I concur with GPGR4Blu... "ARC which will be more transparent, open and expansive, but not strident."
In my experience at RMAF for several years, ARC amps have been consistently my favorite amps, together with Rowland and Solution. They all meet my sound/musical concept.
Unfortunately, high power tubed amps like ARC require upkeep to maintain top notch performance -- tubes sag over time. I personally prefer to have "launch & forget" devices in my home.
G. |
Based on what Al has written it seems that the ARC tube amplifiers may utilize a larger degree of negative feedback (NFB) than the VAC amplifiers. I say this due to the lower output impedance (higher damping factor ) of the ARCs. Depending on the particular speakers this can be advantageous. It truly is dependent on the speaker design and intent of the builder. The Sabrinas could require amplifiers with more NFB with the resultant lower output impedance. Again, nothing substitutes for actual listening experiences. Charles, |
ARC, Mac and Airtight will all work with Sabrinas and they will all sound completely different. The Mac--warm, rounded, rich but slightly veiled in comparison to ARC which will be more transparent, open and expansive, but not strident. I have owned both with Wilsons and these are my conclusions. Airtight is an excellent company whose amps I have enjoyed listening to but never with Wilsons. Good luck. |
Do you think I should try the ARC reference 150 with the Aeris? Or the Air Tight tube amp? Or am I going in too many directions? |
Thanks so much Al. I got it!! |
Rinpoche 5-24-2016 5:18pm EDT The tap discussion is way above my head but I am writing it down and when I go to the shop to hear the VAC 200 iq system I will ask about it. If the VAC 200 iq is one of the winners, and I get to bring it home to try with the Wilson’s -- I will report back on the combo for sure. But, if I hear you both correctly, the 8 tap is possibly the one to try first? Then the 4? Absolutely not, in my opinion. And my apologies for wording my previous post more technically than I should have. I don’t doubt that the 8 ohm tap may very well be the best tap to use with the Sabrina when it is driven by a Macintosh MC-275 tube amp or by most Audio Research tube amps, as was stated by an exceptionally credible and knowledgeable source (Peter McGrath). However my basic point was that the MC-275 (and other McIntosh tube amps), as well as most ARC tube amps, are COMPLETELY different animals than both VAC amps and the majority of other high quality tube amps, especially in regard to major differences in their output impedances. Which in turn are especially relevant to tap selection. Differences in amplifier output impedance mean differences in the tonal effects that result from the interaction of amplifier output impedance with the variations of speaker impedance over the frequency range. Given all that has been said, I agree with the others that all taps on the 200iq should be tried, but my guess is that the 1 to 2 ohm tap has the best chance of being optimal, the 2 to 4 ohm tap has the next best chance of being optimal, and the 4 to 8 ohm tap has the least chance of being optimal. Among those three taps on the 200iq, by the way, the 1 to 2 ohm tap will come closest to the behavior of a solid state amp (such as the Rowland) insofar as the tonal effects of the interaction of its output impedance with the impedance characteristics of the speaker are concerned. Although of course there will still be differences between the Rowland and the VAC, resulting from both impedance interactions and the intrinsic sonic characters of the two amps. On the two higher impedance taps of the VAC, look particularly for signs of excessive brightness, and/or for weakness in certain parts of the lower bass region, and/or for poorly defined bass. Best of luck, and best regards, -- Al |
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For now the 625 S2 would be connected directly to the Aeris. Same with the VAC. However, and I do hesitate to throw some other amps into the discussion, but what do you feel about Dan A'gostino The Classic Amp? Is that a crazy alternative? Too much for the little Sabrinas? |
You are correct. there are no speakers impedance adjustments in the Rowland M625 S2... Its output taps are expected to work for all common speaker varieties.
If you connect Aeris to M625 S2 directly, use the Aeris remote for setting volume at your preferred level. If there is a linestage between Aeris and M625, Set Aeris gain to unity/unattenuated... Solid right volume LED lit up, and then use the linestage to set listening level.
Bear in mind that results have a lot to do with the degree of break in of the devices you are testing.
Regards, G. |
Rinpoche, The "taps" are what you connect the speaker cables to on the rear of the amplifier. They are clearly labeled as 2 ohms,4 ohms, 8 ohms etc. The taps are in plain view. You'll have to listen to the different amplifier tap settings and just choose the one that sounds best to you. I'm glad you are enjoying this experience. Charles, |
The tap discussion is way above my head but I am writing it down and when I go to the shop to hear the VAC 200 iq system I will ask about it. If the VAC 200 iq is one of the winners, and I get to bring it home to try with the Wilson's -- I will report back on the combo for sure. But, if I hear you both correctly, the 8 tap is possibly the one to try first? Then the 4?
Also, from what I understand, the JR amp doesn't need anything like this, right? It just needs to be adjusted via the Aeris according to the manual.
I am happy to hear there are fans of the JR 625S2/Aeris combination. And VAC lovers as well. At least I know I am in the right zone. Thanks |
Thanks for that input, RHL. I would point out, though, that the MC-275 in particular, and also most and perhaps nearly all ARC power amps in particular, have considerably lower output impedances (corresponding to higher damping factors) than most other high quality tube amps. And although those numbers are not specified for the various VAC models, I would feel very confident that difference would apply in their case.
And in fact the MC-275 is arguably almost in solid state territory in that respect, with a specified damping factor of "greater than 22" for the latest version, corresponding to an output impedance on the 8 ohm tap of less than 8/22 = 0.36 ohms.
Although the ARC GSi75 integrated which Pokey reported to work beautifully with the Sabrina is something of an exception in that regard, among ARC amps, having a specified damping factor of "approximately 4," which corresponds to a higher output impedance than is typical for their products. But assuming the 4 ohm tap was being used when he listened to it, I suspect the corresponding output impedance was probably still lower than on the 4 or 8 ohm taps of most or all VAC products.
On the other hand, though, there can sometimes be a tradeoff between which tap is most suitable for a particular speaker, and which tap results in the output stage of a particular amplifier seeing a load that it is happiest with (e.g., which results in the least amplifier-generated distortion, or amplifier-generated distortion that is least offensive in terms of its spectral distribution). So, yes, for that reason among others it would be advisable for Rinpoche to try all of the available taps.
Regards, -- Al
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One of the amplifiers used in the Stereophile review of the Sabrina was a Mac 275. The reviewer first used the 4 ohm tap and thought it sounded fine. Wilson's Peter McGrath mentioned that Audio Research amps sounded best from the 8 ohm tap. The Mac was switched to the 8 ohm tap and both McGrath and the reviewer preferred the 8 ohm tap. Therefore, setting the output tap to correspond to the lowest impedance dip may not result in the best sound. Even though the reviewer acknowledged the solid state amps provided deeper bass, he preferred the overall sound best with the tubed Mac 275. Comparing the anechoic frequency response whereby there is a pronounced upper bass hump to the impedance magnitude indicates this is where impedance is lowest. A tube amp will likely produce less drive in this range which may minimize the bass hump. It was also noted the Sabrina's bass Q was on the under damped side which a tube amp will tend to make more pronounced which may even things out. I prefer a quality tube amp for its more natural sound. Have fun in the auditioning process. |
Thanks for the references, Guido. I read through the one on "DAC-based Volume Control," and many of the others. All of which seemed to me to be informative, meaningful, and technically persuasive, yet concise and well presented.
A model that would be good for other manufacturers to follow on their websites, it seems to me. Assuming, of course, that they have similarly meaningful and technically persuasive information to present :-)
Best regards, -- Al
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Oops... You are right Al... 0 attenuation / unity gain is for DAC feeding a preamp... I Must be getting old! G. |
Al, the Aeris volume control is neither purely digital nor purely analog. Per the Rowland knowledge base, it operates by varying the reference voltage in the DAC chip. See:
http://jeffrowlandgroup.com/kb/questions.php?questionid=617
There is a variety of other technical information on the Aeris DAC in the Rowland knowledge base:
http://jeffrowlandgroup.com/kb/categories.php?categoryid=205
Regards, G. |
Again, a lot of good information is arising in this thread. To answer the question about what other speakers I auditioned -- I didn't. I had no intention of even purchasing speakers. I went to a Sabrina audition with Peter McGrath and lo and behold I was hooked. At the time it was used with MacIntosh equipment (not my favourite) but they sounded just great. I loved everything about them. The were refined, warm and yet alive all at the same time. I love the cabinet (also important to me). And by selling my older equipment I could afford them. I haven't listened to anything else. I think they are perfect. I just want to pair them with a good amp and be happy listening!! |
Ricred1 5-23-2016 9:14pm EDT I was originally told to set the attenuation on the DAC so that the left and right volume LED’s are of equal brightness. It could be that that setting would be appropriate for use with a preamp providing significantly higher gain than whatever gain your Corus may be set to. (The gain of the Corus is indicated as being "Independently Programmable 0 to 20 dB on each input"). I would guess that part of the rationale for the adjustment Guido and Mr. Rowland pointed you to might be that it would minimize possible sonic side-effects of the DAC’s volume control mechanism. Such as what is referred to as "bit stripping," if the volume control function is implemented digitally. In any event, glad that the issue is resolved. As I mentioned earlier it would seem, on paper at least, that your 625 S2 can provide much more power than would ever be used with your speakers. BTW, Guido, I think you may have inadvertently misworded the second paragraph of your post just above. I believe the reference to unity value should be for use with a preamp, not "for direct use into amps." Best regards, -- Al |
Hi Richard, I freely admit that the UI for volume attenuation/gain on Aeris is a little, ahem.... Techno-terse.
I would have prefered an LED with attenuation values, in addition to an independent indicator that would light up when the unity value optimum for direct use into amps is reached.... E.g. same solid LED, but with label "Direct".
In general, you will find the Aeris manual to be a pretty good source of operational info on the device. Volume control for direct use into amps is discussed on page 16.
Delighted that with Aeris at 0dB attenuation, your M625 S2 delivers all the juice you need for your hungry speakers!
Saluti, Guido |
"Pokey77, ARC GSi75 is using KT150 and 200iq is 100 wpc with KT88 so my guess it can handle a tougher load?? 200iq can roll KT150 and I mentioned to dealer it would be an interesting experiment." Knghifi, let me say, I'm not all that knowledge about tube gear. I just know what I like. And when I heard that ARC amp the first time, the presenter made a special point of it employing the KT150 tubes; I would guess to imply that the amp is stronger than rated. I can tell you that many at the demo were amazed at the power, grip, resolve, and transparency that the GSi75 demonstrated. To us, it sounded like it had significantly more power than its reported 75 wpc. -I've not heard that much tube gear that really impressed me, and I've heard much more expensive tube gear driving significantly pricier speakers, but the GSi75 integrated with the Sabrina's is, for me, heaven. It has that tube magic with SS resolve and clarity. I have no idea what the VAC and the Rowland in this thread sound like. If I've heard them at a show, I have no real recollection.
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Guido,
I love the Aeris DAC's sound, but dislike the way the gain is accomplished. Per your statement, "If you use a preamp between Aeris and amp, you should set the Aeris attenuation to the DAC's equivalent of unity gain: per the Aeris manual, the right volume LED is lit up solid without flashing." I was originally told to set the attenuation on the DAC so that the left and right volume LED's are of equal brightness. I didn't have enough gain, so I settled on 10 clicks below the right volume LED flashing. I reached out to Rowland three days ago and yesterday Mr. Rowland told me to adjust the gain as you stated. What a difference and I was thinking of selling my 625 S2 and getting the 725 S2's for more power...NOT ANYMORE, THE 625 S2 HAS PLENTY OF POWER now that the gain on the Aeris has been correctly set. |
All, looks like I am a little late to this Rowland/VAC watering hole... Here are some clarifications about M625 S2 and Aeris DAC....
1. The M625 series operates in higher bias class A/B. It does not run in class D, as someone seems to hav suggested instead.
The current version of M625 is M625 S2. This model delivers 325W / 8 Ohms instead of the 300 of the original. Internally, it has several enhancements over the original and its sound considerably more refined. A while ago I received some details from the factory:
...
The 625 S2 improves upon the original 625 in a number of
important areas.
We have taken the existing circuit topology and improved the
important distortion specification at higher frequencies (above 2kHz) to a
virtually unmeasureable level extending beyond 20 kHz .
This was accomplished with an innovative error correction
technique previously unknown, or never implemented in the art of amplifier
design.
The S2 incorporates a new custom designed input transformer
and linear phase low pass filter for improved input signal buffering and EMI
immunity.
Gold plated Cardas XLR input connectors with Rhodium
contacts and teflon insulation provides a visually distinguishing
appearance from the original 625 and provides improved signal integrity.
The S2 amplifier incorporates ceramic Rogers circuit board
material for reduced dielectric energy storage.
The S2 Power Factor Corrected regulated Power supply
improves upon the original 625 by incorporating Jensen four-pole capacitors
which offers nearly an order of magnitude
reduction of output impedance and noise suppression.
The power supply output voltage has been increased slightly to yield a 25 watt
increase in total amplifier power output.
...
I have received the M625 S2 manual complete with technical specs. Here is a link to it on my public DropBox. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53640097/JRDG_M625_S2_MANUAL_REVA1.pdf
And here is a link to the January 2016 review article on HiFi News:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53640097/HFN_Jeff%20Rowlad%20625%20S2_hires.pdf
All Rowland amps can be driven successfully from the Aeris DAC without a preamp in between... I drive my own Aeris directly into my M925 monos. If you use a preamp between Aeris and amp, you should set the Aeris attenuation to the DAC's equivalent of unity gain: per the Aeris manual, the right volume LED is lit up solid without flashing.
I have used Aeris on its own as well as with the Rowland Criterion linestage. Criterion is the now discontinued battery-powered version of Corus. With Criterion between amp and DAC the presentation is slightly softer/warmer, while driving Aeris into amps directly, resolution and transparency is maximized and background noise essentially non existent.
It is worth pointing out that Aeris as well as Rowland amps take a very long time to break in completely.... Complete stability is achieved at approximately the 1500 hours mark. Particularly, evaluating such electronics with less than 800 hours on them will yield false results... Aeris for example may still sound subtly peaky in the treble... Yet, there is nothing peaky in a fully stabilized Aeris... Sound is extremely complex and rich, without emphasis on any particular band of the spectrum.
As for Rowland delivering magic... Yes, Aeris + my M925 monos do deliver extreme magic to my ears. It is my conjecture that the combination of Aeris with M625 S2 would be as satisfying, while not attaining the same enormous scale of power-dependent parameters. Eventually, I hope to be able to verify this hypothesis in my own system.
BTW, there is now M725 in production.... Essentially same circuitry of M625 S2, but in monoblock configuration. 330W/8 with 1200W DC SMPS and dedicated PFC unit in each chassis.
Let me know if you need further information.
Regards, Guido
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Rinpoche, what other loudspeakers did you listen to when you picked the Sabrinas?
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jbrrp1,
I also have a VAC SigMKIIa pre and just had it upgraded to SE several months ago. Kevin offers an upgrade every decade and I STRONLY recommend it. A No Brainer!
I'm driving the TAD E1 with ARC Ref250SE and Hegel H30. H30 in the summer and backup. |
Of course one can build a system around any particular component that uniquely floats their boat. If it turns out to be the VAC amp, a very enticing piece, and the results with the Wilson's are not suitable, you could easily elect to sell the Wilson's and go with speakers better suited to enable the VAC to shine its best.
Many roads indeed but not all are created equal.
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Knghifi, I agree with you in that there are numerous very good choices available. I'm curious to read how the VAC iq matches with the Sabrinas. Many roads led to Rome. Charles, |
knghifi,
Those are some good points. I have a VAC Ren Sig II that is a very nice sounding tubed preamp that plays happily with any amplifier setup, and I have tried SS amps, but I always come back to tube amps. They just bring me closer to the palpable sense I get at live music events, and as much as I would like the convenience of SS, it doesn't do the same for me. Of course, I haven't tried anything close to all of the SS contenders, but I'm too happy with my tubes right now for that. It all gets down to our personal reactions as to what is sonically important, and there is no accounting for that - - we like what we like.
Interesting that your TAD E1's are not too fussy in placement. I was captivated by those at the Zesto Audio demo at RMAF 2014, and that is what got me investigating the TAD line and eventually ending up with the CR-1's. The E1's are a great speaker. I find the CR-1's to be quite dependent upon placement for issues of imaging and for harmonic fill in the upper bass, lower midrange, so they seem to be less forgiving - - kind of their reputation! But when you do get them right, boy, do they sing so sweetly and so true!
I'm curious, what amp are you driving your E1's with?
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Do you happen to know which output tap they were using on the 200iq?
almarg, They mentioned 2.4 ohm impedance dip before hooking up the amp. I heard a 2 but not sure if 1-2 or 2-4 tap. pokey77, ARC GSi75 is using KT150 and 200iq is 100 wpc with KT88 so my guess it can handle a tougher load?? 200iq can roll KT150 and I mentioned to dealer it would be an interesting experiment. jbrrp1, I have TAD E1. It's 2 dbs more efficient than CR-1 @4 ohm. It's the least fuzzy setup speaker I've ever owned. It's doesn't boom and sounds great plucking them anywhere. I drive them with tube and SS amps. Wilsons are a little different from my experience, rinpoche, when you audition the 200iq, I suggests also audition a SS amp for comparison. If I was to buy the Sabrina, buy a VAC pre that has low output impedance and an used SS amp. For under $5000, Parasound JC-1 is a great option. It has low and high bias setting. Use low to watch TV and high for listening to music. For under $10,000, you can get Pass XA160.5, Bryston 28B-SST2, Hegel H30, Ayre MX-R ... lots of excellent options. So pre + used SS amp are a smidgen more than Sigma 160iSE. My .02! |
It’s strictly subjective as to what combination of components someone would prefer to drive these or any speakers. Yes preference is 100% subjective. But performance is not and can be measured. Performance is key to the best sound possible IMHO though any sound might be preferred still. Limitations with performance may take longer to discover as amp is asked to work harder over a period of time. Like putting a very good quality but undersized engine in a performance vehicle. Best sound over time usually occurs when components are not required to run harder than designed to and able to deliver the music with ease. |
Inna, It's strictly subjective as to what combination of components someone would prefer to drive these or any speakers. For instance I had a friend's Lamm push-pull tube amplifier in my system and I didn't care for it, my friend agreed. That's just us, another listener could have the opposite impression or be somewhere in the middle.
Best case scenario is that you must actually do some listening with audio components to come to a definitive conclusion. Rinpoche is taking the right approach. 2nd factor is confidence in yourself and trusting what you hear. Charles, |
Hi everyone. Never heard Wilsons though heard a lot of them. Would LAMM pre/power plus some DAC beat both Rowland and VAC overall? LAMM hybrid power, I mean. What if it could? |
rinpoche I would say Al's technical wizardry and completely correct explanation notwithstanding try each output tap until you find the one that sounds best to you. It's likely to be the one Al suggests but it may not be, we all have different ears. Have fun!
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Wow, that was amazing. And in some broad sense I think I understand. Not the technical specificities, but the general theory you explained. I will remember that when I go to hear the 200 iq. I am a bit obsessed now, wanting it to be done — and just to be home listening, but it is a process and the results will be something I live with for a while to come, so patience here is a virtue. Thank you all, especially Al, for explaining and walking me through the intricacies of this exciting adventure. I hear you — LOL, no pun intended. |
I wonder if you could expand on what you mean by ’ohm tap’ and which amp would be best in that regard with the Sabrinas? Rinpoche, most tube amps drive their outputs via a transformer, which converts the high voltage/low current signal that is processed by the tubes to a lower voltage/higher current signal that is needed to drive a speaker. Usually at least two transformation ratios are provided (i.e., how much the voltage is stepped down and how much the current is stepped up), including one that is theoretically best suited for 4 ohm speakers and one that is theoretically best suited for 8 ohm speakers. Those are provided on different terminals on the rear of the amp, and are referred to as "taps" because the terminals are connected internally to different points on the output "winding" of the transformer. The 200iq provides a third tap, theoretically best suited for speakers having even lower impedances. The circuitry in nearly all solid state amps operates at lower voltages and higher currents than the circuitry in nearly all tube amps, so most solid state amps do not need or have output transformers, or multiple output taps. If you click on the photo of the rear of the 200iq, shown on this page, you will see that their are a total of 8 binding posts/terminals, 4 for each channel. For each channel, one wire from the speaker (usually the black or negative one) connects to the "Com" terminal, and the other wire from the speaker (usually the red or positive one) connects to one of the other 3 terminals, corresponding to the chosen tap. Since most speakers have impedances that vary significantly over the frequency range, a nominally 4 ohm speaker will not always sound best when connected to an amp’s 4 ohm tap, and an 8 ohm speaker will not always sound best when connected to an amp’s 8 ohm tap. It is often best to try each of the taps that are provided. The impedance curves I have seen for several Focal speakers all show a substantial rise in impedance occurring in the upper mid-range and/or the treble regions. Throughout most of the spectrum your Sabrinas also have an impedance that rises considerably as frequency increases. The interaction of relatively high amplifier output impedance with those kinds of speaker impedance characteristics will result in a brighter sound than if the amplifier has a lower output impedance, everything else being equal. Output taps on a tube amp that are intended to drive lower impedances (e.g., 4 ohms) have lower output impedance than output taps intended to drive higher impedances (e.g., 8 ohms). Solid state amps almost always have effective output impedances that are near zero. So that probably explains why you perceived some brightness with the VAC/Focal combination, and I suspect explains why Knghifi perceived some brightness with the combination of the 200iq and the Sabrina (especially if the 1 to 2 ohm tap was not the one that was being used). The brightness was not the result of the amp’s intrinsic sonic characteristics, but rather was the result of a non-optimal impedance match to the speaker, which would be minimized (although perhaps not entirely eliminated) by using the 1 to 2 ohm tap that is provided on the 200iq. As far as power is concerned, considering the sensitivity of the Sabrina and the power capabilities of the VAC amps, as I mentioned early in the thread I suspect that if you were to have a problem it would only be on recordings having particularly wide dynamic range (i.e., particularly great DIFFERENCES between the volumes of the loudest notes and the softest notes). Some well engineered minimally compressed classical symphonic recordings come to mind, such as many of the Telarc orchestral recordings from the 1980’s that were notorious for having very high volume bass drum beats. On most recordings, and **perhaps** even on those, I don’t think you would have a problem, though. This assumes that your listening distance, room size, and volume preferences are not significantly greater than usual. Best regards, -- Al |
I wonder if you could expand on what you mean by 'ohm tap' and which amp would be best in that regard with the Sabrinas?
The JR will probably provide the power the Sabrinas need, but will the VAC Sigma and the 200 IQ? I felt the VAC was a bit bright (?) at times with these larger Focal speakers. But I still have yet to hear them amps with my own speakers. Once we narrow it down, I trust that will happen. |
Al, Yes, you are correct. I find that more power usually provides a sense of ease to the music. I can't say the JR 725's is significantly better, because I've never had it in my system. I would like to compare the two. I'm very, very happy with my system, but love to talk about audio and the possibilities.
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The only thing that I would want more of is power because of my room's dimensions and the size of my speakers.
Rick, the
Monitor Audio PL-500, at least in version ii, has a rated maximum power handling capability of 400 watts, and a nominal impedance of 4 ohms. Your Rowland 625 S2 amplifier can deliver 600 watts into 4 ohms. Best regards, -- Al |
rinpoche, My current amp is the JR 625 S2. I always like to preface my comments with, no absolutes in audio and one man's medicine is another's poison. To my ears the 625 S2 is simply outstanding. The midrange is produced with a realism that is hard to describe, it's truly a chameleon that's capable of reproducing whatever is on the recording...e.g if the soundstage is wide or if there is no bass in a recording that is what you will hear. The only thing that I would want more of is power because of my room's dimensions and the size of my speakers. If I had the money I would move up the JR line. |
I missed the JR when the VAC was on, and the VAC when the JR was on. Perhaps when I go to hear the IQ both of these differences will be captured. Given the Sabrina’s impedance curve that I linked to earlier, as well as the listening experiences with the Sabrina that have been described by some of the others, I suspect that the 1 to 2 ohm output tap of the 200iq stands a significantly better chance of accomplishing that than the 2 to 4 ohm tap, and certainly than the 4 to 8 ohm tap. I presume, btw, that what you listened to today was the Sigma integrated (which does not have a 1 to 2 ohm tap), and that its 4 ohm tap was what was used. Continued best of luck, and best regards, -- Al |
rinpoche ,friendly reminder, be sure you are using the appropriate speaker tap (ohms) with your speakers. Charles, |
Yes your summary is fine and there are no problems with your descriptive writing skills, I understand you clearly . Tube preamp with the Rowland could certainly be a very good option. One thing to keep in mind, you can modify the sound of a tube power amplifier via trying different brands of tubes (both the output and the input /driver tubes). This is what many refer to as "tube rolling". You can tailor the sound of a tube amplifier.
One thing I can tell, you know what you're hearing and that's an excellent trait to have. I have all the confidence that you'll choose wisely, you know what you like. Charles, |
Well, in many ways the audition was great BUT both amps have their plusses and minuses. For example, the JR is deep and rich. It has a control quality that seems to excel in the midrange which, in my opinion, is gorgeous. Remember, I don't know the technical terms for these things but it is what I heard. I would say it is a mature amp. One that you could live with for a long time. Was it analytical? Maybe. And this is where the VAC Sigma comes in. Not as much punch (weight?), clarity or sound distinction, but an overall presence that is engaging. For acoustic vocals the JR wins hands down in my view. For chorus pieces maybe the VAC. For quartets, opera and classical they seem even in some ways. I missed the JR when the VAC was on, and the VAC when the JR was on. Perhaps when I go to hear the IQ both of these differences will be captured. Or, as some of you have suggested, a tube pre-amp down the road with the JR. Does that sum it up? |
Well rinpoche curious and very interested folks here want to know what you heard. I hope it was a fun and insightful audition today 😊 Charles, |
Charles, that was exactly the point I was trying to make about the ARC tube integrated; it makes sense that other tube product should also be able to synergize with the Sabrina's as well. And Knghifi, just as a data point, the presentation with the ARC GSi75 did not display bloated bass. Maybe setup in the room needed tweaking? When I heard the Sabrina's with D'Agostino Momentum Amp and Preamp, that was very sweet too. I could have been very happy with that setup, but it is well outside my budget. Again, still fun to dream. I hope that while I'm at THE Show in Newport in a couple weeks that I can hear the Sabrina's with some other amps/preamps that also synergize. Rinpoche, great to hear the dealer will bring over equipment for you to audition; at this price range that is expected really. I hope that includes the DAC or DAC(s) that you plan to drive the amps with too. Then you'll know exactly what you will have when the check is written or the credit card is read! Hope you are having fun. And take Charles' advice, if the D'Agostino gear is not in your comfort zone that's OK, there'll be something that is and you'll be very happy as well. |
Sounds like fun and done the right way. Sure to be a winner in the end. 🏆 |
If the D'Agostino amplifier exceeds your budget I wouldn't even think about it. This is where High End audio gets people frustrated and in trouble with spending. You'll find a terrific amplifier within your price range to match your Sabrinas, very possibly today 😊 Charles, |
It is possible for me to audition the Momentum with the Wilson's. The Wilson dealer also sells D'Agostino. But the price is crazy for me! I am barely scraping to afford the VAC and the JR is even a bit more. I have no doubt it is stunning in many ways!! Thank you for you suggestion. I will also seriously consider the JR. It is also beautiful in its weight and clarity. I started the thread because it is a hard decision and both amps have their benefits. Will let you know. |
Knghifi, thanks for that input. Do you happen to know which output tap they were using on the 200iq?
Regards, -- Al
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Knghifi, See her post above, she's doing a home audition with both the Rowland and the VAC driving her Sabrinas. Charles, |
I spent the afternoon at Fidelis looking into analog and they are dealers for Wilson and recently VAC. They have Wilson Sabrina, VAC 200iq and VAC Sigma 160i SE in stock. 200iq and Sigma 160i SE in different rooms so I just demo 200iq with Sabrina. Preamp was VAC SigMKIIa SE (my current preamp) and not familiar with the DAC ... something expensive. Overall I found the sound very good but boomy bass. It seems the amp cannot control the bass, impedance curve or needing setup fine tuning. We switched 200iq with D’Agostino Momentum Stereo Amplifier and WOW! No more boomy bass, actually less bright, more transparent, doesn't sound like tube or SS but just music. I know I know not a fair comparison, $14K vs $35K. This is the 1st time I heard VAC SigMKIIa SE with Momentum and it's an EXCELLENT match. Now getting dangerous thoughts in my head ... Hmm! So if you are buying from a dealer, insist on home demo before writing a check. If you are set on Sabrina, Rowland might be a better option so don't rule them out. Dealer can help with Sabrina setup. Another option is go with tube pre and SS amp. |