Great conversation... I was selling most of the above gear back in the 70's and 80's... Brings back memories... Many diverse opinions as always in this hobby.
Sold enough Klipsch to be able to drink too much whiskey with Paul Klipsch himself and remember him saying through the fog "What the world really needed was a good 10 watt amplifier!" Yep, K-Horns 104db at 1 watt!
I think my pride and joy around then at home was a Marantz 2230 while some of my clients just had to have that Phase Linear 700 or an AmpZilla!
Sold enough B&W to drink wine with John Bowers and hear his wisdom on B&W's efforts to make their products sound wonderful as well as be reliable... In John's words "We make every effort to make our speakers idiot proof... the problem we find is that idiots are so F...ing ingenious!"
These guys always made me laugh... Some AG forums do too!
I often had to leave the sound room when doing demos on K-horns, Belle's, La Scala's, Cornwall's etc because after long hours on the sales floor I was craving peace and quiet... Too much Dark Side of the Moon or E. Power Biggs maybe... And OMG delivering them to a home was often insane... especially when an unsuspecting wife said "and exactly where are THOSE going to go???"
Regardless, I often used a double stack of La Scala speakers as live sound reinforcement... Great for big bands like Tommy Dorsey or Jim Miller... They were the "LIVE" sound of the day for those crowds of listeners. La Scala's were great for portable sound back then, not only because of their remarkable efficiency but because the horns provided "SQ throw" that other designs did not have... Electro Voice LR7's like the Beatles were set up to perform with were not even close... JBL was also great after their Bi Radial horns appeared but they were not as efficient and I remember them being harder to move due to their weight... Probably denser particle board compared to the Klipsch birch marine grade plywood which could also stand up to incredible abuse, even rain.
I did own several versions of Heresy speakers and it's interesting to know that the very reason Paul Kilpsch called them "Heresy" was because in his mind that is exactly what they were! Remember to enjoy the music!
If this guy wasn't trying to punk us, then he must be judged as an absolute nitwit. 90% of speakers have frequency limitations, so what? There is a niche for vintage Klipsch gear, like the Cornscala's, that makes a lot of folks very happy with the music they hear through them. Super easy to drive, no question, with lots of dynamics.
The first potent audio system I ever heard in my life was in the 5 Corners Saloon in Dinkytown in Minneapolis, which had 4 Cornerhorns in the bar, driven by a potent Crown amp and a nice Thorens TT. Quite frankly, the sound in that bar that day drove me to my first good set of audio gear and it has never stopped, 46 years later. I will argue with anyone that denigrates vintage Klipsch gear... the Dr. Klipsch is enshrined in every audio society HOF of which I am aware. They build of their older speakers is simply amazing.
Was his reference the Cerwin Vega's standing behind him?!?! What finish is that black veneer or black carpet? I mean this guy couldn't even mic his video properly. I don't think he is so concerned with nuance.
However, I will say that I am a little disappointed in how the Forte III's are marginally built for the price they demand. I mean, no bracing, no cabinet treatment, no cast speaker frame. I watched a video of a guy modding a pair and it left me scratching my head wondering "Why did Klipsh do that?" They are still vintage sexy looking. Just need the price to come down or construction quality to go up and I will get in line.
there were more choices than just Klipsch back in the day..many many McIntosh dealers also carried Bozak the vaunted Concert Grand with a Mc275 could be magical in the room and next door....
I know of this first hand circa 1965 with a Mc240 and B-305 ( half a concert grand )
I have a great pair of Cornwalls I run in the workshop / garage with a variety of flea watt amps, and IF things get serious and the neighborhood needs to rock, a SS RANE pro sound amp....
Never a horn fan but I can understand the appeal. I will say that of the horns I have heard, Klipsch were among the worst to my ears. But if you like them then enjoy. I remember growing up near Cedar Rapids IA and visiting one of the stereo shops in this town turned me off for years to Klipsch speakers due to the attitude of the salesman who was a Klipsch Nazi. Guy was a knob.
Here ya go!! THX is a high-fidelity audio/visual reproduction standard for movie theaters, screening rooms, home theaters, computer speakers, gaming consoles, and car audio systems. The current THX was created in 2002 when it spun off from Lucasfilm Ltd. THX was developed by Tomlinson Holman at George Lucas’s company, Lucasfilm, in 1983 to ensure that the soundtrack for the third Star Wars film, Return of the Jedi, would be accurately reproduced in the best venues. THX was named after Holman, with the "X" standing for "crossover" as well as an homage to Lucas’s first film, THX 1138. The distinctive crescendo used in the THX trailers, created by Holman’s coworker James A. Moorer, is known as the "Deep Note". The THX system is not a recording technology, and it does not specify a sound recording format: all sound formats, whether digital or analog, can be "shown in THX." THX is mainly a quality assurance system. THX-certified theaters provide a high-quality, predictable playback environment to ensure that any film soundtrack mixed in THX will sound as near as possible to the intentions of the mixing engineer. THX also provides certified theaters with a special crossover circuit whose use is part of the standard. Certification of an auditorium entails specific acoustic and other technical requirements; architectural requirements include a floating floor, baffled and acoustically treated walls, no parallel walls, a perforated screen, and NC30 rating for background noise.
THX is a high-fidelity audio/visual reproduction standard for movie theaters, screening rooms, home theaters, computer speakers, gaming consoles, and car audio systems. The current THX was created in 2002 when it spun off from Lucasfilm Ltd. THX was developed by Tomlinson Holman at George Lucas’s company, Lucasfilm, in 1983 to ensure that the soundtrack for the third Star Wars film, Return of the Jedi, would be accurately reproduced in the best venues. THX was named after Holman, with the "X" standing for "crossover" as well as an homage to Lucas’s first film, THX 1138. The distinctive crescendo used in the THX trailers, created by Holman’s coworker James A. Moorer, is known as the "Deep Note". The THX system is not a recording technology, and it does not specify a sound recording format: all sound formats, whether digital or analog, can be "shown in THX." THX is mainly a quality assurance system. THX-certified theaters provide a high-quality, predictable playback environment to ensure that any film soundtrack mixed in THX will sound as near as possible to the intentions of the mixing engineer. THX also provides certified theaters with a special crossover circuit whose use is part of the standard. Certification of an auditorium entails specific acoustic and other technical requirements; architectural requirements include a floating floor, baffled and acoustically treated walls, no parallel walls, a perforated screen, and NC30 rating for background noise.
One thing I can say is the original (style)
Klipsch horns could make a LOT of bass! Back in the mid 1970s we used the bass part (the cabinet) as sub-woofers in some disco places we built. One place had three pairs stacked on top of each other! Each pair driven with
McIntosh MC2300 amps. The hard part was figuring out how to stop the turntables from feeding back!
One thing I can say is that the JBL Aquaplas compression drivers are the most relaxed, juicy and vibrant I’ve heard. They really put the energy of the music out but in a natural and distortion free manner. Quite remarkable. Got a pair to demo and I’m kinda smitten. Probably keep them!
As we've all heard specs are not the be all end all when it comes to the palatability of a speaker, but conceptionally it's a good place to start.Knock this reviewer if you want, but the guys right,
Heresy's
are a white elephant. If one purchases a pair of speakers and you have to add bells/whistles, subs, and modify (although I am an ardent
advocate of mods), perhaps it's time to rethink your choice.
Heresy's
are not a bad sounding speaker (with good components upstream), but from a frequency response prospective, why even consider them? Go with the Cornwalls and modify them. The Cornwalls
are such a better platform to build on, why waist your time monkeying with
Heresy's.
Take a look at the crap he sells on EBay . Odd tubes that “ somebody “ tested, vintage receivers that are not serviced , and other garage sale crap . I like his disclaimer that he “ video records “ the internals so “ parts pirates “ don’t try to steal and return . He must have been raised in an Eastern Bloc scrap yard . I bet he’ll sell you the gold from his mother’s teeth .
@thehorn- lest not forget he is writing for an UK mag and therefore catering mostly for UK readers, whose houses/apartments etc are not as generally large enough to take accommodate huuuuge loudspeakers, not forgetting UK women are less tolerant of 'clutter' than the average (joke). Mr Hughes is very knowledgable with the horn sound? as he owns a pair of the rather marvelous 3 way Impulse H1's and has had them since 1989. Wait a minute, I own a pair to!.....lol
The Heresy IIIs aren't any sort of "white elephant" except to those who don't know what that term actually means. The exact mid horn and tweeter as Cornwalls at half the weight and price, and the price difference alone would allow the purchase of a swarm of woofers (pun intended). I'll take that efficient and smaller sized fat little box, and a couple of RELs to make things outstandingly good. I modded my Heresy IIIs by damping the mid horn after succumbing to intense and relentless pressure from outside influences, but mods? No need...I do dust them from time to time, and the latest sort of "mod" that worked around here was the new 7581A tubes in my little single ended power amp. I understand the design choice Klipsch made with the 12" woofer...utter control of the range it's utilized for, with a tight and coherent tonal presentation matching the other drivers perfectly. Klipsch has options for those with needs that require larger things, but Heresy IIIs with subs are heard to beat.
Wolfy
Thank you for reinforcing my point, and if you prefer, how's a
red herring?
Heresy IIIs: Frequency Respose 58Hz – 20kHz
Cornwall
IIIs: Frequency Respose
34Hz - 20kHz Right off the hop the listener is missing out on 24Hz of the music spectrum.
As I stated in my post "If one purchases a pair of speakers and you have to add bells/whistles, subs, and modify (although I am an ardent
advocate of mods), perhaps it's time to rethink your choice". And what do you say? "a couple of RELs to make things outstandingly good". So now your taking up even more space with the RELs/
Heresy
than you would with the Cornwalls, plus, now you're dealing with phasing issues. You also go on to say "and the price difference alone would allow the purchase of a swarm of woofers". That's economical isn't.
You're saving nothing, taking up more space, introducing phasing issues, why are you trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear? If you'd re-read what I wrote "
Heresy's
are not a bad sounding speaker", "
The Cornwalls
are such a better platform to build on". To close the
Cornwalls
are easier to drive, 102dB, as opposed to the
Heresy's
99dB, plus you get a 15" bottom end driver as opposed to the 12" that comes with the Heresy, not only giving you a wider frequency response, but also fuller richer sound
engineered
right from the factory .
Porcine metaphors aside, I don’t buy speakers as a platform to build on as it’s more that I simply add things that fit my existing "platform" and enjoy them or toss ’em out as needed. Also, please add the term "red herring" to "white elephant" in your list of terms you might not actually understand, as knowledge can often have a calming effect. Note also that Heresy IIIs with a Swarm (an actual AudioKinesis product) would likely sound astonishingly more coherent than any Cornwall could hope for, but my RELs (with phase adjustment for days) sound pretty great so I don’t care...and I do manage to get by with 99db efficiency somehow, especially if I sit REAL CLOSE. I’ve owned this pair of RELs for years and they’re unobtrusive in my listening room to the point of being nearly invisible, so although I appreciate your concern about space, it’s a non issue in my place. The Cornwalls price, large size, and design simply don’t cut it for me in my current situation where the Heresy IIIs have worked out perfectly...right from the same factory! I’m a professional sound engineer and musician and when phase issues raise their ugly heads in my listening room I address it...Out of Here Damn Phase Issues! Like that...now I’m hungry for some herring...I prefer kippered.
@wolf, I hope you aren't still angry with me. @thehorn, I think you are pretty ignorant, and no question opinionated. Every speaker ever made, whether Klipsch or otherwise, shows a compromise in some way. Every speaker is made to a price point, and can be improved upon further. Can you name a speaker that does not have at least 1 or 2 compromises. At every price level of the 5 original Heritage models, from the beginning to the present, they are, and have been, as good as anything out there. Keep in mind, that we all are different listeners, and each of us are as individualistic as the next. I have owned more speakers than I would like to admit, and I have heard many more in my lifetime. What " perfect " speaker do you own, or are you aware of ? I will await your response. Enjoy ! MrD.
Florida71 wrote: "To each his/her own, but a pair of 12” drivers shouldn’t need a subwoofer."
There is a tradeoff relationship between low-end extension, box size, and efficiency. A high efficiency woofer, regardless of its diameter, has to trade off low-end extension in order to get that high efficiency. Along the way, the lighter cone and powerful magnet make the high efficiency woofer pretty articulate higher up the spectrum. I don’t know the particulars of the woofer in the Heresy, but it probably has a motor-strength-to-moving-mass ratio that compares favorably with cute little audiophile midwoofers.
And here’s how box size fits in: In order to have another octave of low-end extension and maintain the same efficiency, the Heresy would need a box EIGHT TIMES the size. This is assuming a such a woofer exists, and to the best of my knowledge it doesn’t. Much cheaper and more practical to add subs.
One may or may not agree with the tradeoffs Klipsh chose for the Heresy, but imo they did a competent juggling of those tradeoffs.
See, I never considered the Heresy speakers to be floorstanders or "full range" but more fat and heavy "bookshelf" speakers. With some boundary gain in a small room, they can dig a bit deeper but add a nice, fast, and tight sealed sub to the mix and they can wow many folks.
@audiokinesis Let's remember also that the Heresy is a sealed design and has no ports to help out with bass extension.
I'm not sure if mr. horn is just trolling, but many people prefer monitors much smaller than the Heresy with the same or less bass extension and mate them with a subwoofer(s). Red herring indeed. There are many ways to skin a cat.
If you have the space for a set of Cornwalls or Klipschorns, great. If you prefer their sound, great.
For those that would like something smaller or maybe need to put it in a corner or are going to sit close to the speakers, the Heresy is a nice option. I have mine in a small office mated to a tube integrated and they sound fantastic. I have room for a small sub next to them, and have all the bass I want and/or need.
I set them up in my main system for a few days and while they sounded good there, they don't have the grunt to fill up that much larger room like my KLF-30's or Legacy Audio Focus 20/20's do, but that's not why I bought the Heresy.
I replaced every driver and the crossovers in my Heresy speakers, not because they sounded bad or even that I thought I had to, mostly just because my Heresy I are about 30 years old and it seemed like a good idea and was relatively inexpensive to do. I actually thought they sounded worse (more detailed) after I did it, but they have settled down and sound great with tube amplification.
With a name like 'Rossi', he is of Italian extraction. Maybe. There is a joke about the shape of italy. For fear of upsetting my mother, I will refrain from saying it.......
Its a damn shame that PWK is not with us today with all the technology etc that would be at his disposal, I am sure he would be able to make a killer horn to rival anything out there. I am surprised he never made the mid range horn with a larger diameter (11/16) to let the mid range breath more openly. My H1's have a 3" speaker cone and a much shorter horn in length but are 14" across. The mid range frequenicies are very open and excellent.
There's a reason why comments are disabled on the video the OP referred to.... Too many people would disagree with him. Mr. Rossi Audio clearly has no room in his world for any opinion but his own.
I have had many speakers over the years, my current Heresy III are probably one of the most enjoyable. The first speaker that has made me listen to the music and not analyse my system. Big, live sound out of a small box. Their strengths far outweigh their weakness at this price point in my opinion. They replaced a pair of Revel M106, a great speaker but they sound lifeless compared to the Heresy. Right now I am listening to the Claypool Lennon Delirium, a quirky psych rock treat that sounds awesome through tbe Heresy.
I bought a pair of H1 speakers when I first started to get in to high end audio. I liked them. They were good for the price. Eventually I moved up the ladder to different equipment. I Gave them to a friend who is still using them with a Fisher 500C receiver and they still sound good. I have seen and heard these speakers in bars and clubs over the years and they are fun to listen to. They are not like the high end speakers made today but when I hang out playing pool and having a beer in my friends basement, they are lively and fun in that atmosphere. Chillin and not critically listening. Great party speakers.
To understand why Klipsch speakers (whether K-horns or Heresy) are so polarizing it is important to recognize that most all speakers do SOMETHING well. I feel I can speak with authority about the Klipsch corner horns because I owned a pair for 8 years in the '70's in a 30' room driven by everything from an Advent receiver (15 wpc) to a Crown DC300. What they had was dynamic range. Compared to the acoustic suspension speakers that were in fashion at the time the horns jumped out at you and had a HUGE presence. They were really a PA speaker, like many JBL's. The midrange would become very fatiguing in short order and the highs were like razor blades across your eardrums, but they filled my room with effortless power, even from 15 wpc. My friend, a trombone player, had Heresy's (and still has them). He likes them because they accentuate the frequency range the trombone occupied; warm and woofy. You pays yer' money and you takes yer' choice!
@robert53- Interesting comments you have made. Obviously our ears and end goals in hi-fi are different for the particular sound/s that we want. Mr Hughes being a reviewer I presume has listened to many speakers in his time since 1989 when he reviewed the H1's. You say they are not high end speakers which to your ears they are not. I have to disagree with you and I am Mr Hughes would to as he is still using them to this day. They never come up for sale, so they must so something right, or to the owner's on these speakers have a drink problem? lol. If your friend ever wants to sell them, or indeed if you know of a pair that needs a new home. Please let me know. They are my end goal speakers, and maybe Mr Hughes's to...
Running a set of RF7-III's right now and I LOVE them with zero buyers remorse. I spent a lot of time auditioning speakers after a near impulse buy of my MAC6700 on craigslist. Every speaker in the $2k-$3k price range was half the size and didn't give me that jackhammering rock and roll music I like. at 100 dB, too, with 200 wpc I often tell my wife "Plug your ears for this part". I think one of the advantages Klipsch has, is that they have a HUGE dealer network. I even found a place in Toledo to demo the RF7's on a McIntosh amp for me. And side by side listening to the helicopter come in near the beginning of "The Wall" and stuff like that, nothing in their price range could touch them. The XR100's at the McIntosh dealer definitely sounded better (less bright) but at $10k a set I was good with Klipsch for less than 1/3 of that.
I can understand criticisms of Klipsch. I did not warm to sound of my early 80's era Klipschorns in original form. Shouty mids made them virtually unlistenable, and that with SET amp. Still, I could hear potential in them, so decided upgrades were in order. Keeping somewhat to original design I kept shallow slope crossovers (Crites AA), which were further altered to A design with Audyn True Copper Max and Jupiter VT caps, Duelund internal wiring, higher quality solder tag strips and Vampire binding posts. All drivers upgraded, Volti horns on mids.
I've owned and heard many speakers over the years, never heard a more lifelike presentation. Klipschorns, even in stock form have awesome macro and micro dynamics and a fairly high level of resolution and transparency. Mine now have a much more natural tonality and timbre such that I can have multi hour listening sessions with little or no fatigue.
I haven't looked closely at newest heritage products, if using cheap caps and bad horns they will continue to be a letdown in stock form. Based on the number of people happily modding Klipschs, nice design diminished by inferior parts and implementation.
The following comment is mostly rhetorical and possibly mildly comedic in nature, and not worthy of reply, thus saving the reader from having to think about it much if at all:
What is the number of people happily modding Heresy IIIs? I need to know...If there are "cheap caps" and "bad horns" (put there by corrupt Klipsch technicians caving to the Cheap Cap and Bad Horn lobby) in my almost stock (mid horns damped with dampy stuff, which may have improved something...can't remember) Heresy IIIs it's possibly a miracle they manage to sound as excellent as they do. Modded Heresy IIIs ("updated" pre 2006 versions excepted for the purpose of this post), although discussed on forums like this one, are certainly a tiny fraction of the numbers sold to people "happily" enjoying them (but are they really happy?). It's also worth noting that reviewers who report positively about Heresy IIIs haven't modded their review samples. I haven't heard new Klipschorns as I don't care about them...too big, and I got that sort of thing out of my system with the A7s I owned years ago...but I have heard new Heresy, Forte, and Cornballs that sound great in stock form.
Apologies to anyone who read my now deleted post and may have thought it was aimed at someone as a derogatory comment. I made reference, in a state of nostalgia, to an actual product that I saw being sold by a Klipsh dealer "back in the day" It was a plane white spray can, ostensibly from Klipsh, that had a large "BS" spelled out on it. It was alleged to be Paul Klipsh's response to those who felt they had a better product or idea than his Klipshhorns.
One more thing about how horrible Klipsch is.... I had a bad mid driver and instead of just sending the diaphram they sent the whole drive unit. I then bought a diaphram from Simply Speakers and now have a new driver on deck should anything ever happen down the road.
Years ago a friend had me listen to his system w LaScalas and it was an OMG experience! We were young & so was Hi End audio. It opened me to the possibilities of great,(to me) sounding gear. Have been enjoying music ever since.
One more thing about how horrible Klipsch is.... I had a bad mid driver and instead of just sending the diaphram they sent the whole drive unit. I then bought a diaphram from Simply Speakers and now have a new driver on deck should anything ever happen down the road.
you did tell them the driver was bad?, then they sent a new drive unit in good faith. Then you realized it was the diaphram? and you kept the new unit? how does that make Klipsch the company horrible? guess you would have complained in they only sent you a diaphram? My comments are all assumptions on my part.
Love the Dudes Dark Sunglasses propped on his head for the dark and dank inside video shoot. Love my Heresy 1 from 1981 . Found them on CL and had Bob Crites modernize the crossovers. They are different than any of the other speaker pairs I own and they sound best when hooked up to my Van Alstine Ultravalve. Knowing the shortcomings and being able to enjoy them for what they are is heaven. To each his own. I like the fact he disables comments to avoid getting trashed . I could not spend the time listening to his follow-up video . He really needed to defend himself I suppose. Loves his Cerwin Vega SUBS and wants to be a custom builder. Lets see if in 10 years he has been able to convert any of 50 years of Klipsh diehards to his way of thinking.
Personally, I have enjoyed my short time with the Klipsch Belle’s and the Chorus II’s. Music is supposed to be a fun distraction, not a beat down for what one person likes/dislikes.
Now, maybe I will go listen to some Diana Krall...:)
I have some vintage Klipschorns from the '70s and they are still in regular use albeit with modern Bob Krite crossovers. I love the big sound and also the finesse that they are capable of. Used with vintage and modern valve amps. A Miniwatt is a perfect amp for them. I doubt I will ever part with them.
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