Pretty sure SWCRABVHWI is a song on Cream's Disraeli Gears.
Jeff Rowlands Amp and Dac vs. VAC amp and DAC
Hello, I am new to this forum but I have a question. I am trying to pair an amp + DAC with my Wilson Sabrinas. I have listened to Jeff Rowlands integrated with the Aeris DAC. And the VAC Sigma integrated with the Aeris DAC. Price is a factor and so is space. Does the 625 need a pre-amp? Any suggestions or thoughts?
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Hi Rinpoche, While DarTZeel equipment is generally very well regarded, some things in Stereophile’s review of the NHB-108 would give me pause, taking into account the low impedance of your speakers (4 ohms nominal, dipping to between 2.5 and 3 ohms or so in the area of 100 to 200 Hz, where a lot of music contains a lot of energy. Most notable among several points of concern: The manufacturer strongly recommends using the Lo setting if the amplifier is to be used with low impedances. However, the amplifier then delivers significantly lower power at clipping—43W into 8 ohms (16.3dBW), 68W into 4 ohms (15.3dBW), and 95W into 2 ohms (13.75dBW)—with no reduction in low-power THD.Best regards, -- Al |
So, overall this might not be a good fit based on the specifications of the amp vis-a-via the speakers. I hear you. There is no way at all of hearing them together. That is for sure. So it would have to be a sure thing. Thanks — I have no idea about the technical aspects. I just trust my ears and they have not heard the amp. I would have to travel to hear it and why bother if it is not advised. Okay, back to JR. So happy I have something wonderful to keep coming back to!!!!! |
Swiss have their own ways of doing things and they would expect you to follow them precisely. They also charge you for the honour of owning their equipment. Double the normal price, I mean. Not for me, thank you. As an exotic very expensive choice I would consider Ypsilon Electronics from Greece. $25k for hybrid integrated. |
I have owned a Vac Sigma 160i integrated for 4 years. The tubes have not needed replacement during that time, and biasing the tubes needs to be done rarely, and literally takes a minute or two. It is a very simple procedure. Don't be concerned about the Sigma being "high mantenance". That has not been my experience. Regarding running the tv through it, that would add a lot of hours to the tube usage. I would suggest another solution for the tv, I bought a B&W Panorama soundbar for mine. |
I am having the best time!!!!!!!!!!!!! I love it. I tried not to (inna) but I do. Wade in the Water by Sweet Honey and the Rock was spectacular. I will look into a media center (a J River type of thing?? Tomorrow is my birthday and this is the best gift I could imagine. Until next year when I look for a preamp. So, it is Jeff Rowland 625 Series 2. Thank you all for your encouragement, your kindness, your support, and help. It really was the best!!!!!!! Wish I could meet all of you face to face. Happy listening. R |
That's good, you settled it. Don't be so sure - you may not like our faces. Hear from you next year, about the preamp, if you feel you need it. There is an old Gryphon preamp here right now. I wonder, how would it work with your Rowland? No, it's not a suggestion and frankly I have no idea how and if it would work. Have any of you people ever tried this or similar combination? |
Hi RinPoche, Richard of course is correct. If your M625 S2 is factory-fresh, you can expect it to evolve for as much of 1500 hours. It is quite likely that during the first 500 hours or so you might experience days in which the sound is strangely anomalous... perhaps dark or univolving... These dips are short term. The overall trend is towards purity, subtlety, and resolution. By about 800 hours, the break-in progress becomes asymptotic, with progressive tapering of sonic evolution towards completion. Guido |
Jon2020 was right! SWCRABVHWI! You are a great bunch. In a way you all held my hand and walked me through what seemed like a difficult but exciting journey. I really value your input and support. It was like having really good friends who I could talk to. All through the process you were kind and thoughtful. Once again, THANK YOU ALL very much. And thank you for the birthday wishes. July 4th was a big day for me here in Canada. I am now a proud owner of a JR 625 S2 amp and Aeris DAC. It is a great amp. I am very happy. This is something I can live with and build upon. Maybe add a tube amp or the JR Corus down the line. I will start a thread when that time comes. LOL. So, I guess this thread comes to a happy ending — and everyone lives happily ever after. R |
Hmmm. Inna didn't you suggest that rinpoche explore Lamm and Gryphon with her speakers? Now you're suggesting that the Rowland might outclass her speakers. Help me understand why you recommended those and not something a step down from the Rowland given your comment above; I'm not quite tracking - txs |
The speakers are fabulous. And they really fit with the JR amp. During this whole process I contacted a JR dealer in the US. He said, "I think the Sabrinas are the absolute best speaker on the market in their price range." Now you might not agree and that could cause a whole other discussion (and maybe even a contentious one). Also, I can't say since I don't know that many speakers, but from the things I have heard while auditioning the various amps, they are (to my ears) excellent. Also, so far they sound wonderful with the JR. They might be small and of course I could go bigger, but size is an issue in my home. For now, they sound really really really good. I am very happy with them. Of course there are always better pieces out there, but I really need to just settle in to this for now and be happy. And I am!! You should hear them. They are very sweet. Thank inna. |
Hi Rinpoche, looks like you are a real lover of music instead of an obsessive audiophile... Stay the course... Enjoy the magic of music... And do not fall prey to Upgraditis Furiosa -- an extreme form of Audiophrenia Nervosa, whose perils are discussed in the seminal article linked below... http://positive-feedback.com/Issue46/audiophrenia.htm
Saluti, Guido |
Guido, That was very funny. Luckily, I don't think I have Audiophrenia Nervose but given that it is all about the music, it is hard to know if I have upgraditis? I mean, what I think happens, at least to me, is that my listening plateaus and I want to go deeper and deeper into the music. I am a professor of Indian philosophy and I use music as a way to open to writing and to meditation. So, it is very important to me. But, the technology is a means not an end. I must keep that in sight. Still, I have to say I do want to keep growing and sometimes that means upgrading and tweaking — just not YET. R |
This was the second time I've tried Transparent Audio. When I had Wilson Audio Sashas I tried Transparent cables. "In my system" they didn't sound natural and I purchased a cable by Silver Audio. Some say Wilson's are great with Transparent and feel they're a natural match because Wilson's are wired internally with Transparent cables. Still many others prefer other cables and that's why you need to audition them! |
I wonder how this would sound through the Wilsons. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p71QK5TZDCc I believe that the situation when power amp outclasses speakers is better than the other way around. It is probably not easy for any speakers to outclass Lamm and Gryphon, so those amps could be for life. For this life, I mean. Unlike listening rooms, philosophycal space is unlimited, as far as eye can see. Or as far as ear can hear. |
Hi Rinpoche, here are some pointers about wire products with Rowland gear. Jeff Rowland in his factory's demo system uses almost exclusively Cardas Clear and Clear Beyond, as well as Nordost Odin II. Internally, all Rowland products are wired with Cardas wires. I have heard Jeff's system connected with Cardas wires and it was amazing. Nordost wires are incredibly expensive, thus unless you have an uber-generous budget, you will likely not consider them. In my own system, with a variety of Rowland components, over the last 18 years, I have had best results with: Nordost Valhalla II -- Not the original Valhalla, which sounds thin, but the 2nd iteration, which is still marvellously extended, but is also harmonically rich throughout the audible range. But once again, the problem with Valhalla II is the same as with Odin... The cost of ownership is very high. * A variety of Shunyata wires... Helix, CX, and the original Zitron Anaconda. Absolutely phenomenal wires... I have not heard the very latest iteration, but have been told that the newest middle-priced Z-tron Cobra might exceed the performance of all previous Anacondas. If you were seeking wires that are even more moderately priced, I have found the Furutech Evo II to be exceptional price performers, and some of the Furutech bulk wires to be even a little better than EVO II. Furutech wires can be ordered and custom-terminated by Elite Audio. You can contact Scott Markwell at Elite... Elite Audio Video Distribution
Having said all of the above, until your M625 stabilizes, any audition of wires will yield unreliable results... They will emphasize or overcompensate any temporary performance anomalies of M625 S2. Only after equipment is stable, auditioning wires is a useful exercise. Saluti,
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Excellent inputs from Guido, as usual. Some additional comments: Many Nordost and Cardas wires are often thought of as having intrinsic sonic characters that are in opposite parts of the spectrum, with some audiophiles being of the opinion that Cardas tends in the direction of excessive warmth, and some audiophiles being of the opinion that Nordost tends in the direction of a colder and more clinical sound. Of course, different models within each product line will differ in those and other respects, as Guido noted in the case of the Valhalla and Valhalla II. My main point in responding, though, is to point out that with the exception of the Cardas Clear and Clear Beyond speaker cables, what the Cardas, Nordost, and Furutech cables Guido mentioned all have in common (including the Cardas Clear interconnect) is very low capacitance (between 8 and 20 pf per foot in all cases). Which would seem to say that if other cables are considered, preference should be given to those having similarly low capacitance. Unfortunately, though, many and probably most manufacturers do not provide capacitance specs for their cables on their websites (Cardas, Nordost, and Furutech happening to be among a small number of notable exceptions). But in those other cases perhaps an email to the manufacturer would unearth that information. On the other hand, in the case of the Cardas Clear and Clear Beyond speaker cables (but not the Clear interconnect), capacitance is very high (278 and 446 pf/foot respectively). Presumably that is a consequence of those cables having been designed to provide extremely low inductance. The impedance of the Sabrina speaker rises to relatively high values (around 10 ohms or so) in the upper treble region, which is where inductance primarily matters, and that kind of impedance characteristic makes having low cable inductance relatively unimportant. So my instinct would be to avoid those particular speaker cables in this case. BTW, here is a link to a very nicely written review of the Furutech cables which Guido did a while back: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue45/furutech.htm Best regards, -- Al |
Wires are often a potshot even for the best informed. My advice is buy in a manner that enables you to experiment without taking a loss each time you might want to change. There are some vendors who offer generous return and exchange programs I hear. Myself, I tend to always buy wires used and not overpay so I can then resell and try others as needed. My other suggestion is do not assume cost indicates performance or best sound with wires. There may be some correlation but certainly no guarantee. I'd find something less expensive and suitable first and then experiment with others from there if needed but avoid the trap of paying a lot for new wires and then taking a financial beating if you decide they are not for you. |
A few thoughts. If the system sounds good enough now, there is no need to change anything, certainly not untill the question of adding preamp or upgrading speakers is answered. At this level I would not mix brands of interconnects and speaker cables unless I wanted to experiment with hundreds of brands. The fact that Rowland is wired with Cardas and Wilson with Transparent means exactly nothing from audiophile perspective. This is a digital source transistor based system, I would think that it needed some 'tubes' in the chain, that's neutral enough but full bodied cables that would bring out colour and texture, as opposed to coloration and additional digital artifacts. Are we talking about XLR balanced or RCA cables, by the way? If balanced, it's easier and less expensive. |
There are some used Audioquest Wel and Blue Yonder on line as well as Nordost Valhalla (not sure which ones, maybe II?). Right now my dealer was kind enough to lend me Transparent until she finds something used that would be right. I got the demo amp so it has some hours logged on it already. And I am doing my best to listen as much as possible. Thanks for the informed advice. R |
Hello, I don't really have interconnects yet between the Aeris DAC and JR amp. I totally agree that when the amp comes (next year?), I will consider seriously adding tubes or at least hearing the system with tubes. As of today, however, I need an XLR interconnect from the DAC to the amp. I only have this older Transparent as a loaner or I have to purchase it. I think I can do better. But what is the question? |
Come on, guys, I suspect some of you have a bunch of spare cables in the closet. Why don't you send them to the lady for audition? I don't have balanced cables. If you add tube pre-amp later, the interconnects you get now may not work well, besides you will need another set. Furutech was not a bad idea but may not be good enough for you, perhaps worth a try, I don't know. Personally, I don't touch Cardas, Nordost and Audioquest. Their very expensive models could be good in some systems, though. If the cable manufacturer is serious, even the least expensive cable should be okay in any system. Wire is not just a wire, but first of all it is a wire. |
Does Jeff Rowland now use standard XLR pin configuration? I think, I read that in the past that was not the case. Unless I read wrong. Someone here uses Wireworld cables with Rowlands. There is inexpensive Eclipse balanced cable for sale. This should give the impression of the brand. If you don't like it - throw it away if you don't want to deal with selling. In high end audio one should prepare for some losses, they happen. |
