LAIV Harmony

@audioman58   I thought you were saving for the T+A Dac 200? I know I am.

I have compared the Harmony with the latest Denafrips Pontus 15 

on its own with its dual precision clocks and bigger dual o core transformers and now big upgraded capacitors from Japan  sonically a bit richer then the harmony 

that being said I bought the Iris DDC reclocker with the pontus using I2S 

for less then the Harmony ,and they will be running another combo sales my friend said ,using the latest Iris 12 reclocker it 100% exceeds the harmony 

we compared them 2 weeks ago with several other high profile dacs 

@no_regrets 

Thanks so much for posting the additional quotes. I recognize that, due to budgetary constraints, trade-offs are  inevitable in my case. That's OK. However, sacrificing musicality for resolution is a complete non-starter for me.

When it comes time to buy my next DAC (likely my last) the LTA will be at the top of my list to demo. 

@stuartk Yes, I agree with you.  In fact, in addition to the quote that you had just shared, the following quotes from the Twittering Machines review of the LAIV Harmony Dac pushed me over the top in favor for the LTA Aero Dac....

"Dialing difference and prices down a bit, the LTA Aero DAC ($3950) also sounded comparatively richer, fuller, and to my ears and tastes more involving, making music feel more life-like and less processed."

"The Harmony DAC, running in OS mode, does have a hint of processing it imparts on the sound of music, a kind of subtly overly hyped sense of resolution that can make music feel exciting but over time had me feeling a tad fatigued, as if I had to pay extra special attention to every last bit of every last converted bit of sound that went into the making of the music in play. Switching to NOS mode did smooth this overhyped sound out, moving the sonic emphasis to a richer, fatter, less etched presentation but over time NOS mode felt a bit boring, to be blunt."

" Again, I was not distracted by some sense of too much resolution until I switched to the LTA Aero DAC that immediately created a more spacious and airy sense of place, with more fully voiced piano, sax, and clarinet rounding within it."

So, it was these comparative comments about the LTA Aero Dac that were mentioned in the LAIV Harmony Dac review by the Twittering Machines review that made me feel it may be worth the uncharge in purchasing the Aero over the Harmony. The other thing that I think is of value in regards to the LTA Aero is that you can use various tubes to dial in the exact flavor of sound that you are looking for that will synergistically match the rest of your system.  

However, I will say that at  $2700, it does indeed seem as though the Harmony Dac is at the front of the pac at  it's specific price point.  

Best wishes,

Don

@no_regrets

Based on the writings of Michael, the LTA Aero (although being more expensive than the Harmony) has more developed sonic attributes that are more in-line with what is important to me.

The following excerpt from the Twittering Machines review inclines me to believe the same is true for me, as well:

From my Harmony DAC review: “Switching between NOS and OS modes throughout the course of the review period had me wishing for something in between.” And while it’s not literally the case, in some ways the Aero slots in between with a more pleasing and engaging balance between color and resolution. More engaging because I respond to richness in tone and texture as being better able to connect me to music’s emotive powers than sharp, super-defined edges.

I hope you’ll report back to us once you’ve had the LTA in your system for a while.

@nymarty Thank you for pointing out the twittering machines reviews of both the Laiv Harmony Dac and the LTA Aero Dac.  It was great to read his various comparisons of sound between these two days and well as others.

I've got a lot of money invested in my vinyl rig and lp's.  I have come to the realization that there is a lot of great music yet to be had that cannot be found on vinyl.  And, the sound of digital has come a long ways over the years.

I have been on the look out for a very nice sounding dac that won't break the bank, so to speak.  I personally cannot yet stomach paying over $10,000+ on a dac. So, the Harmony Dac and the LTA Aero seem to be quite attractive to me at least from a price point objective.

It appears (if I am understanding him correctly) that he thought the Harmony does very well up to it's price point, but not really above it's price point.

Based on the writings of Michael, the LTA Aero (although being more expensive than the Harmony) has more developed sonic attributes that are more in-line with what is important to me.  Based on this and the writings of others, I have decided to order a new LTA Aero Dac for myself.  I think it's great that we are living in a time that we have such great products at price points for everybody to enjoy.

Best wishes,

Don

@nymarty Thanks for heads-up on twittering machines.  I was unaware.

And another positive review, how about that.  I enjoyed Michael's perspectives on OS vs NOS modes.

@no_regrets  Michael Lavorgna reviewed both DACs on twitteringmachines.com.  Each review describes his sonic impressions and he makes some comparisons.

I'm curious if anyone has ever had the opportunity to compare the LAIV Harmony Dac with the new LTA Aero Dac?  

If yes, could you share how they compare sonically?

Thank you and best wishes,

Don

I'm with Jason on this one... Resistor drift is a non-issue for modern electronics and should easily expect a ~20+ year lifespan unless there's some serious abuse involved.

Drift Calculation for Thin Film Resistors

There's much greater precision required in other applications (such as automotive/aerospace applications) and somehow the world still turns:

Resistors in aeronautics applications: Meeting the new performance requirements

I was seriously considering a MSB DAC and in one of their design videos, they state that their typical product cycle is 7 to 10 years.  I can't imagine they'd expect someone to buy their $100k+ R2R DACs expecting it to sound poorly before they replace it with a new model.

Okay, Bourne, now we’re labeled obsessive neurosis (ON). Yes, metal film or modern carbon composite resistors are resistant to aging drifts, as you said, but they can still suffer permanent changes in value if subjected to temperature or electrical overloads/high voltage gradients. Maybe with good surge protection, this won’t be an issue—but who knows? (another ON thought)

No such thing as resistor drift for ladder-type DAC's. They use metal-film resistors - not the old carbon comps. Another non-issue by the neurotically obsessed!

I've had two components develop issues due to age. A solid state amp and a tube preamp.  Seems to me that components can fail in any piece of electronics.  I like the performance of my Gustard r2r dac, so I think I'll hang onto it and see what happens. 

Well, the Harmony DAC has a resistor bank that you could just replace them all in one shot for each channel. A lot of DACs use surface mount resistors and they would be very difficult to measure, and almost impossible to replace on the main board.

@sns Thanks for sharing. I am used to hearing capacitor leaks but not resistor drifts. There are a few hundred of them in r-2r dac. Time/effort measuring and replacing them might be overwhelming. I am no expert in this and definitely not custom to learn r-2r dac might become a potential maintenance item after one spends a few thousand dollars with it.

In term of sigma delta dac, my preference is always Akm over Ess primarily because the two Akm based Dac I had sound more smooth than Ess-based.  And ironically the only Ess-based one I had is the most expensive one which sounds a bit dry and edgy.  I knew the implementation determines the SQ not the chip itself. Hope the 9038pro chip which can only be found in higher end dac will sound better.  But I were sort of leaning toward r-2r dac when it comes to higher spending on a Dac until leaning drifts issue from you...

@lanx0003 You've pointed out one of my concerns with R2R dacs, that being performance could vary over time as these resistors could drift in value. R2R dacs are reliant on relatively large number of resistors compared to other audio components, so odds of individual resistors drifting over time is more likely. It would be interesting to see a direct comparison of a well used R2R vs. new example of exact same dac. Has the sound quality changed in any way?

My other issue is the quality of those resistors. I've long used point to point wired, minimalist SET amps and pre's, can hear the difference in changing out resistors. I'm sure your listing of tolerances is generally correct, although there are boutique resistors out there that have closer tolerance within a category, such as Takman carbon film.

So my question is, does the quality of resistor make a difference in R2R dac? Take for example, the TotalDac's, which use the Vishay nudes, which are the gold standard for resolution/transparency. I'd expect TotalDac's to outperform R2R dac with lesser resistors. And it should, as the Vishay nudes far, far more expensive than any other resistor.

Based on my observations of R2R, Holo May KTE seems to be highest resolving/transparency for reasonably priced r2r. If Harmony outperforms this pretty good achievement.

Finally, I've found the ESS Sabre dacs I've owned extremely enjoyable, generally these chip dacs are relatively high resolving/transparent. Implementation of these chips is highly variable, these dacs can be extremely musical or irritating depending on that implementation. Anyway, it would be nice to see a comparison of the Harmony to first rate, newer 9038pro ESS chip dac\.

So I'm in market for new dac, this may be contender, although I remain biased against R2R because of the possible resistor issues

This DAC is most likely priced right amongst it’s competition.
Steve Huff is very influential and people tend to forget to put a big grain of salt on a dish he serves when they consume it.

Dismissing neutral and negative reviews is just doing yourself a disservice. This thing is hyped up. That much is clear.

Here’s another take on it that brings it back to earth:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=yc_v6xwLrnc&si=xSd3kaqV2iX6wQ-X

I recently came across feedback from a user mentioning that the resistors used in the LAiV have a 0.05% tolerance, compared to the lower tolerance resistors (0.005%) used in other designs like those from Musician.

Could the company’s designer (if you’re following this thread) provide some clarification on this information and explain how resistor tolerance might affect the sonic performance of the R-2R DAC?

For reference purpose, here is some more information provided from google search.  The typical tolerance of resistors varies depending on the type and application:

1. General-Purpose Resistors:

   • Carbon Film Resistors: Usually have a tolerance of ±5% or ±10%.
   • Metal Film Resistors: Often have a tighter tolerance of ±1% or ±2%.
   • Thick/Thin Film Resistors: Typically range from ±1% to ±5%.

2. Precision Resistors:

   • Metal Film/Metal Oxide Resistors: Used in precision applications, with tolerances as low as ±0.1% or ±0.5%.
   • Wire-Wound Resistors: Can have tolerances of ±0.01% to ±1%, often used in highly precise applications.

3. High-Precision Resistors:

   • Vishay Bulk Metal® Foil Resistors: Can achieve tolerances as low as ±0.005% or even lower.

The choice of tolerance depends on the application's required accuracy and stability. Lower tolerance resistors are used in circuits where precise resistance values are critical, such as in high-quality audio equipment or precision measuring instruments.

Ok, after watching and reading every review, going through this thread and all 72 pages on Head Fi, I pulled the trigger last night and ordered the Harmony.

Any Aussies here can tell me the how long it takes to be delivered? 

Keen as mustard. 

@audiostick

I wish you luck in your DAC quest.

@stuartk 

I absolutely find value in discussing a reviewer’s comments.  I have neither the time nor resources to procure multiple samples of a component and audition them in my systems.  I rely heavily on input posted here as well as online reviews.  If input from a source is not consistent with others, I think it makes sense to discuss it here so that we can make sound purchasing decisions.

I don’t believe anyone here suggested that only LAIV has a trial policy.

Perhaps I’m missing something, here, but I don’t really see the point of debating whether a particular reviewer’s comments on a particular DAC are "accurate" or "reliable". In the end, what matters is how it sounds to you in your system in your room according to your tastes.

While it can be reassuring to read/watch a favorable review from a reviewer one likes, there is still no guarantee you will like it. In the end, there is only one way to find out. 

BTW, LAIV is not the only company that offers trial/return policies on their DACS!

I happen to really enjoy mine.  Perhaps my ears are defective ;) 

Jay just made some comments on his YouTube channel in response to a question although not a full review. He says that the sound signature sits in between Denafrips (leaner and more detailed) and Holo Audio (warmer and less detailed) though he doesn’t think that the Harmony DAC competes with those companies’ flagships. He also added that the i2s on the Harmony is very good because it is configurable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yc_v6xwLrnc

I have the Harmony DAC and the PS Audio DirectStream DAC Mk.1. 

I bought the DSD before the latest DSD Mk.2 came out. After reading reviews of both and also reviews of the DSD Mk.1 after it was modded compared to the newer Mk.2, I had Rick mod mine and added the LPS add on.

With all the discussions of how the Harmony compares to other DACs, a refurbished DSD Mk.1 can be purchased for around $2000 with 1 year warranty.

The Laiv Harmony is $2700 with a 3 year warranty.

The DSD is FPGA based and the Harmony is a R2R. Both are great sounding.

Going up in price, the T+A DAC200 ($7000) and the Mola Mola Tambaqui ($13000) are better sounding, more analytical, however some report they are not as natural sounding. Opinions are like rectums. Everyone has one.

The soundstage of the DSD is larger than the Harmony DAC.

I am keeping both, and I listen to both. They both sound natural.

My system:

Moon by Simaudio 700i integrated amp
Vandersteen Treo CT speakers
Custom built Roon Server
PS Audio AirLens streamer
PS Audio DirectStream DAC mk.1, modded, w/APS upgrades and LPS
Nordost power and interconnect cables

Fidelium speaker cables
 

I’ve had my Harmony DAC for about 2 weeks and have about 300 hours on it.  I also own a Pontus II 12TH-1 and borrowed a Cyan 2 from a friend to compare all 3 this weekend.  I listened to all 3 in NOS mode.  I spent hours listening to songs that I have heard many many times before.   The Harmony DAC has the most natural sound of all 3.  I listen to a lot of acoustic instruments and vocals.  The instruments like the piano sounds better and closer to reality with the Harmony DAC.  This is the biggest difference I could hear compared to the other 2.  While I have great respect for Hans B and enjoy his videos, I disagree with his comments on the Harmony.  

Regarding Hans’ review... The only time my Harmony sounded remotely close is during testing when I plugged it into the high current outlets of my Furman IT-Reference 20i. Going back to the balanced outlets marked a huge improvement for me within my system (so much so I just ordered an Audioquest Niagara 7000). I’ve mentioned this previously, but my experience is the Harmony is extremely sensitive to system issues and will happily expose them, so my best guess is there’s something in Hans’ chain that needs tweaking.

There have been some reports on Head-Fi in regards to testing NOS/OS and the consensus is there’s some high frequency roll-off with NOS so the "sibilance" claims are very puzzling and I’d again point to one of the many upstream device Hans has piping music into the Harmony. Some users have reported excellent results with NOS and HQPlayer, which I’m tempted to try, but personally, Harmony in OS has been very impressive.

@jackd Thanks for sharing your impressions.

I too am considering the LAiV Harmony, and the closest contenders in my mind are the Denafrips Pontus II 15th or Venus II 12th-1. I mention the Pontus 15th because this new version appears to use the same resistor ladder as the Venus, and the main difference between the two units seems to be the clock. Does anyone have any thoughts regarding how either one of these would compare to the Harmony? Only small minus on the Harmony is that it converts DSD to PCM vs the Denafrips units that handle DSD natively. But if the sound quality of the Harmony is significantly better than the Pontus or Venus, the DSD issue would be acceptable,

Brightness and silibance have me scratching my head...Wondering if removing the "Bridge" between the boards cause some type of instability within the circuit?

Wig

I respect Hans review, if thats what he heard in his system, so be it. I’d say his review is spot on however I still do not hear brightness in my system.

Thanks @jackd. This is exactly the review I’ve been wanting to read. 

1. I received my Harmony on July 22nd and it has been playing music continuously 24/7 since then and just crossed over 300 hours.  I also own a May KTE, a Spring 3 KTE, an Aqua La Voce S3 and a modified Directstream DAC.  It is being fed by an Auralic Aries G2.2 and a Jays Audio CDT3 Mk 3 via USB and I2s,  It is the most musically satisfying of the four DACs.  Will it have the best measurements maybe not but it is the most natural sounding of the bunch and that is what matters to me.  In my new dedicated and purpose built audio room it is the one that will stay.  I have heard no hint of sibilance with either streaming services, stored FLAC and DSD files or CD's from the Jays transport.  So I honestly don't know what Hans was listening to or for and the tone of his usually boring review indicated that his review was based on other factors. As has been pointed out multiple times with Laiv's generous return policy just try it for yourself and don't rely on reviewers on either side. 

My experience with the Harmony DAC has been quite different from that described by Hans.  I have well over 100 hours of real listening sessions logged in with this device, with a TEAC 701T transport sending redbook CD data to it via coax.  I do not hear enhanced sibilance, brightness, or a mediocre midrange tone.  The sound that I hear is very natural, clear, and fulsome.  I cannot compare it to any of the Holo products that Hans mentions, but I can say that the Harmony puts out a more enjoyable sound than any of the other digital sources that I have had in my home system, including the Ayre CX7eMP, the Marantz SA11S3, and the RME ADI2.

@campo007 This review has some words comparing the Terminator to the Harmony. Cliff’s Notes version, the Sonnet Pasithea dispatched the Terminator, and the Harmony dispatched the Pasithea, but it’s a matter of taste and you can get a basic idea of the differences here…

https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/laiv-audio-harmony-dac/

This is a nicely detailed review that does a good job of describing the sonic characteristics of the Harmony, and in the conclusion it has a few words about how it compares to the R26 that I thought you’d find particularly interesting…

https://soundnews.net/reviews/sources/dacs/laiv-harmony-dac-review-could-this-be-the-new-benchmark-under-5k/

Hope this helps.

Thanks @lanx0003 

vs R26, tune into 12:20

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJm6-77fN-s&t=317s

I currently have a Gustard R26 and i'm looking to upgrade to either the Laiv or a Denafrips Terminator Plus 12th Anniv. 

Does anyone have any comparisons with the Laiv to R26 or Laiv to Terminator? 

Hans' not-so-much-hype comments was not isolated. Passion for Sound had some reservation too, but both of them mentioned the I2S connection renders the best sound quality. I personally will appreciate honest critiques rather than hype. Remember, the latter still complemented it by saying "sound quality scales from very, very good to outstanding depending on what you're feeding it with."

That's the best thing with Laiv. If one is interested, try it for a few weeks and return it if you don't like. Let's see other brands offer 30 days return policies..

I see reviews but they are not the bible. I take a leap of faith and go with my gut. I am glad I did with Harmony DAC. It's slightly better than the Holo May I had before as mentioned in this thread before.

While I’m sure Hans heard what he heard, I am always a bit skeptical when one reviewer says something that hasn’t been mentioned by other very reputable reviewers and suspect there’s a negative system interaction of some sort at play there.  But, fortunately you can easily do a trial of the Harmony DAC and I certainly wouldn’t let one iffy review deter me from doing that if I was interested. 

I am perplexed by the brightness take.  I'm not experiencing that, at all. 

Lak, in the comments Hans said he burned it in for 168 hours before starting the review.  

@wengfai : What can you tell us or ready to share about the upcoming HP2A? and the accompanying LExt, like what is it? Estimated release date(s)? or ballpark prices for the two? Curious about the trinity (DAC, HP2A, LExt) set for a home office setup.

Ignoring Hans’ feedback on this DAC would be a mistake. However, given LAiV has a solid return policy, it would be worth to try if this DAC is something that appeals to you. 

This certainly sounds like an interesting DAC!

Curious if anyone has compared the sound quality of spinning a cd via coax vs streaming?

I was originally contemplating purchasing a very high-end SACD/CD player but am concerned about the laser cd mechanism dying and not being able to replace it.

So now, I’m giving thought to buying this dac, running it off my trusty but old Rotel 955 AX multi bit cd player via coax output. This transport never skips and I’ve had it for decades. 
 

I have to assume this new dac will run circles around the Rotel, but not sure if the Rotel as a transport will do any justice for the new dac?

My thought was I would run it this way while I save up for a high end streamer.

Any thoughts ????

Best wishes,

Don

Everyone hears different and in their own setup/room

I don't find the Harmony to be bright at all and I'm about 2 months in.

Obviously Hans Beekhuyzen spent a great deal of time putting together his review of the LAiV Harmony DAC. I'm very curious as to how many hours of use he put on the DAC prior to his critical listing. 

Hans proclaims that he does not like Spikes because they can damage your furniture.  Really?, that is his Audiophile explanation as to why Spikes are bad?

He makes no mention as to how may hours are on the unit he tests.  It's been extensively discussed here that hours matter on this unit.

The sound is on the "Bright-side"?  Hmm, ok.  I have read many, many reviews now both here and elsewhere, and nobody else has made that insinuation.

I appreciate him discussing the build of the unit but won't be relying heavily on his audio review.  Yes I know, he did get me to "Click" on it.

Hey friends,

Thanks for sharing the review on the Augiogon forum, one of our largest owners discussion groups beside Headfi / Facebook!

At LAiV, we respect opinions from all works of life, be it from the owners who enjoy the DAC immensely, or, from the customers who tried the DAC but find it doesn’t suit their taste and music genres they often listen to.

To us, it’s a good and respectable review. This reflects our beliefs and values as stated above, and also validates that LAiV solicited reviews thus far are genuine and honest.

While the review outcome of this particular one wasn’t favourably, we respect that wholeheartedly and appreciate different opinions. One man’s meat could be another man’s poison. That is what makes the music-first-audiophile hobby interesting and enjoyable at the same time.

We will reach out to Hans to learn more about it. We sincerely hope Hans welcomes our suggestions and willing to spend more time with the Harmony DAC. We certainly hope that the DAC will work in Hans’ system(s) after going through setup optimisation with the several components he has.

Until then, enjoy the music!

Sincerely, 

Weng Fai, Hoh

LAiV Audio

He’s usually spot on. 

Or he just decided he would get more clicks by posting a different opinion.