One other point, AL is spot on regarding amplifier gain/sensitivity, DAC voltage output and the gain level of a preamplifier (if being considered ). If these parameters aren't adjustable via the components you can have too much system gain. This will greatly limit volume control range to 7 -9 o'clock region which is far too restrictive. Finding the right volume level will be difficult to do.
Charles, |
Hello rinpoche,
This thread has generated very thoughtful and well reasoned dialog. Superb insight from Al as is par for the course. Ì agree wholeheartedly with Jond in that a home audition of the two amplifiers should be provided. This is an important decision and not an inexpensive one at that.
What is more important to you, the power,convenience and flexibility of the Rowland (use with television etc. ) or the "tube magic " rendered via the VAC? Is ultimate sound quality and listening enjoyment the goal? If so it seems as though the tube magic has grabbed your ears and touched your musical soul.
Good luck,
Charles, |
Rinpoche,
Just as I suspected the VAC tube magic has smitten you ☺☺. Biasing tubes is no big deal and VAC's are very reliable and steady in operation. Yes you'll have to replace tubes as they age (goes with the territory ). Pick the amplifier that in terms of musical fulfillment will make you feel the happiest over the long haul while listening to your music. You've used the term tube magic several times, I understand what you mean ☺
Charles, |
rinpoche,
Your say you aren't an audiophile but you love listening to music, I'd strongly advise you to keep that perspective and mindset. Just approach choosing audio gear as a means to enjoying music. This keeps it simple and honest. Choose the products that move you the most emotionally. Don't worry at all about product bashing, it is just personal opinion and nothing else. Trust your ears and taste, there are no audio products that generate 100% consensus ever!
Tube preamp with SS amplifier is a popular choice and can be terrific but it isn't the same as a tube power amplifier. I'm not saying one is inherently better than the other, just that they aren't the same listening experience. As you listen to more components and speakers you'll find out what you are drawn to. I believe that you'll be fine.
Charles,
|
Hi rinpoche,
It seems like the Rowland amplifier really impressed you but nonetheless you appear to be more captivated by the VAC. Of course the more often you use the VAC the sooner you'll have to replace the tubes. Good news is that the amplifier doesn't require a multitude of tubes and the KT 88 output tubes are modestly priced (compared to my amplifier's 300b tubes). The VAC is "very" rugged,well built and reliable. A good friend of mine had the VAC Phi 300.1 and had no problems with it at all during his 5 years of ownership. As has been acknowledged, you need to hear both amplifiers in your system.
Charles, |
A lot will depend on how much money one wants to spend. A used VAC Phi 200 is a wonderful amplifier and much less costly than the newer VAC IQ amplifiers. It would be ideal to compare the Phi with the newer IQ amplifiers. The Phi could be as good sounding or verify close,who knows without listening? Given the cost of these amplifiers traveling to actually hear them would be helpful.
Charles, |
Exactly, how much to spend? Listening is inherently subjective, jaw dropping experience for one is modest or subtle difference for another.
Charles,
|
Rinpoche,
I look forward to your amplifier listening impressions. It's clear to me that you have good ears and can choose what type of sound presentation you prefer. I am very glad you have this opportunity to hear these amplifier candidates. It should be much fun as well as informative.
Charles, |
Pokey77,
The fact that you felt that the ARC 75 watt integrated amplifier mated so well with the Wilson Sabrina is encouraging for very possible success with the VAC. I'll say it again that for the cost of the considered amplifiers an in home audition should be available. This is not a trivial purchase. Rinpoche we're pulling for you.
Charles, |
Well I'm glad that the store owner is behaving reasonably, the audition of the amplifiers with your speakers is ideal. Now all you have to do is listen and trust your ears.
Charles,
|
If the D'Agostino amplifier exceeds your budget I wouldn't even think about it. This is where High End audio gets people frustrated and in trouble with spending. You'll find a terrific amplifier within your price range to match your Sabrinas, very possibly today 😊
Charles, |
Knghifi,
See her post above, she's doing a home audition with both the Rowland and the VAC driving her Sabrinas.
Charles, |
Yes your summary is fine and there are no problems with your descriptive writing skills, I understand you clearly . Tube preamp with the Rowland could certainly be a very good option. One thing to keep in mind, you can modify the sound of a tube power amplifier via trying different brands of tubes (both the output and the input /driver tubes). This is what many refer to as "tube rolling". You can tailor the sound of a tube amplifier.
One thing I can tell, you know what you're hearing and that's an excellent trait to have. I have all the confidence that you'll choose wisely, you know what you like.
Charles, |
rinpoche ,friendly reminder, be sure you are using the appropriate speaker tap (ohms) with your speakers.
Charles, |
Well rinpoche curious and very interested folks here want to know what you heard. I hope it was a fun and insightful audition today 😊
Charles, |
Knghifi,
I agree with you in that there are numerous very good choices available. I'm curious to read how the VAC iq matches with the Sabrinas. Many roads led to Rome.
Charles, |
Inna,
It's strictly subjective as to what combination of components someone would prefer to drive these or any speakers. For instance I had a friend's Lamm push-pull tube amplifier in my system and I didn't care for it, my friend agreed. That's just us, another listener could have the opposite impression or be somewhere in the middle.
Best case scenario is that you must actually do some listening with audio components to come to a definitive conclusion. Rinpoche is taking the right approach. 2nd factor is confidence in yourself and trusting what you hear.
Charles, |
Rinpoche,
The "taps" are what you connect the speaker cables to on the rear of the amplifier. They are clearly labeled as 2 ohms,4 ohms, 8 ohms etc. The taps are in plain view. You'll have to listen to the different amplifier tap settings and just choose the one that sounds best to you. I'm glad you are enjoying this experience.
Charles, |
Based on what Al has written it seems that the ARC tube amplifiers may utilize a larger degree of negative feedback (NFB) than the VAC amplifiers. I say this due to the lower output impedance (higher damping factor ) of the ARCs. Depending on the particular speakers this can be advantageous. It truly is dependent on the speaker design and intent of the builder. The Sabrinas could require amplifiers with more NFB with the resultant lower output impedance. Again, nothing substitutes for actual listening experiences.
Charles, |
Mapman,
I don’t believe that ARC gets the use of NFB anymore (or less ) right than does VAC. I say this because it strictly depends on the speaker in question. For example Al’s speaker sounds better with his amplifier’s zero NFB setting . In fact the scenario is true in my case as well. My particular speakers sound their very best with my zero NFB amplifier compared to those with NFB.
So again depending on the speaker characteristics either the ARC or the VAC could be the "ideal" choice. ARC’s 14 db of NFB may or may not be the preferred amount. Amplifiers which offer selectable NFB levels are a very good approach as it provides flexibility. Perhaps the Sabrinas are more compatible with amplifiers that rely on increased NFB.
Charles, |
Hi Rinpoche,
You are correct in that as good as home auditions are your time with the amplifiers is understandably limited. However it’s still a very worthwhile and valuable exercise. You reference using your ears and heart, absolutely the right approach. Choose what musically touches you the most deeply and you’ll be fine. That's what music lovers do and you're a self confessed music lover.
Charles, |
Mapman,
Yes I see your point, expanding the potential field of speakers that could be used successfully.
Zero NFB amplifiers would require more specific /careful speaker matching. But oh so good when that match is right 😊.
Charles, |
Rinpoche,
I must agree with ricred1. It's all up you once you've listened to a component. You'll get opinions that run the spectrum, unavoidable due to the subjective nature of it all. The new PS Audio BHK has received excellent reviews Thus far. You're correct, there are many really fine products available. As has been said here before trust your ears and pick what moves you the most emotionally.
Charles, |
Inna,
The inescapable aspect about this hobby is it inevitably boils down to subjectivity. You make the valid point of expending the field of other competing speakers and components and the benefits of this exposure. I don’t know the extent of Rinpoche's awareness of other speakers however it’s quite clear she loves what she’s heard from the Wilson Sabrinas. She could hear a dozen different speaker brands and still prefer the Sabrinas or as you suggest, find ànother that impresses more.
No one can audition every possible choice available so in reality there’s a limit to the level of exposure one can achieve. Wilson as is Magico are the epitome of polarizing High End brands and they generate very passionate defenders and critics. Rinpoche has heard the Wilson and really likes their sound, that’s important and significant. Identifying the sound you prefer is the key step towards assembling an audio system that will keep you happy and content for the long term.
Charles, |
Rinpoche,
You are on the right pathway, you do not need to change or in any way alter your approach. You motive is clear and direct, you simply want your music to sound enjoyable in your home. This is the best reason one could offer in my opinion. I personally don't see the need to become bogged down and obsessed with audiophile concerns to the point where one can become neurotic. It's possible to take what should be "fun" and replace it with angst and frustration. Keep doing what you are doing, enhancing the joy of listening to music. You love the Wilson sound, who cares what someone else may think about them.
Charles, |
Rinpoche,
I'd play recordings that you both enjoy and are pretty familiar with. You're use to how they sound in your system and thus will easily detect any differences in presentation provided by a new component. This approach has been very effective for me through the years. We all here are interested to read your listening experiences with the select group of amplifiers. This is an enjoyable thread.
Charles, |
Facten,
Excellent advice !
Charleso, |
+1 Jond, wise comments as usual.
Charles, |
Rinpoche,
Please if possible listen to the Nordost cable with your system . These are expensive and you may not even like them once heard ( or you may love them, who knows). This brand of cables does little for me but of course that's merely my impression, others find them terrific.
Charles, |
Tube preamp with SS amplifier is a very popular choice for many audiophiles so I don’t agree with Inna’s "purist audiophile " definition.
Rinpoche congratulations on your decision, I suspected that the convenience aspect of the JR (transistors ) would be an important feature. You certainly are impressed with the sound quality and it’s a fine match given your speaker’s load characteristics. I wish you many years of listening enjoymentwith this well chosen pairing.
Charles, |
Riced1,
You hardly came off as arrogant (quite the contrary ). Anyone know of a perfect audio product? If so please share with the rest of us.
Charles, |
Hi Ricred1,
In some systems to certain listeners the Gryphon will be preferred to the Rowland. Change the listeners and or the system and suddenly the Rowland is deemed the superior amplifier. In the realm of upper tier transistor power amplifiers both stand tall. If I've learned one thing about audio system assembly it is that synergy is a real and major factor.
Charles, |
Facten,
That's such a nice offfer. There are good people on this site.
Charles, |
I was under the impression that the dealer's demonstration unit was purchased by Rinpoche.
Charles, |
Porsche or Odin system loom? This would actually be an intriguing proposition "only" if the Odin caused a stunningly transformative improvement in your system’s sound quality. Al, I’m mean genuinely astonishing / sublime effect of which you’ve never experienced. Quite the the hypothetical situation. ☺☺
Charles, |
Al,
That was pretty emphatic. So much for hypothetical musical utopias LOL.
Charles, |
In this situation I'd sell the Devialet and use the money efficiently as possible i.e, bang for the buck approach. I agree wholeheartedly that there'd be enough money on-hand for both a very high quality preamplifier and sufficiently high quality 1 pair of interconnects.
Al, ,back to the hypothetical . It the Odin loom were found to be truly '" mind blowimg" transformative in your system would you be tempted to part ways with the Porsche? Think about it, a lover of classical music with "mind blowing " music reproduction in your home 😊😊
Charles, |
Hi Rinpoche,
I think it'd be fun and educational if you got 1 pair of the inexpensive Mogambi Gold Studio XLR cable for comparison to the esteemed AQ cable you're buying. I'm curious to read how much of a difference you'd hear between them. It's easy to make these suggestions with someone else's money. 😊 For record I feel you've assembled an excellent audio system.
Charles. |
Rinpoche,
Absolutely logical explanation and response. It isn’t "always" necessary to take baby steps. Your Wilson and Rowland system have you perched at a pretty high level in the realm of High End Audio . Finding a highly regarded cable (that’s needed to complete your system connection ) for a very attractive price makes nothing but good sense. The Mogambi suggestion was made in part to satisfy my selfish curiosity. You have good ears and I would have been interested in your listening comparison.
Charles, |
Hi Ricred1,
This is one of the classic timeless High End audio debates, active preamplifier versus direct source to power amplifier. I consistently find I prefer the inclusion of the active preamplifier, personal taste and nothing more. I do believe that Rinpoche is hearing excellent sound with her current direct set up, it’d be quite interesting to see her impressions if given the opportunity to insert the Corus or other high quality preamplifier into her fine system. You never know until you’ve experienced both approaches.
Charles, |
Richard,
I hear you and we're on the same page,
Rinpoche,
The vast majority of audiogon forum contributors are nice folks who try to help others as much as possible. There are the few negative sarcastic and "know it all" types who reside here. Fortunately they are truly a small faction.
Charles, |
