Does Jeff Rowland now use standard XLR pin configuration? I think, I read that in the past that was not the case. Unless I read wrong.
Someone here uses Wireworld cables with Rowlands. There is inexpensive Eclipse balanced cable for sale. This should give the impression of the brand. If you don't like it - throw it away if you don't want to deal with selling. In high end audio one should prepare for some losses, they happen. |
Hi everyone.
Never heard Wilsons though heard a lot of them.
Would LAMM pre/power plus some DAC beat both Rowland and VAC overall? LAMM hybrid power, I mean. What if it could? |
Call me names if you wish, but I suggest you get rid of Wilsons and start listening to various speakers/amp combinations. In a few months you might end up with something truly great.
Your wallet appears to be pretty good if not exactly perfect..
In your place I would probably start with Kharma/LAMM/Purist Audio and then move from there.
Of course, both Rowland and VAC would give you excellent sound with your speakers, but that's not my point. If you want great sound - you must make a great effort to achieve it. So far you are not making it. Sorry, man. |
Hi.
I suggested Kharma/LAMM/Purist Audio because this combination could be your reference point even if you cannot afford it new but maybe you can used. Besides, you appear to fluctuate between solid state and tube electronics of similar level, and I can understand that. I suggested the path that I myself would take. I like both Rowland and VAC. Few amps play midrange as well as top of the line VAC yet some choose LAMM. And better Rowlands are up there in the top solid state league. Personally, if I wanted to keep Wilsons I would probably choose Rowland over VAC for better dynamics bass and scale. In any case, whatever you decide - you are to have an excellent sound. |
First thing I play when testing a system is album entitled 'Cielo e Terra' by Al Di Meola. It is atmospheric mesmerising acoustic guitar music.
Next I play vocal by Dead Can Dance. Then Bitches Brew by Miles Davis, then Inner Mounting Flame by Mahavishnu Orchestra, then the rest if I need to, usually not because by that point things are almost always clear to me. But if you listen to opera and big orchestra, it may make sense to start with that. Just don't expect too much - no system can adequately reproduce the power scale and instrument separation of a full orchestra. They can't record it adequately either, by the way. |
I mentioned Purist Audio cables. They have a cult following, not that it is the only great brand. Cables can really make or break the system because signal transmission is just or almost just as important as signal processing. If you decide to buy them new, I suggest you contact albertporter here on audiogon. He is a very experienced audiophile with incredible system, he will help you choose the right cables, he sells them too. I talked to him in the past. Purist cables need at least 200 hours of burn-in time to sound best, I can confirm it.
I think, VAC has good Chinese tubes in it, but of course one can do better with New Old Stock tubes. Most people here replace those factory installed tubes, I guess. I would for sure.
Most agree that at their best tubes sound better than transistors but this level of performance costs a fortune. At more modest levels there is no clear answer, it depends on many things including personal preferences. You could even try " poor man's LAMM " Rogue Audio Pharaoh hybrid integrated. It's $3500 new, many like it a lot. Both VAC and Rowland integrateds are what, about $11000 each new? |
Rinpoche, I have an unusual suggestion. I suspect that you have a good hearing. Go to www.mundo-flamenco.com ; it is a place that sells good acoustic guitars. Click on the 'guitars' and listen to the guitars that are not for sale. It's MP3 but you can hear the difference quite clearly. If you like more the guitar by Antonio Marin Montero - you probably want VAC amp, if the one by Conde - probably Rowland. They are both great guitars. |
Yes, Mogami cables. One of the reasons why the recordings are of poor quality. They are okay at best nothing more. You don't want this stuff for Rowland and VAC. DiMarzio is better, I still keep the RCA pair, but I don't think he makes them any longer. For serious comparison I would try Purist, High Fidelity, Stealth, Jorma, Tara, Wireworld. They might all give an excellent but somewhat different sound. Then it will be a matter of taste. |
Great Paco de Lucia flamenco guitarist played custom Conde guitars, and I can see why. The Conde is fast precise and balanced with brilliant high frequences. The Montero is warmer deeper and more sophisticated. I would take the Montero any day.
My final piece of advice could be this - do not listen to LAMM or close to top of the line VAC unless you consider them for the future. If you do you may not want anything less. I think, used pre/power amps from LAMM would cost at least $20K, and this would not be his best. Perhaps much older models could be found for $10k - $12K for both. |
Rinpoche,
Gonzalez, as they say, worked for 20 years in Montero shop, and I can hear that. Besides, his guitar has rosewood back and sides not cypress. Excellent sound indeed. |
Let's just remember that this is MP3 sound, so the caution is required. I had heard Paco de Lucia live play that custom Conde that I mentioned. It was absolutely incredible instrument. I never heard Montero guitar.
Rinpoche, I think, has an excellent hearing, and this presents a problem of a sort. She wants a combination of VAC and Rowland sound. Gonzalez guitar represents a kind of successful fusion of the two with a tilt, to my ear, to Montero. So...this is tough. We are also talking only about digital source, as I understand, no turntable or reel to reel deck. Plus the ability to play movies well. Double tough.
I do have an impression that Rinpoche really likes the way Rowland controls the speakers even if it doesn't quite have the VAC's 'seductive magic'. Only she herself can choose, we did our best to help. |
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To start - I am not one of them. I choose whatever combination I like. Purist would do either full tube or full solid state, more often full tube. |
I was quite certain you would choose Rowland. Fine tuning with tube preamp is next possible step. In any event, tube preamp/transistor power amp set-up is favoured by many. Especially with digital source. Purist audiophiles would never do this, though, but to hell with them. |
I don't know if you have considered this, but your new Rowland amp will need a good power cord, not that it will sound bad with the stock one. You don't have to match the power cord to your other cables, only to the component you are going to use it with. But let the new amp break-in for at least a few hundred hours before comparing power cords, if that's what you will want to do. Your Rowland DAC wouldn't mind good cord either, by the way. If you ask for a advice here you will get recommendations for one hundred brands.
Also, if you buy cds, in my experience Japanese cds always sound better, always. JVC XRCDs are quite consistent. Some American cds by audiophile companies like Chesky, Acoustic Sounds, Water Lilli and others can be excellent too. You might also want to use cd treatment, Walker Audio is popular but there are others. I don't listen to digital much so I use inexpensive Optrix treatment. All my treated CDs including Japanese sound better than untreated. At the very least rinse them with lukewarm water and wipe off with soft cloth not paper towel which is abrasive.
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Purists would not mix Chanel with Dior, even though both are French. Chanel is best with Chanel and Dior with Dior. I've seen excellent combinations but they were not the best.
But tube preamp as a buffer when using digital source is not a bad idea if carefully selected.
I guess, in my heart I am a purist after all.
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Guido, it is impolite to say to a woman that she is not going to have as good an amp as you do. |
And..I didn't want to say it before but I will say it now. Having an excellent hearing and artistic taste, she is bothered by digital without fully realizing it more than by tubes/transistors incompleteness. Digital does not have analog's naturalness and continuity, it can at times approximate. No amp in the world can compensate for it but good amp can make the digital sound as best as it can, and that's the theoretical objective in this case. |
There are many brands that could be worth auditioning, including Ayre.
She chose to audition these two with occasionaly couple of others in the mix. The big question here is tubes or not. The possible question Rowland or Ayre is not very significant by comparison.
People approach things differently. With the same speakers I would compare used LAMM tube preamp/ hybrid amps and VAC, I would not consider either Rowland or Ayre except maybe older Rowland 8Ti and 9Ti with Coherence preamp.
I suggested LAMM, she doesn't want to go this direction and I understand well why. I think, she is doing all the right things within her set of parameters. She is a music lover not an audiophile and doesn't want to spend all weekends for a year to choose something that she already might've auditioned. |
Chanel is classicism par excellance. Dior is 'new look' created in 50s. Both can be great, also depends on the occasion. But if choosing just one, yeah, Chanel wins. |
Rinpoche, of course that's okay. Your original Rowland/VAC choice was an excellent move.
Who can afford Dior? Well, Dior jeans are about $550 and up, Diesel are about $200 or more. Is the difference big? It depends, but generally speaking not too big. Chanel is a different story - really expensive.
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Oppo 105D Blu ray player should be quite good. It is about $1300. Or better Marantz perhaps. |
Hello Rinpoche.
It would be helpful if you could tell how much you were prepared to spend on the amp, in $US. But if you asked me, I would not settle for anything less than VAC, Rowland or LAMM. Others here, and Wilson Audio themselves, also suggested ARC and VTL. I cannot comment on this because I have no idea. |
There is still a pair of LAMM M2.2 monoblocks available here for $12800 or best offer. If you consider LAMM, ask the seller for serial numbers and then call or write Vladimir Shushirin, LAMM designer and owner, and ask him about these particular amp's service and repair history. He matches tubes to each amp ! He is a serious person and audiophile. You can ask him about Wilson/LAMM match too.
The biggest mistake in choosing the equipment is spending less than needed. The second biggest mistake is spending more than needed.
If you eventually go with LAMM and later want to add a preamp, this preamp will almost certainly be all tube LAMM, could usually be found for $6000 or so.
If you also consider older Rowlands, I suggest you start a separate thread specifically about them. Some people heard them all with different speakers, and not all Rowlands were great. |
I listened to Sarah's music on youtube. She is articulated and controlled, in addtion to being dreamy. This is a wild guess, but I think that in the long run, at least at this level not perhaps the best possible level, you will enjoy Rowland or LAMM more than VAC. Which one would be better? You could ask Vladimir this too. You could ask him why he might think that his amps would be better with your Wilsons for your taste and the kind of music you listen to. As far as I know, unless it changed, he doesn't make dacs or integrated amps. This tells us that he is a die hard analog man and strives for the highest performance. |
There is used Rowland Continuum S2 on Audiogon for about $6000. He might ship to Canada. Question is if this is good enough. |
Not really the same direction, I prefer Loreena McKennitt. She is a Canadian, by the way. The concert in Alhambra, Spain is excellent. |
It could, it can and it is. |
Wrong. Better ask the dealer to throw in some great cables and power cord. This is high end audio shopping not oriental bazaar. |
I would say we maintained a relative neutrality, most certainly when it came to the wallet. I did hint slightly that LAMM could be the best choice from purely audiophile perspective. But there are other factors here at play, namely aesthetics, convinience, size, familiarity, reliability. And I only did it because I think I got a pretty good idea of what Rinpoche wants to accomplish.
I believe, we've been good and I find your statements totally incorrect and irrelevant when it comes to this thread.
By the way, what makes you think that nothing is perfect? This implies that you know everything. What a wonderful arrogance. |
There are currently no dealers or distributors in either Canada or the US, but I just have to mention one brand that is considered by some to be the very best or at least among a few very best transistor designs. It is Gryphon Audio based in Denmark. I never auditioned them only read about them. I suppose, you could get them from a European dealer and have Gryphon convert the voltage. There are not many Gryphons in the US and almost no-one ever sells them. |
This is for the future, just to be aware of something that might go beyond Rowland. Gryphon also makes integrateds for a 'reasonable' price, so music for another room perhaps. |
I have couple of friends whose hearing is excellent, they are not audiophiles. Our preferences are sometimes different but we hear exactly the same things. When something is really good and you can hear it, there is no question about it.
System match is of course very important, and the higher you go the more important. However, I would guess that all of these amps would match well with Wilsons. Could be interesting to compare. |
Swiss have their own ways of doing things and they would expect you to follow them precisely. They also charge you for the honour of owning their equipment. Double the normal price, I mean. Not for me, thank you. As an exotic very expensive choice I would consider Ypsilon Electronics from Greece. $25k for hybrid integrated.
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We know hundreds of them.
Rinpoche, while listening to your system with the Rowland try to dislike it as much as you can. And if you fail then you will have little choice but to get the Rowland. It's a lot of money for one piece of equipment.
Mapman, try Santoni, it's good stuff. |
And slowly move the volume control up and down, the speakers should maintain the coherence, the sound should not break up. Since you listen to digital, the high frequency distortion may somewhat bother you, especially on fast dynamic solos. |
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That's good, you settled it.
Don't be so sure - you may not like our faces.
Hear from you next year, about the preamp, if you feel you need it.
There is an old Gryphon preamp here right now. I wonder, how would it work with your Rowland? No, it's not a suggestion and frankly I have no idea how and if it would work.
Have any of you people ever tried this or similar combination? |
If you like Wilson sound it might make more sense to first upgrade to Sophia or Sasha before dealing with preamp thing. |
Can't be sure but I suspect that your power amp now outclasses your speakers. This is a good thing but not the best thing. |
I wonder how this would sound through the Wilsons. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p71QK5TZDCcI believe that the situation when power amp outclasses speakers is better than the other way around. It is probably not easy for any speakers to outclass Lamm and Gryphon, so those amps could be for life. For this life, I mean. Unlike listening rooms, philosophycal space is unlimited, as far as eye can see. Or as far as ear can hear. |
A few thoughts. If the system sounds good enough now, there is no need to change anything, certainly not untill the question of adding preamp or upgrading speakers is answered. At this level I would not mix brands of interconnects and speaker cables unless I wanted to experiment with hundreds of brands. The fact that Rowland is wired with Cardas and Wilson with Transparent means exactly nothing from audiophile perspective. This is a digital source transistor based system, I would think that it needed some 'tubes' in the chain, that's neutral enough but full bodied cables that would bring out colour and texture, as opposed to coloration and additional digital artifacts.
Are we talking about XLR balanced or RCA cables, by the way? If balanced, it's easier and less expensive. |
Rinpoche, if you consider Purist I strongly suggest you talk to member albertporter and also perhaps to Jim Aud, Purist designer. Albert has a wealth of knoweldge of high end audio. He is currently also Purist Audio and High Fidelity cables dealer. This should not affect his objectivity much. He might be able to send you some demo cables to try and would give you a very good price on new cables.
There is a reason why there are many Purist models. You would be unable to figure out by yourself which one would be best for you unless you try them all. If Albert cannot answer your questions he will contact those who can. |
Come on, guys, I suspect some of you have a bunch of spare cables in the closet. Why don't you send them to the lady for audition? I don't have balanced cables.
If you add tube pre-amp later, the interconnects you get now may not work well, besides you will need another set.
Furutech was not a bad idea but may not be good enough for you, perhaps worth a try, I don't know.
Personally, I don't touch Cardas, Nordost and Audioquest. Their very expensive models could be good in some systems, though.
If the cable manufacturer is serious, even the least expensive cable should be okay in any system. Wire is not just a wire, but first of all it is a wire. |
Yeah, why not try Mogami too, it costs nothing? However, pro-audio and audiophile audio are not the same things. One of the differences is that they would try to save every cent to increase the profit, we would not. I tried DiMarzio cables, something very popular with musicians as guitar amp cable. Yngwie Malmsteen comes to mind. Good cable, no match for Purist. I did try RCA though. |
Exactly. That's what you want to add to the sound of your system.
I will make last statement regarding cables. Take it with some scepticism.
We, Purist Audio fans, are not idiots and generally have good hearing. Whatever else in our systems we change, one thing almost always remains the same - we keep using Purist Audio cables, though sometimes change the model. Tube equipment, solid state equipment, hybrid equipment - no difference. Digital source, analog source - no difference. |
I have not heard the newest Purist cables, only older ones. If you pushed me to take my somewhat educated wild guess, I would say that without spending too much the current Aqueous Luminist edition for a little over $1000 should be about right. If this is too expensive - probably Poseidon. Nothing lower than that, that's for sure. |
Yeah, excellent move. Rushing to spend $1000 or more for a cable that might not be the best choice would make little sense. I would be happy to hear that Mogami balanced works great, but more likely something more expensive will be required. The biggest difference between DiMarzio and Purist was in the midrange, though both the bass and tremble were better too. Still, that DiMarzio was very clear balanced and dynamic. And the difference was bigger with digital. If Mogami is similar to DiMarzio it should also be something like that, that's good but not good enough. |
You don't need $6000 cable. I suggest you refuse. |
We are headed in the wrong direction, I think. Whatever we say Rinpoche appears to return to one brand - Audioquest. Who can say why? Anyway, $6000 buys great used tube preamp, be it VAC or Lamm or something else. Or new Herron, as an example. No cable in any system is worth that much money until the system is complete. This one is not. Of course, if someone just must do it it's not really our business, but I certainly wouldn't be able to applaud it.
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