Jeff Rowlands Amp and Dac vs. VAC amp and DAC

Okay, I listened to both guitarists. And, here is the thing, I liked them both! Yes, at first I was drawn to Conde, but on second hearing I felt equally involved in Montero. In a way, an ideal test would be if they played the same piece. I see the differences you are getting at. Softer and warm on one hand, or crisper yet musical on the other hand. Very interesting test. Thank you. 

As for the interconnect cables, it just looked like a good deal. I am sure my dealer will also have suggestions. If I could find something good that is used I would save some a bit of money. I will use balanced XLR for sure. I don't think I need more than 1 meter.

I have a colleague who swears by a cable made locally that costs $45.00. He has tried many cables and goes back to this one regularly. He said it might be a great place to start? 

rinpoche not sure what your system configuration is now or how you were listening to music before or if your going to need balanced or single ended cables. All that being said given the fact that you have Crystal speaker cables this looked interesting:
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/interconnects-crystal-micro-silver-60-interconnect-2016-05-29-cabl...
Same brand so hopefully some synergy there, affordable at $275 used and the seller is in Canada. I don't know the seller but plenty of positive feedback and buying affordable used cable is typically an easy and very low risk proposition.

Thank you jond for looking and sending that listing. My cables are Standard Diamond series which is a bit higher up than the Micro (and thus more costly). If you think that there is synergy in having the same interconnect as speaker cable, I could look around and see what is out there. But, if I am going to change speaker cable down the road, do you think it might be better to start with a different interconnect and work from there? Since with the interconnects I am starting from scratch? Maybe there is a CC Diamond interconnect for sale. It is a bright and lively cable. I did hear it against Nordost, which sounded heavier and darker, if that makes any sense. But I have not heard any other cables. In my 'old' system I had AudioQuest cables (that looked a lot like garden hoses). 

What do you think?

If you think that there is synergy in having the same interconnect as speaker cable, I could look around and see what is out there.

Opinions are divided on that question, which involves what is often referred to as "loom theory."  For example, see the following threads:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/what-about-loom-theory

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/power-cord-brands-mixing-quot-your-opinions-quot

(The second thread initially focused just on power cords, but eventually broadened in scope to address all cables).

As you'll see, I happen to be one of those who do not subscribe to that theory, for the reasons I stated in the threads.

Best,
-- Al

rinpoche

There is nothing that necessarily requires your changing your speaker cables down the road aside from if you don't like the sound with your new equipment. If I interpreted an earlier post correctly it seems like you auditioned the equipment under consideration at American Sounds; if so then you either also auditioned, Kimber , Audioquest ,Transparent, or Ansuz , those are the cables the website indciates it carries. Would suggest again that you consider asking the dealer what he had hooked up with the equipment you listened to. 

Well, used listings for interconnects are a bit daunting, but if you help me de-mystify the field I might be able to pick up something quite decent used.

Here are my questions:
1.) should i try to find a used Crystal Cable to create a synergy with my speaker cable?
2.) should i start from scratch with the interconnect and then use that as a frame of reference if and or when I try other speaker cables farther down the road?
3.) what do you think of these current used cables:

a.  synergistic research tesla series precision reference XLR 4.5 feet $800 
b.  there is a tara labs ISM XLR interconnect for $875 but then in the very next listing a TARA LABS Zero Gold for $8000 (demo). so that is it I am seeing at 875? something very very old?
c.  Silnote Morpheus Reference II for 495

There is this whole combination of things with Synergistic Research (speaker cables, interconnect, etc.) called Galileo -- though the interconnects are RCA, can they be re-terminated XLR or is that a crazy question? And it has bananas whereas I am using spades? ETC. 

Or, any other advice would be so wonderful. Thanks everyone!!!!!!!! You are the best. 

rinpoche I was seeing that cable as an easy relatively low cost way to get you started and listen before you blew big bucks on a pair of interconnects. Also an advantage of buying cables use is the good old audition and flip, buy, listen, evaluate, and resell if the cable doesn't suit. A break even proposition and a great way to evaluate cables in your own system. Cheers!

Gotcha! R

rinpoche;

For what it is worth, I have Silnote IC & digitals in all 3 of my systems - Morpheous in my headphone system, Posiedon in my 2nd system, Posiedon & Orion in my main system. Musical to my ears in all cases, may or may not be for you but a possible consideration. Good luck with the rest of your search

Thanks! The suggestion is for an interconnect which I don't have. I will keep the Crystal Cables for now. Used is a good way to go. Maybe once I know what amp I am getting we can talk interconnects? Gotta hook the Aeris to the Amp. A short run overall. 

Great Paco de Lucia flamenco guitarist played custom Conde guitars, and I can see why. The Conde is fast precise and balanced with brilliant high frequences. The Montero is warmer deeper and more sophisticated. I would take the Montero any day.
My final piece of advice could be this - do not listen to LAMM or close to top of the line VAC unless you consider them for the future. If you do you may not want anything less. I think, used pre/power amps from LAMM would cost at least $20K, and this would not be his best. Perhaps much older models could be found for $10k - $12K for both.

Inna,
Thanks, I will take that into consideration. In Canada, the LAMM sells for $30,000++ depending on the deal. And I will not listen to top of the line VAC or I will never buy anything else. LOL

As for the guitarists, I liked both. But I really liked the piece by Gonzalez. That amp would that constitute?

Rinpoche,

I feel your pain.
About a month after your first post, no amp, no interconnects, no music, no inspiration.......

J. :(:(:(

Rinpoche,
Gonzalez, as they say, worked for 20 years in Montero shop, and I can hear that. Besides, his guitar has rosewood back and sides not cypress. Excellent sound indeed.

"If you like more the guitar by Antonio Marin Montero - you probably want VAC amp, if the one by Conde - probably Rowland." - Inna

"As for the guitarists, I liked both. But I really liked the piece by Gonzalez. T(W)hat amp would that constitute?"  - Rinpoche

"Gonzalez, as they say, worked for 20 years in Montero shop, and I can hear that. Besides, his guitar has rosewood back and sides not cypress. Excellent sound indeed." - Inna  

Inna,
If Gonzalez worked 20 years in the Montero shop, then the amp that goes with Gonzalez would be VAC? - if I understand it correctly.

J.

Let's just remember that this is MP3 sound, so the caution is required. I had heard Paco de Lucia live play that custom Conde that I mentioned. It was absolutely incredible instrument. I never heard Montero guitar.
Rinpoche, I think, has an excellent hearing, and this presents a problem of a sort. She wants a combination of VAC and Rowland sound. Gonzalez guitar represents a kind of successful fusion of the two with a tilt, to my ear, to Montero. So...this is tough. We are also talking only about digital source, as I understand, no turntable or reel to reel deck. Plus the ability to play movies well. Double tough.
I do have an impression that Rinpoche really likes the way Rowland controls the speakers even if it doesn't quite have the VAC's 'seductive magic'. Only she herself can choose, we did our best to help.

YOU HAVE DONE MORE THAN YOUR BEST. YOU HAVE 'ALL' BEEN AMAZING. I HOPE TO HEAR THE VAC 200 THIS WEEKEND. AND I WILL LET YOU KNOW HOW IT SOUNDS. I CAN'T WAIT. AS JON2020 SAID, 'A MONTH AND NO AMP, NO INTERCONNECTS, NO MUSIC AND NO INSPIRATION' LOL.

YOU ARE SUCH AN AMAZING COMMUNITY OF KNOWLEDGE AND MUSICAL INTELLIGENCE. THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR THOUGHTFUL AND KIND ASSISTANCE. I HAVE LEARNED SO SO MUCH. APPRECIATIVELY, R

This should sound like ...well, this should sound right with Wilsons.
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/solid-state-27-000-lamm-m2-2-hybrid-power-amplifier-2016-06-11-amp...
Take a lot of space though.

Hello,
I went to hear the VAC 200 iq system today. It is very beautiful. I think you would all agree it is engaging and warm and in a word gorgeous. However, I also listened to the JR with a tube preamp and I must say it was even better. So, I think the way to go is the Rowland for now and add a preamp when I can afford it down the road. The preamp with the Rowland completed the circle. It gave me a VAC sound with the ease of solid state. I think this is going to work out just fine. Your help and advice and suggestions have been fabulous. Oh, by the way, I recommend a piece for you to play. It is called Prayer Cycle and the track is called Benediction with Linda Rondstadt and Nusreh Fateh Ali Khan. The words are 'made up'. Not a real language, and it sounded so so beautiful today all three times I listened to it, but the fullest was the JR and tube preamp (ARC). So so so nice. I think I am almost at the finish line -- for now (LOL). R

I was quite certain you would choose Rowland. Fine tuning with tube preamp is next possible step. In any event, tube preamp/transistor power amp set-up is favoured by many. Especially with digital source. Purist audiophiles would never do this, though, but to hell with them.

What would a purist audiophile do?

To start - I am not one of them. I choose whatever combination I like. Purist would do either full tube or full solid state, more often full tube.

I don't know if you have considered this, but your new Rowland amp will need a good power cord, not that it will sound bad with the stock one. You don't have to match the power cord to your other cables, only to the component you are going to use it with. But let the new amp break-in for at least a few hundred hours before comparing power cords, if that's what you will want to do. Your Rowland DAC wouldn't mind good cord either, by the way. If you ask for a advice here you will get recommendations for one hundred brands.
Also, if you buy cds, in my experience Japanese cds always sound better, always. JVC XRCDs are quite consistent. Some American cds by audiophile companies like Chesky, Acoustic Sounds, Water Lilli and others can be excellent too. You might also want to use cd treatment, Walker Audio is popular but there are others. I don't listen to digital much so I use inexpensive Optrix treatment. All my treated CDs including Japanese sound better than untreated. At the very least rinse them with lukewarm water and wipe off with soft cloth not paper towel which is abrasive.

Tube preamp with SS amplifier is a very popular choice for many audiophiles so I don’t agree with Inna’s "purist  audiophile " definition.
Rinpoche congratulations on your decision, I suspected that the convenience aspect of the JR (transistors ) would be an important feature. You certainly are impressed with the sound quality and it’s a fine match given your speaker’s load characteristics. I wish you many years of listening enjoymentwith this well chosen pairing.
Charles,

Purists would not mix Chanel with Dior, even though both are French. Chanel is best with Chanel and Dior with Dior. I've seen excellent combinations but they were not the best.
But tube preamp as a buffer when using digital source is not a bad idea if carefully selected.
I guess, in my heart I am a purist after all.

One thing I realized last night is that I didn't listen to tube amp and tube preamp. I have to go back to the store anyway, and will suggest it. But, to be honest, because of the many hours that I watch film and my family uses it for TV, the ease of use was one of the things that factored into my decision. I hear the difference between the JR and VAC, but as one person asked earlier on 'are there any systems you would not be happy with'? They are both great. Who wouldn't be happy with either one!!! I feel so fortunate to be able to even be in the position to be able to say that. 

I might wear Chanel with Dior? A scarf? Perfume? Eyeglasses? But then who can afford Dior and/or Chanel. I think you are right, though, I will hear tube and tube and hear for myself how that combo is. I owe it to myself to finish the search. So, my friends, we are not at the last chapter just yet.

In terms of power cords, oh no. Actually I do have a Crystal Cable power cord I can use — maybe on the DAC? Thanks for the suggestions on CDs. I will be listening to the Corus pre-amp as well (not tube), and VAC — maybe I should start another thread!!! LOL

Again, I have an all JR system, with the 625 S2, Corus, and Aeris. In my system I did hear a "slight" difference when adding a Wireworld Platinum power cord, but a more audible difference when I added the Torus power conditioner.

Hi Rinpoche,

Congratulations on your decision, preliminary though it may be.

To be sure it's clear, is the Roland you have tentatively settled on the 625S2?

Also, just out of curiosity, which speaker make (Focal?) and specific model was it that you listened to in the recent session?  And if you know or can determine it during your next visit, which tap on the 200iq was used in connecting to that speaker?

Best,
-- Al
 

Here's a thought, maybe do as I do...
own a Rowland ss amp for when you want that ss sound..and a tube amp for when you like the sound of tubes!
The Rowland is an excellent ss amp, having said that, it has all of the typical ss attributes...less depth than what tubes will give you, less purity in the midrange and slightly less definition of timbre. OTOH, the ss amp has better control of the bass, slightly more exact positioning of the players on the stage...although as I said above, the stage is foreshortened and the bonus of being a) probably more reliable and b) giving off less heat. Plus, the ss amp can typically drive a wider range of speakers ( at least the one I own). 
There is no amp that I am aware of that gives the best of both worlds...ss and tube.

Daveyf
Have you heard the 625 S2 in your system or compared it directly to a tube amp?

Another brand that should be on your audition list is Ayre....even the older ones are fabulous.  Their customer service is top notch as well.

There are many brands that could be worth auditioning, including Ayre.
She chose to audition these two with occasionaly couple of others in the mix. The big question here is tubes or not. The possible question Rowland or Ayre is not very significant by comparison.
People approach things differently. With the same speakers I would compare used LAMM tube preamp/ hybrid amps and VAC, I would not consider either Rowland or Ayre except maybe older Rowland 8Ti and 9Ti with Coherence preamp.
I suggested LAMM, she doesn't want to go this direction and I understand well why. I think, she is doing all the right things within her set of parameters. She is a music lover not an audiophile and doesn't want to spend all weekends for a year to choose something that she already might've auditioned.

And..I didn't want to say it before but I will say it now. Having an excellent hearing and artistic taste, she is bothered by digital without fully realizing it more than by tubes/transistors incompleteness. Digital does not have analog's naturalness and continuity, it can at times approximate. No amp in the world can compensate for it but good amp can make the digital sound as best as it can, and that's the theoretical objective in this case.

Guido, it is impolite to say to a woman that she is not going to have as good an amp as you do. 

I might well be wrong but I think Guido was trying too impart that based upon his experience  rinpoche might be happy just using the Aeris DAC to drive the 625 versus inserting one of the preamps he mentioned

Guido, FWIW I interpreted your post exactly as Facten did, and in accordance with the clarification you provided just above.

Best regards,
-- Al
 

I hear you Guido, but no absolutes in audio. In my system it sounds better with the Corus...better separation, much better dynamics, honestly not even close. 

Hello to all of you. Just got all of your fabulous posts. I don't know any of you, yet I feel a kindred spirit-ness. Guido — no offence taken whatsoever. Your amps are definitely better. And, if I could afford more I would go that route without question. And, just to let you know Angie spoke so highly of you and she remembers you well. I gave her your regards and she returns your best wishes.

Next, inna — I didn't entertain the LAMM because in Canadian dollars it it still way out of my budget. Would that it were other wise I would be listening to the M1 whatever # they are and travelling to visit the Quebec dealership. Alas, admittedly, I do listen to digital and I take your observation to heart. I am sure this is the WEAK link in the whole chain. I agree totally. But, again, convenience is a high priority. It is clear that I will (probably) never go vinyl. CDs might happen. I have a fabulous CD collection but no CD player presently. If and when I have some extra cash (LOL) I might get on and will return to you to get your advice. As you have already provided excellent advice on CDs — thank you so much. 

Also, I will run the Aeris directly until I can save up for the right pre-amp. I don't want to hurry things too much just because I am impatient. The Aeris and 625 S2 (yes it is the S2) will work for now and make me very happy. When that plateaus, as we all know it will, then I will add in the pre-amp and be in listening nirvana again. 

But no tweaking. No rolling tubes. No two amps and changing wires. Just a great sound with a nice aesthetic. That is okay, isn't it?

rinpoche,  enjoy your musical experience and aesthetic with your Rowlands; I am sitting hear enjoying music with my Modwright gear

ricred1, i have not heard the 625S2 in my system, but I have heard the
625's on several occasions. The 625's are a good amp, but like I said, they sound to me like a ss amp ( nothing really wrong in that). The ss sound is ( at least to my ears) not quite the same "flavor" as the tube sound. No wrongs, no rights. 

daveyf,
I’m not concerned about if you like or dislike the 625 S2. I don’t understand why or how you make blankets statements about equipment when you admit that you haven’t compared it to a tube amplifier in your system, because you haven’t heard it in your system. I have the 625 S2 and in my system, if the recording has depth, it reproduces it. I’ve had and heard many amplifiers with music that I’m very familiar and the 625 S2 produces depth equal to or better than every amplifier I’ve listened to. No it’s not for everyone, but to suggest it doesn’t do something that it does is a disservice to OP that either purchased or is considering this amp.

ricred1..don't get your pan..... in a twist!
I own a customized ( by Jeff) model 8T...which frankly blew away the standard 625 in my system when I did an AB. My tube amp ( which I suspect you do not own--or for that matter any tube amp!) is an ARC classic. Like all great tube amps, it has a sound that no ss amp can achieve....none.  Sure, the Rowlands create depth, just not IME as much depth as the best tube amps of my experience. Unfortunately, I suspect that you have not heard what a great tube amp can do in your system...
That's not my problem.
Like I said before---no wrongs, no rights. Ok, next---

You're sadly mistaken if you think I haven't listened to tube amps. 

Rinpoche, of course that's okay. Your original Rowland/VAC choice was an excellent move.
Who can afford Dior? Well, Dior jeans are about $550 and up, Diesel are about $200 or more. Is the difference big? It depends, but generally speaking not too big. Chanel is a different story - really expensive.

And Chanel vs Dior is very subjective. I prefer Chanel!!!!

Chanel is classicism par excellance. Dior is 'new look' created in 50s. Both can be great, also depends on the occasion. But if choosing just one, yeah, Chanel wins.

Yes, both can be great. But if choosing just one, we agree — Chanel wins. 

If you see or hear of a used CD player that you think would be good for not a lot of money, let me know.