Inna,
The inescapable aspect about this hobby is it inevitably boils down to subjectivity. You make the valid point of expending the field of other competing speakers and components and the benefits of this exposure. I don’t know the extent of Rinpoche's awareness of other speakers however it’s quite clear she loves what she’s heard from the Wilson Sabrinas. She could hear a dozen different speaker brands and still prefer the Sabrinas or as you suggest, find ànother that impresses more.
No one can audition every possible choice available so in reality there’s a limit to the level of exposure one can achieve. Wilson as is Magico are the epitome of polarizing High End brands and they generate very passionate defenders and critics. Rinpoche has heard the Wilson and really likes their sound, that’s important and significant. Identifying the sound you prefer is the key step towards assembling an audio system that will keep you happy and content for the long term.
Charles, |
rinpoche, I'm with Charles, maintain the course you have set and I'm sure you will make a choice that you will find very musically satisfying with your Wilsons. In the end it is what sounds right to you. |
Hi rinpoche, if budget precludes the new M725 S2, I warmly recommend the M625 S2 over the original M725.
As for VAC vs Rowland, I personally prefer the organic sound of Rowland electronic.
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The OP loves her Wilson's, but I do believe she mentioned earlier that she had not listened to any competing loudspeakers when she acquired them. Her frame of reference is limited.
From reading these forums it's my observation that new audiophiles don't have long-term success in building truly high end systems in one shot. To Inna's point, it's too complex. I'm not sure if this also applies to music lovers and I'm most interested to find the outcome for the OP.
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Thank you all again and again for your honesty and your sage advice.
Sorry for the lengthy response, but maybe this will help. First, I don't really see myself as an audiophile or view this adventure as a hobby. Believe it or not, I just want to buy a great 'stereo' so I can really engage with the music. My goal (and maybe this is true for all of you as well) is to get it right and live with it until I need to go to take it to next level — should that time arise. I don't know how to tweak. And in a way that is why I was a bit leary of tubes but willing to learn 'for the music'.
Now, you can judge me if you like, but for 15 years I was quite happy with my Mark Levinson amps and CD transport and B&W 802's speakers in my home. Then, I sold my home and needed to scale down. I heard the Wilson's and really liked them. I thought a good amp would be the next move. But, from some of the advice I am getting here, it sounds like 'starting over' from scratch is perhaps preferable.
But I have a full time job (as I am sure most of you do too). I am in the middle of writing a book and want to listen to music to inspire me. Create a kind of transcendental experience as it were. So, while going to hear various combinations of amps and speakers is exciting and makes a lot of sense, it is also very time consuming. And where would I go? Dealers where I live seem to specialize in certain amps with certain speakers. If I want to mix and match how does one do that? Also, I already have the Wilsons (as polarizing as they might be — obviously I see that some people LOVE them, and some people don't).
Therefore, to recap, so far I have heard:
1. JR, VAC, and ARC with Focal
2. PS Audio with Audio Physic
3. Hegel integrated with Wilson Benesch
4. Luxmann with Wilson Benesch
5. Air Tight with Harbeth
I eliminated #3 and #4 very quickly. Also, ARC didn't really match JR or VAC. And #5 was very very sweet for an introductory level set up. The two that have been most engaging to my ears so far are still the JR and VAC (but I think I should hear the 200 iq with self biasing).
However, I have not yet to hear any of the amps with the Wilsons. Who knows, maybe when I do I will be disappointed and see that they are a weak link? I could try to find dealers as products are suggested? THANKS — oh, and then there will be cables!!!!! |
Rinpoche,
You are on the right pathway, you do not need to change or in any way alter your approach. You motive is clear and direct, you simply want your music to sound enjoyable in your home. This is the best reason one could offer in my opinion. I personally don't see the need to become bogged down and obsessed with audiophile concerns to the point where one can become neurotic. It's possible to take what should be "fun" and replace it with angst and frustration. Keep doing what you are doing, enhancing the joy of listening to music. You love the Wilson sound, who cares what someone else may think about them.
Charles, |
Rinpoche 6-8-2016 12:10pm EDT
But, from some of the advice I am getting here, it sounds like ’starting over’ from scratch is perhaps preferable. Not at all, IMO. And I strongly second both of the very well said posts Charles has provided today. Onhwy61 6-8-2016 12:07pm EDT
From reading these forums it’s my observation that new audiophiles don’t have long-term success in building truly high end systems in one shot. To Inna’s point, it’s too complex. I’m not sure if this also applies to music lovers and I’m most interested to find the outcome for the OP. My perception has been that in many such situations the audiophiles in question are the type that is probably incapable of ever being satisfied, and who are embarking on a never-ending merry-go-round. And in other cases are persons asking for help only after making outright mistakes in their purchase decisions, due to poor system matching or other factors. Neither of which appears to be the case here as far as I and at least most of the others are concerned. Best regards, -- Al |
Your sober advice resonates! I was started to see who carries Lamm and Kharma! Not the same dealer. Not even in the same province. Okay. Stay the course. One step at a time. I am on the right track. Trust my heart and my ears. And when possible ask, listen, and learn from others. Got it!! |
Amen - enjoy the music!!!!!!!!!!!! |
Hello,
I just contacted a LAMM dealer and the M1.2 monoblocks sell for $27,190 USD. So, given that — as much as I am sure they sound gorgeous, it is out of my budget. I appreciate the help, but I really can't afford that right now. But, as you can see, I am open to suggestions within reason. I mean, who wouldn't love a $30,000 amp!!!!! |
You are on course and have a good plan so stick to it. |
Rinpoche,
As you let on more and more about yourself in this hobby - Mark Levinson gear with B&W 802's for 15 years, and your consideration of cables, you have exposed yourself - audiophilia nervosa is already lurking inside you. You are just at the denial stage! 😅
What gave you away? - when you think about cables, you are done for. ☺
Good luck with your hunt! 😂 |
Hi.
I suggested Kharma/LAMM/Purist Audio because this combination could be your reference point even if you cannot afford it new but maybe you can used. Besides, you appear to fluctuate between solid state and tube electronics of similar level, and I can understand that. I suggested the path that I myself would take. I like both Rowland and VAC. Few amps play midrange as well as top of the line VAC yet some choose LAMM. And better Rowlands are up there in the top solid state league. Personally, if I wanted to keep Wilsons I would probably choose Rowland over VAC for better dynamics bass and scale. In any case, whatever you decide - you are to have an excellent sound. |
I am so fortunate to hear from all of you. Really. I mean that seriously. Not only are you all so knowledgeable, you are also giving and helpful....and funny (see jon2020). Okay, so maybe I am in denial. But I hear that cables are important! No?
And, inna, you are so right. I am torn. Solid state is easier and I am anticipating that tubes might be more fiddly (also I need it for TV and film). But maybe worth it! So, good idea to suggest a hybrid. In fact, that is why I went to hear the (demo) PS Audio amp. The LAMM/Kharma/Purist Audio could be my stereo goal — for my retirement (or with my retirement fund?).
I am happy though that you all seem to like JR and VAC. Really. I don't want to make a mistake at these prices. It certainly won't be top of the line VAC — they are out of reach, or JR top of the line. But the 200 IQ is affordable. And who knows the Rowland might just win out in the end — we will see. Let me first hear the VAC (an early suggestion on this thread).
I am also really getting very excited to see how this turns out. What will be the first thing I play on it? Now that is a thread we should work on. What is the first song you play on your new stereo? You folks are fabulous. I mean that. |
First song, you mean after the break-in test tones?
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What are break-in test tones?
Are you saying after the first 1500 hours if its the JR? Cuz I can't wait that long!!!!!
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What will be the first thing I play on it? Now that is a thread we
should work on. What is the first song you play on your new stereo?
If classical music is of interest, try Dvorak's "New World Symphony," Jascha Horenstein conducting the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, Chesky CD31. Out of print, but available from various sellers at Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000003GCZ/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me= And if classical music is not presently of interest, it very well may be after you hear this recording, which you will not believe was recorded in 1962! Best, -- Al |
Rinpoche,
I'd play recordings that you both enjoy and are pretty familiar with. You're use to how they sound in your system and thus will easily detect any differences in presentation provided by a new component. This approach has been very effective for me through the years. We all here are interested to read your listening experiences with the select group of amplifiers. This is an enjoyable thread.
Charles, |
First thing I play when testing a system is album entitled 'Cielo e Terra' by Al Di Meola. It is atmospheric mesmerising acoustic guitar music.
Next I play vocal by Dead Can Dance. Then Bitches Brew by Miles Davis, then Inner Mounting Flame by Mahavishnu Orchestra, then the rest if I need to, usually not because by that point things are almost always clear to me. But if you listen to opera and big orchestra, it may make sense to start with that. Just don't expect too much - no system can adequately reproduce the power scale and instrument separation of a full orchestra. They can't record it adequately either, by the way. |
I mentioned Purist Audio cables. They have a cult following, not that it is the only great brand. Cables can really make or break the system because signal transmission is just or almost just as important as signal processing. If you decide to buy them new, I suggest you contact albertporter here on audiogon. He is a very experienced audiophile with incredible system, he will help you choose the right cables, he sells them too. I talked to him in the past. Purist cables need at least 200 hours of burn-in time to sound best, I can confirm it.
I think, VAC has good Chinese tubes in it, but of course one can do better with New Old Stock tubes. Most people here replace those factory installed tubes, I guess. I would for sure.
Most agree that at their best tubes sound better than transistors but this level of performance costs a fortune. At more modest levels there is no clear answer, it depends on many things including personal preferences. You could even try " poor man's LAMM " Rogue Audio Pharaoh hybrid integrated. It's $3500 new, many like it a lot. Both VAC and Rowland integrateds are what, about $11000 each new? |
Rinpoche,
I had to smile when you mentioned seeking inspiration from music to fuel/assist your writing process for your book. I find music essential for both writing and mathematical calculations - - I just find it helps bring my mind to better focus (I'm a bit ADHD, so it is nice to have music exciting and activating some itchy brain circuit to steady me down). And I find I can do both with great simultaneous involvement, truly having some ecstatic experiences in just such times.
I am a VAC Phi 200 owner that wrote about them a bit earlier. I have heard that the iQ is a very nice step up in sound quality, so I think you are wise to wait for that audition before making a decision. I will bet that it tips the scales!
I have changed from the stock VAC Shuguang tubes for sound that I find better: Gold Lion KT88's for the power tubes and Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z tubes for the input and signal tubes. And actually I have lately mixed the original Shuguang 6SN7 tubes back into the driver station for my favorite overall affect in my system and to my tastes. My basic point is that there are better (different?) current production tubes to try, and mixing and matching can dial in the "flavor" a bit to suit. And they don't break the bank, by any means.
Keep enjoying the journey, and I am sure you will end up with a musically satisfying system. (And, yes, cables make a difference, too, but let's defer that topic for now...) |
I hear you (no pun intended, LOL). At first I will probably be a bit nervous about tubes, but I am sure I will get the hang of it, if I go that route. I wonder, what cables do you use with the Phi 200?
Also, I will listen to the musical suggestions. I am not familiar with them. I have eclectic musical tastes that include jazz, classical, rock, world music, and even ...
broadway!
One of my go to songs this time around for auditioning has been Peter, Paul and Mary's All My Trials. Just pulled it from the vaults and it is a lovely acoustic song. I have other tests as well including Bach's double violin concerto, Prokofiev violin concerto #2 Andante, Diana Krall's version of A Case of You, Maria Callas singing 'La Mamma Morta', Keith Jarrett (who by the way walked out of a concert I attended last year in Paris because too many people were coughing), and many, many more. So much great music. Now all I need is an AMP!! |
Question for Rinpoche.
If you had just heard any of the systems you have heard, and not others to compare to, are there any that you think you would not be happy with long term?
My point is these are all great sounding systems in their own way. Each with strengths and weaknesses like always. In the end all that mattters for a music lover is ability to enjoy the music to the max.
Personally, having heard a lot over the years, I think there are many systems both expensive and less so that I could live happily with if I had to. Yet no two sound exactly the same. The only way I can assert which sounds "best" overall is to compare to live music I have also heard over the years.
Just wondering. It's different things that justify any purchase to different people but in the end its ability to enjoy music that matters most to a music lover, not the gear.
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I have eclectic musical tastes that include jazz, classical, rock, world music, and even ... broadway!
One of my favorite Broadway albums, featuring many of the all-time classic songs, performed by a great operatic singer: www.amazon.com/Love-Julia-Migenes-Johnson/dp/B0001XGP28?ie=UTF8It appears to also be available on vinyl, which is what I have. Best, -- Al |
Hi Rinpoche, SS vs tubes is not the best way to look at the problem of amps... Rather, the thing to look at is the actual sound of individual amps, or at least the house sound of particular brands. Hence, you are doing well in your current path to final choice... One Rowland SS, and one VAC tubed... Yes, definitely you will find marked differences between the two amps... Yet their audible personalities have much more to do with the sonic phylosophies of the two designers, then about one amp using SS and the other one tubes.
Good idea to evaluate amps or any other component always with the same set of recordings... I have been using the same 6 audio tracks for the last 15 years... THis has helped me to create a stable frame of reference.
I use mostly the following pieces...
Antonin Dvorak -- In the Old Castle (from a 4-CD set of all Dvorak piano works on Brilliant Classics CD) with Anna Poroscina playing a a Bosendorfer grand... I look there for harmonic exposure and stability of the piano tone across the 7 octaves, naturality of attacks, persistance of decay, and extent of low level information (sounds emitted by the performer, felt noises, piano bench).
Antonin Dvorak -- introduction to string sextet with double bass. The introduction has some passages with the higher string parts bunching together in the mid treble during the cusp of cadenzas.... Many amplifiers cannot handle such closely scored sostenuto in the treble region and break apart: The sound becomes shrill, strident, and unlistenable because of intermodulative artifacts.
One more Dvorak... 2nd movement of the Symphony from the New World Op. 95 with the Israel Phil under Leonard Bernstein... My favorite performance of this work.... Look at the following:
* How does the amp handle the opening fanfare for lower brass... Can you hear the individual horns and trombones, or does the image become homogeneous and an indistinct musical pudding? Gradually the brass section shows some cuivre.... Does it remain coherent and musical... Or does it exibit signs of intermodulative strain? Are the timpani pitched or tubby? How well can you hear the hall in the low level information? How clear is the double bass line.... deep and well pitch, or surfacy and tubby? What happens in the ff at the end of each section? Does the amp sail through without effort with all instruments still clear and sweet.... Or Does the image seem to saturate with a front-to-back collapse of stage and images, and the appearance of hardness? Can you hear Bernstein stomping his feet to encourage the players some 12 minutes into the movement? Can you hear him subvocalizing during the final brass fanfare in the movement?
Few amps can do these things correctly even if they are fully broken in. The M625 original version (except for the very first few serial numbers) negotiated all the scenarios above without any issues... The S2 version is much improved over the original. I do not have sufficient experience with the VAC amps to make a meaning ful comparison.
Regards, Guido |
Guido, wow, that is amazing. Okay. I have a list now. I see you like the Jeff Rowland equipment. So do I.
Mapman asked if there was one if there were any systems I would not be happy with from among the ones I have heard. To be honest, this is a great question too. I don't think I want to live with the PS Audio (I would always be thinking I could do better), or the ARC (though can't say why exactly — maybe it tries to do too many things all at once: amp, preamp, DAC, headphone amp). The Air Tight the shop had would not be sufficient to drive the Wilsons and they only bring in amps on order so that ruled that out. So that brings me back to the JR and VAC, where all of this started. If the JR and VAC Sigma were the only amps to choose from, I think I would go with the JR for ease of use and the 'weight' behind the sound (if that makes sense). The Sigma is really lovely, and though I haven't heard it with the (controversial) Wilson's, it lacks something by comparison. That is why I want to wait and hear the 200 IQ. And see if this is better. But JR for many reasons, some practical, is winning so far.
I did come across an amp that looks lovely though there is no dealer where I live. It is called Einstein. I have no idea about price or anything else, but it has a nice look to it. And since I don't have a 'woman-cave' -- the equipment is right in the main living space, aesthetics are also important. JR wins hands down over VAC on this one -- though those little orange glowy tubes are nice to look at!!!
I will listen to the Dvorak pieces. Very exciting. |
Hi again rinpoche? Are you in Canada? And is your dealer Angie Lisi from American Sound? If this were the case, please say hi to Angie from me... He was singly responsible for making me discover the magic of the Rowland sound in 1998.
Concerning Einstein, I heard their products a few times at some length, but never managed to like them much. Regretably, the word "rough" seemed to apply more often than not... With my test tracks, Einstein never reached terribly close to the top of the musical heap, and tended to blow tubes on sharp . Treble intermodulation was too easily present... On the other hand, the brand might have improved since a couple of years ago.
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I am using a biwire set of Elrod Gold Statement speaker cables between my VAC Phi 200 and a pair of TAD CR-1's. I will admit they are stupid expensive, but they improved my system sound in ways that I appreciate enough. Before that I was using a true biwire of Clear Day Double Shotgun cables, which I think are fantastic cables, in general, and crazy good for the money, IME.
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With Rowland gear, Elrod wires would not be my first choice.... In my system, Elrod PCs tended to filter the treble and swell the mid bass.
Brands of wire products with which I have had amazing results are Shunyata, Nordost Valhalla II, and High Fidelity Cables (HFC) made by Rick Schultz in Dallas.
G. |
Pieces of a Dream - I Feel Like Singing (smooth jazz) Female vocal and instruments
Beach Boys - In My Room (for male vocals)
Eric Clapton (26 nights) Edge of Darkness (tune he plays with orchestra)
Anita Baker - No One in the World - female vocals
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This is so good. Everyone is talking and everyone is listening to each other. So great. Yes, Angie is the one and I am in Canada. I will say hi when I see her next time. At the moment, I have Crystal Cables but they might not be enough for the JR or VAC? They are not crazy expensive in the scheme of what is out there, but they were crazy expensive to me (used). However, I might have to change? I don't know the brands other than Nordost and Shunyata that were mentioned. I will look into it. In terms of music -- let's keep exchanging ideas. It is so great to learn what other listen to. Have any of you heard John Campbell singing Way Down in the Hole or Leonard Cohen? Here is the youtube to Campbell https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8oXSmK3uoEAlso, I find it really really hard to narrow it down to 4 songs. I think Jennifer Warnes singing Somewhere Somebody comes to mind and so does Jeff Buckley singing something maybe 'Hallelujah' and maybe even Lyle Lovett singing something? Eric Clapton and B. B. King singing Come Rain or Come Shine? There are so many songs to listen to. And so on and on!! I love Anita Baker. |
rinpoche,
"
At the moment, I have Crystal Cables but they might not be enough for the JR or VAC? They are not crazy expensive in the scheme of what is out there, but they were crazy expensive to me (used). However, I might have to change? "
If it were me I'd get settled on the equipment first, get it into my system using my current cables, allow sufficient time for the equipment to break in while I listen along the way and determine my satisfaction. I'd hold off on injecting an additional variable at this time; but just my 2 cents |
I’ll second Facten’s comment just above. Also, keep in mind that cable effects tend to be particularly application-dependent, and the sonic effects of a given cable may often depend as much or more on what the cable is connecting than on whatever intrinsic sonic character the cable may have. With those dependencies generally not having a great deal of predictability.
That being one reason why it is not at all uncommon for a considerably less expensive cable to outperform a considerably more expensive cable in a given system, as is borne out by many experiences that have been reported here and elsewhere.
Best,
--Al
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Got it. Amp first. Cables later!!!!!!!
When that time comes, I might ask you all for suggestions.
R |
Facten,
Excellent advice !
Charleso, |
rinpoche an overall piece of advice, one i learned later in this hobby, slow down and perhaps try to just enjoy the process as much as your goal. I mean your shopping for a new stereo system how exciting is that?? And as I like to sometimes tell people the very best deal out there........is equipment you already own! So totally check out the Crystal Cables with your new gear it costs nothing and you may love the combo. Not to mention those are very well regarded cables in their own right the sister company of Siltech if I remember correctly.
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+1 Jond, wise comments as usual.
Charles, |
Thank you. I will try them for sure. Get used to everything. Maybe down the road try some loaners to see if there is any substantive difference. In the meantime, I will need interconnects. That I don't have! |
Rinpoche Nice advice provided here. You mentioned Jeff Buckley and a song from Grace. I think that Tracks 1, 2, 3 & 7 are pretty amazing on that record. You also mentioned Lyle Lovett. Check out Joshua Judges Ruth. I think
Tracks 4,
5, 7, 9, 10, 11 are all great demo tracks from that record. But perhaps my favorite track on that record is North Dakota. It is heart-breakingly lovely and it really sounds good on a music making machine. What you'll be auditioning would easily be in that category. So, go have some fun and let us know how it goes. And remember, just take music that you love and know sounds good and then you'll know how each amp/speaker combo sounds.
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rinpoche
For clarity, the Crystal Cables you have then are speaker cables? What interconnects did the dealer use when you auditioned the JRs? |
Yes, I have Crystal 'Diamond' speaker cable and a power cord. I am sorry I don't know exactly what cables (speaker or interconnects) were used. Maybe be 'Transparent'? I don't know but I can ask. I believe the interconnects to the JR were balanced.
Also, pokey77 — love all the musical suggestions. Joshua Judges Ruth is fabulous and so is Jeff Buckley's Grace. Every track you suggest!!! Lilac Wine is amazing. |
Hi Rinpoche, Regarding interconnects, if I recall correctly all of the equipment possibilities that have been mentioned would be suitable for use with balanced XLR interconnects. While opinions about cable selection tend to be all over the map, as you may have seen in any number of other cable-related threads, FWIW my suggestion is that initially, at least, you simply purchase some inexpensive Mogami Gold Studio balanced cables. And who knows, despite their modest price you may find them to be suitable for use permanently. Those cables, by the way, are the de facto interconnect of choice in professional recording studios worldwide. Best, -- Al |
Excellent advice. I will look into them. Thanks!!! A good place to start. |
Cables are about system synergy...no such animal as the best. I have an all Jeff Rowland system driving Monitor Audio PL500's and I use Wireworld Platinum interconnect and power cables. I use Wireworld Silver Eclipse 7 speaker cable. There are too many possible combinations, so try a couple and choose what sounds best to your ears. |
rinpoche,
Was curious if you knew which ICs were used during your audition from the vantage point of if you liked the sound it might be a consideration for you without others' preference bias (including mine). Just a thought. |
Yes, Mogami cables. One of the reasons why the recordings are of poor quality. They are okay at best nothing more. You don't want this stuff for Rowland and VAC. DiMarzio is better, I still keep the RCA pair, but I don't think he makes them any longer. For serious comparison I would try Purist, High Fidelity, Stealth, Jorma, Tara, Wireworld. They might all give an excellent but somewhat different sound. Then it will be a matter of taste. |
Rinpoche, I have an unusual suggestion. I suspect that you have a good hearing. Go to www.mundo-flamenco.com ; it is a place that sells good acoustic guitars. Click on the 'guitars' and listen to the guitars that are not for sale. It's MP3 but you can hear the difference quite clearly. If you like more the guitar by Antonio Marin Montero - you probably want VAC amp, if the one by Conde - probably Rowland. They are both great guitars. |
That is an interesting suggestion! I will try the guitars. And get back to you. Thanks!! See, it is clear, cables are very subjective! Also, within the various brands suggested there are different grades. So that is also a question. Also, in terms of cables (interconnects), perhaps I could look for something used? E.g., these are available at a dealer near me (I have no idea how old they are): Nordost Valhalla XLR 1M interconnects. B-stock cable with a minor blemish, functionally perfect. Top tier resolution from top to bottom with an expansive soundstage. $4499.99 MSRP when current. Asking $1895 (in Canadian Dollars).
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Rinpoche,
Please if possible listen to the Nordost cable with your system . These are expensive and you may not even like them once heard ( or you may love them, who knows). This brand of cables does little for me but of course that's merely my impression, others find them terrific.
Charles, |
Hi Rinpoche, Regarding the interconnects that would be used at the output of the Aeris DAC, I note the following statement in the Aeris’ description: Transformer balanced XLR line outputs provide outstanding output common-mode noise rejection, eliminate potential ground loops, and ensure compatibility with other equipment. I also note that it has a 120 ohm output impedance, which although not especially low is considerably lower than in many other designs. I suspect that those factors will result in that DAC having somewhat less sensitivity to cable differences (at its balanced analog outputs) than would be the case in many other circumstances. Especially if the length that is necessary is only 1 meter, as most analog cable effects are proportional to length. Best, --Al |
