be directional, and on those threads I provided the reason why some people hear a difference when the fuse is reversed, and how to predict it, using a simple DVM.
@cleeds I believe have have made my point. Geoff will continue to troll, but the facts can't be changed by that.
Atmasphere, relax. Nothing is going to heat up or explode. I realize you almost for sure have not (rpt not) been following the whole wire directionality saga or you would not be driving so hard to the basket. The difference between resistance measurements for fuses was found to be quite small, although there were in fact differences. But certainly nothing to worry about. Less than 5% as I recall. Maybe less than 2%. Since wire IS in fact directional don’t you find it a little strange nobody’s House has burned to the ground? 🔥 Hel-loo! Differences in resistance are shown in the data sheets on the HiFi Tuning web site. These data sheets have only been mentioned and linked to like a Bazillion Times in the past several years. And it would certainly be easy enough to measure any wire yourself, you know, assuming you were the least bit curious.
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