@audiocaseevan
I just listened to a couple of Kendrick’s videos and want to buy that album that was on the Billboard charts for 400 weeks. Think that was something like M.aad.
The little that I just heard was less complex than “Pimp” but still had a musical thread that evolved and resolved. And his rap is very musical in its rhythmic beat.
Certainly not monotonous.
I too thought of the music of John Cage. Very avant-garde. I think he has a piece that is 4 minutes of silence. And there is much 20th century Classical that stretches the boundaries of what is music.
I really liked the Bliss N Eso. Rap very integrated into a familiar musical structure with acoustic instruments. I would like to hear more of them.
I did listen to all suggested videos and artists. The Elvis Costello was a lot of fun.
In my personal stretching of my musical experiences I have gotten heavily into David Bowie. Had always seen him at arms length as an almost bizarre character.
But now listening to his YouTubes I am drawn to his deeply charismatic vibe and highly sophisticated, progressive work.
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@mglik Stoked that you gave Kendrick the chance he deserves. Curious to know if you have listened to any of his other albums and if so, what you think of them. Definitely check out the album by Anderson .Paak, titled, ‘Ventura.’’ Lots of live instruments used in his recordings, he grew up playing drums and playing at church a lot, hence a bit more R&B flavor to his mix of rapped and sung vocals. He’s even won a couple Grammy awards over the years.
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@mglik
But hey, I too am happy that this thread has not devolved into some quasi political diatribe. This is what happened to my several past attempts to start a thread about my desire to understand and enjoy Rap.
It took me a long time to abide it.
If I may make a few suggestions.
- There is a wide swath of what maybe considered rap.
Here are some things I enjoy:
- “The Streets” album “A Grand Don’t Come for Free”. The album is laid out like an opera where each song are the parts of a whole story. And in that sense it is very good. The last song is brilliant with a rewind to offer two ways to end the story.
- “Immortal Technic” “Mistakes” is a song worth a listen to (IMO).
- I think group “House of Pain” may be considered rap. And I suspect that a bunch of Irishmen out of Boston also somewhat brought rap towards a larger following
A more recent finding was this: Whether it is spoken word, or rap… well… I am not too sure.
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@mglik *G* "I come in peace, I mean no one no harm." ;)
It's been rumored there are those amongst us that follow my...'train of thoughts', however derailed it may interpreted by others.
But the suggestion
of an impression
Of the motive
to insert in
an emotive
Tweaks m'brain
beyond the membrane...
*EDM insert*
Sorry...been in some state like this for 70.5 yrs. A habit that's a bit hard to 'recover' from....
I'll just go sit in the corner with my back to it, and just observe for awhile... ;)
*good natured tease* (nothing more, nothing less...*S*)
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I call Eminem M&M a game changer from gangsta rap who set his own
standard and being white a standard ,and $$ 250 million net worth.what many don’t realize even though is
95% of rappers are black, but much more people of all cultures purchase rap.
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Look at M&M he was Huge and helped change gangster rap which is degrading and vulgar , M&M had his own flair and toned it down and white which was a Shocker I am not much into rap but a couple CDs were pretty catchy
Jump up And get down.
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@jonwatches1
Thanks for the response. Maybe you didn’t see a subsequent post. I dug a little further and I actually like a few songs I sampled from Flo Rida. They were musical, had instruments and some singing. Even one song from Nicki Minaj was musical, but just one.
Southern rock huh? I listened to Skynyrd, 38 Special and early ZZ Top growing up, but I couldn’t tell you what’s going on in that genre since the 80’s. I’m principally a metal-head at heart with some tentacles into classic rock, classical Spanish guitar, modern blues, shred, atmospheric rock, a little acapella, and even doo-wop.
Off the beaten path, huh? Metal is definitely off the beaten path in this forum. It’s a genre that you’re either geared to gravitate to, or not. In that regard, it’s probably a little similar to rap. And it’s definitely not audiophile-friendly. I don’t know if you have any experience with it. You’re possibly familiar with Anthrax teaming up with Public Enemy about 30 years ago on a metal-rap song. But I won’t subject you to the more extreme versions of the genre that I prefer, however I will recommend one song that even if you don’t like it you’ll be surprised and entertained by it.
Five songs ... hmmm. It’s important that you follow these specific YouTube links for full effect of what you’re about to see with some of these artists.
Jinjer - Pisces: Progressive metal. Like it or not, you will be "entertained."
"sheer technical mastery and technique are so elemental to its form"
Dream Theater - The Dance of Eternity: The band that immediately comes to mind when terms like that are used. Every member of this band is a master of their instrument, except the singer, but this song is an instrumental. DT’s time signature changes can be a little disconcerting for people who aren’t into progressive- rock, metal or jazz. Their songs can be very complex.
OK, back to "off the beaten path."
My favorite guitarist (I play guitar).
Buckethead.- Jordan (live): Buckethead is likely an autistic savant. His skill level is ungodly. And he has over 300 albums of various styles and genres. Yes, 300. It’s so hard to pick one song because one only gives you a sliver of a glimpse into Buckethead’s repertoire, he’s so diverse, but this is a good start. And you have to see a live version to understand not only the skill, but the mind of Buckethead.
Lacuna Coil - Trip the Darkness: A gothic/alternative rock/metal band. Their album Comalies is actually audiophile-friendly. One of the few well-recorded rock/metal albums. Like your list, this is a band I would list as "accessible" to beginning metal-heads looking into "modern" metal.
When it comes to technical mastery I could list a slew of shredders that have ungodly guitar and compositional skills. Or I could list my second favorite guitar player, SRV, but I’m assuming, even though SRV is blues, if you know southern rock you probably know who he is. And I don’t want to freak you out with metal since it’s likely it won’t be accessible. What to do, what to do? OK, let me give you the guy who, IMO, created shred guitar.
Yngwie Malmsteen with the Japanese Philharmonic: Malmsteen created neo-classical shred guitar (I don’t want to hear from you Blackmore fans). Van Halen was THE guitar god at the time ... until Malmsteen released his first album in 1984 and changed the course of electric guitar. That album is what made me take up guitar. I can’t come anywhere near playing with his speed or accuracy. But neither can all but a handful of professionals. He was heavily influenced by Paganini and incorporated it with rock on guitar. Unfortunately, after his first album he proved not to be nearly as accomplished a composer as a guitar player. But that first album - Rising Force - is great. He spawned a slew of shredders on the Shrapnel label who themselves spawned another slew of shredders. He is the father of shred.
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Just a semantic difference. It's all Performance Art. Theatre departments are beginning to move from classes in "Oral Interpretation of Literature" to classes in "Spoken Word." Adding rhythm and sound effects to poetry is not new.
There is convincing evidence that this combination plus dance was the essence of performance values in ancient Greek theatre (c.500 BC) and continues to feature in popular performance arts of all types.
It's a positive, not a negative, to add music to another art form. Whether or not it confers the title "musician" on the person reciting the poetry is in the eye/ear of the beholder.
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But hey, I too am happy that this thread has not devolved into some quasi political diatribe. This is what happened to my several past attempts to start a thread about my desire to understand and enjoy Rap.
Just read that Kendrick Lamar is going into film production with the South Park guys. And I discovered that one of his albums set a record for remaining on the Billboard charts for 400 weeks! That and several Grammys, etc, etc.
And his acting was only criticized for being too “real”.
Clearly, it’s not just me who is a fan.
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@denverfred - heya! just wondering what does being able to read music, a vocalist's ability to play an instrument, etc have to do with anything? Plenty of great 'musicians' just bore the crap out of me because they're more concerned with showing off their skills than songwriting.
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Hey Jerry!
Is your coded verbiage the way you post on other threads?
Do you have any intention of plain speak any time now?
Maybe I am square but I find it impossible to follow your coin of phrase.
Is this your way of Rapping? Non capisco…
Although, kind of cool…
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Most Rap/Hip Hop is poetry accompanied by music. Check out "Poetry Slams" to hear Rap without the rhythm section.
I question the "musicianship" of many rappers. I question whether they can read music, play an instrument, etc. Anyone who thinks these guys are improvising the lyrics is living in cloud-cookoo land.
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*L* ric & rix, I’m just happy to straighten this out within my fetid mind... ;)
@ricmech23, Yes, my diy Walsh do work surprisingly well, thanks. Low bass gets shunted to a Polk sub, as earlier versions would heat up the voice coils and get the magnets hot to touch.
One of 4 fused the coil...Kapton formers and vented magnets are now SOP.
Still ’under development’, along with titanium cones; still 2-way as you’ve seen.
About 16" tall from base structure to top of hf driver. Have a smaller pair that are used daily as ’puter monitors....*s*
@rixthetrick, just wanted to let you ’in’ on the miscue.... :)
Lincoln Walsh did comment in his patent that he could see his design literally made nearly that large ’for stadiums’ and sports venues. How the ’magnets’ would be achieved...?! They would be unlikely to be ’static’ as in ’normal’ speakers, more electromagnetic as in ’screen’ versions...
I’m not sure I’d want to be next to one...
As for the 2 guys in the pic....the one by the door would be smashed against it while the one at the foot of the steps would be afoot trying to get out of the way of the frame as it lunged towards him. That, and the door opening isn’t tall enough, so they’re screwed from word one....*L*
Geeks being geeks....a forklift....no, a crane would be a better ’call’ on the task. But the magnet would have sucked up to the machine and made the whole process moot....
...not to mention anything ferrous within a ? radius....or the wattage of the amp to drive it...
Calls to mind a line from a song:
"50 thousand watts of Funky!", and wires the diameter of your forearm....🤪
Cheers, guys...👍
Jerry (Trying to give ’Jerrybuilt’ a positive spin... 😎...)
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@avsjerry - yeah no idea mate. All good brov.
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...rap songs about retired (pensioners) protecting pole dancers…
...Now, there's a market segment ripe for 'fulfillment'....;) *L*
Monday and it's still quiet out there.....I suspect there's a lot of us snowed into their homes today in AVL environs....spank the alarm, roll over, and drift back into Dreamland...*S* Impromptu 3 day weekends are rare enough...
@dabel Glad to be of some version of 'consciousness distortion', and thanks for being the 'straight man' of a off-center poke at everymans' fav toy....;)
"Not detachable, but goes off enough to keep a smile." *G*
*sigh* I guess I ought to be fractionally productive today, and actually -work- *shudder*
Oh, btw...apologies to rixthetrick and ricmech for confusing both...ric made a comment that I attribed to rix......but I'll be a snot and let you both figure out what i'm alluding to....but, no great shake of the earth involved....
Chalk up to MID.....'Multiple Identity Disease'...the only cure for it is pretty final....
Have a grate day, J
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@jssmith and @mglik I’m really glad you both gave those songs a listen, even though you didn’t like them very much.
What would be five songs you each would recommend? Things you like but might be off the beaten path - would be great to learn about something I haven’t heard before
I actually agree with a fair amount of what you said in response to those songs (and appreciate the objective content of your comments) - which is why taste is so interesting. Some of those qualities you dislike wind up being things I particularly like in rap (agreed - they aren’t conventionally “musical” & nothing distinctive about the instrumentation/performance - I mostly thought about them as being somehow “accessible”)
(One of my favorite genres for musicianship is southern rock. Holy fxck, those guys could shred. I listen because I love the songs, but it’s a genre where sheer technical mastery and technique are so elemental to its form)
For whatever reason, the closer rap gets to a voice, lyrics, delivery and a beat, the more I respond to it, on balance - maybe it’s the “purity” of what the artist is doing, and listening to how they play with rhythm, rhyme, pacing - vocalizing with/against/without regard to the beat in amazing ways. It’s why I like “Warning” by Biggie so much — those last two minutes are nothing but his voice, two minutes straight
And seriously, would be great to get some recommendations!
Glad this thread has (mostly) turned into a good discussion about music and ideas
Have a great day, everyone
@mrskeptic - Three Feet High n’ Rising is a really special album. They were doing something really different and special. I remember “I be blowin’” as my introduction to Maceo Parker, and a beautiful rabbit hole of exploration
@52356 the John Cage reference is really funny
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@asvjerry, your posts are enlightening. Glad I could be of some amusement ;-)
@52356, John Gage 4’33 and your post is priceless. Lol! Also, the Bob Dylan that you referred to earlier and the flashcard idea, I couldn’t help but remember INXS and their Mediate music video.
Music to unite, never to divide
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John Cage 4’33…now that is a beat I can rap my head around
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@asvjerry there are not many groups that do the rap songs about retired (pensioners) protecting pole dancers… like the example I posted earlier.
@rixthetrick that esso is good,.. ta
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(The Brain Police may confiscate the previous....read fast....)
@holmz , I totally agree, frankly. Rap began before the name was made, but it hasn't really interfered with its' evolution(s). Hilltop Hoods is an excellent example of where the arguments of artistry dissolve....
Sung to the beat, string quartet intro....what's not to love? ;)
Just trying to keep the neurons amused and the onboard pump doing its' own rhythm....
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@dabel , *rotflmao* and nearly having a 'Depends Descent'....
It's best that he's cool with his...'option'. Just think, you can rent it out...but it'd better stand up for whatever it's applied into...or on.....by...
Lloyd's of London is your first call after the.....'discovery.' Ought to be the first thing (...well, perhaps, the Second) to do with the thing....
Funny that you mention such, but it's an 'adult audience' and everyone's' home from church....🙄....or whatever they've 'been up to...' "😏"
To totally derail this thread (Rap? Yes and No co-exist; another cosmic leap. *S*):
I actually found the Very Same Item 'Our...Hero?....ehh) found next to a burnt-out toaster oven.
The one I discovered was hanging by its' cord from a tree in the dog relief area of the complex we were living in.
Imagine my surprise. "Pennies from Heaven", but this?
Very tempted to put signs out nearby:
Found! 😜
One large purple
'personal item"
No questions asked.
Batteries not found
nor included
281-xxx-xxxx
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That Hilltop Hoods album with the orchestra they did years ago was quite good, and yeah they cover more social issues than most other rappers do.
This Bliss n Eso song is a little more my scene though now.
@avsjerry - Born Slippy, Faithless and many others, I grew up to those tunes.
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This list turned out to be not very "musical" and therefore not very listenable.
- Slick Rick - The Great Adventures Of Slick Rick (Children's Story is a masterpiece)
- NAS - Illmatic
- Outkast - Stankonia
- Beastie Boys - Licensed to Ill
The Kanye, Jay Z, Ludicrus, Missy Eliot, etc are full of musical themes and counterpoint rap that make them interesting.
"Without sounding like I am beating a dead horse, though, my only complaint with rap is of a musical nature. For the most part, it is too simple, poorly played, repetitive, musically trite for my tastes.
The problem I see, for my tastes, is if there ever was a subgenre of rap that fit my criteria for the music I like (high level of musicianship, complexity, nonrepetitive, deep and broad emotional and intellectual content, it would probably not even be identifiable as rap any longer."
No longer identifiable as Rap any longer? I do think the genre is pretty broad. Some cuts are actually sung!
IMHO - Rap sounds better with a philharmonic orchestra playing the music.
https://youtu.be/Uyc0Lnxf95M
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Of course it is. I think if I were to recommend a couple albums to someone making a genuine attempt to appreciate the genre, I’d go with these:
Reflection Eternal - Train of Thought(2000). This is a project Talib Kweli did with DJ Hi-Tek and is pretty palatable to folks who like melody and variety with tempo. He pays tribute to so many musicians who came before him in so many unique ways all over this album.
Nas & Damien Marley - Distant Relatives(2010) Nas is your favorite rapper’s favorite rapper. This album also has a few songs that are not rap, and the use of real instruments on some of it. The subject matter of the album, and the messages behind it actually puts this in my top 10 albums of all-time. There is just so much to unwrap, and has many lines that I only understood after I took a history of Africa course in college. Maybe pair this album with the book King Leopold’s Ghost to get a better grasp of the lyrics.
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....and then, there's just the satisfying sub-stuff stalking about the edges of rap rhapsody, just because it's meant to played Loud.
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....besides, it's Sunday (well, what's left in EST), and snowed -in into quiet isolation,
....and hopefully not as stressed as our hero in the above.... *G*
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...hey, Elvis is in the building!
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@mglik , you’re not the 1st to query that... ;)
@dabel can’t have the flashlight, I know what he’d end up looking at instead of the Mad mag....or Hustler....*tsk* ;)...
@rixthetrick had commented ’elsewhere’ on my Walsh project diy speakers...and Yes, they like rap, along with most else. A process in progress...*s*
@sonic79 just dropped a dime in my ears as to more I’d like to hear.
I just enjoyed the juxtapositions betwixt Knock You Out vs. Nobody Speak.
Followed by a vague rant by yours unruly as to why I listen to nearly anything at least once. Sieve and repeat as needed.. ;)
Some play at food...cars, coups, go through the alphabet.
I play with English and speakers, the latter in a personal way beyond the box.
So, there.... *G*
...saw a variation on the ’escape’ in John Wick #1, regarding recurring themes...;)
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@mglik , you might take a look at MF DOOM's album called "Madvillainy." A relatively easy introduction to that masterpiece is the song "All Caps." It's splendid, smart, and poignant. And it's very short to boot! It's also self-evidently music. You might even recognize some of the songs that he's sampling.
If you want to gets a sense of his "sophistication," you might look at the long piece in the New Yorker by Ta-Nahesi Coates ("The Mask of Doom") or the "Appraisal" in the New York Times following his death about a year ago. It's not hard to find laudatory, insightful commentary on his work.
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asvjerry
Appreciate your post but have no idea of what you are saying.
Can you reiterate in more a more understandable manner?
I am sincerely interested in what you are trying to say.
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Can I have that flashlight for underneath the sheets? Please! ;-)
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....and dat's th' truoth, youth....(lisp rap) ...you heard it hear, firsth... ;)
@dabel ...y'all had it comin' to ya', atcha', in your face, space, interfaced & interlaced....😏😁
(The sharp and lit amongst may have noticed a thematic 'twin' shared by 'Knock You Out' & 'Nobody Speak'...
Both start within & without of a ring...the 2nd a spoof of Dr. Strangelove, better lit?
The opening 'gestures', both lead to strife of their type. But which violence do you prefer?
Both end with a 'take out the trash' downer, one for Debbie & one for ma...
@sonic79 ...and Thank You for that....*G* I'm in need of a 'loud fix' on a snow isolation sort of daze... ; )
and @rixthetrick...and they're getting to look a bit better while doing just that... ;)
I, and I'll assume that a number of us have had the 'mixed mas of music' absorbed in our lifeform spans...
I know I have...survived them all, so far ("...Death Metal doesn't stop him! Nothing! He finds 'beauty' in the chirping of a modem! We're doomed....and confused..."
All genres have their peaks and valleys.
Just because I like to clip the hillsides at very high BPM rates and bass boosted up 'nuff to dust the woofer cones doesn't make monstrous....much..... 😏
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Just checked 2Pac… disappointed. I see that he sold 75 million records worldwide.
Surely, can’t really hear what an artist is like only hearing a few minutes of 1 song.
But in checking out recommendations of ones to hear, none have the creative progression of Kendrick Lamar. I understand that the world of Hip Hop is vast.
Please give me a list of some artist/song suggestions that are truly sophisticated and interesting. The monotone raps just don’t do it for me. Especially when they don’t particularly pay attention to the musical threads. That is, incorporating the rap into the overall soundscape.
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Congrats to the OP for being open enough to discover something new. That’s the point of the journey. If you liked Kendrick, there are dozens of artists and hundreds of albums guaranteed to pique your interest if you take the time to search. I’ve been where you were and had friends kind enough to tolerate my narrow-mindedness and patient enough to slowly introduce me to hip hop to the extent that I will now happily swap a hip hop record in right after a bout of classical and vice versa. Much of that change comes from educating myself on the history of the genre, the same way jazz history adds so much depth to the exploration of jazz.
These kinds of threads are always entertaining in the worst way because invariably you start to wonder, are some of these people cycling through the same 3 records on thousands of dollars worth of gear? Hilarious. Explore a little. Get out of your western-centric mindset for a minute and challenge yourself to appreciate a sound that might be new to you but is natural to someone else. Don’t use your age as an excuse - plenty of neuroscience out there to prove that you keep your mind sharp by exposing it to novelty. And for godsakes, let go of tired, reductive arguments about what music is and is not. All the great musical innovation in history was built on someone questioning the established definition of music.
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Rap is valid , it's just not music .
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I grew up on rap as teenager in the 90’s. Now in my 40’s, I find myself stuck on Tom Petty and classic rock lol. Something we never listened to growing up. My parents listened to salsa music which most kids that I know didn’t listen to their parents music. When I started my career in aviation I found myself surrounded by guys 20 years older than me and the shop radio stuck on classic rock 24/7. I hated it lol. It took a very long time for me to actually listen and give it a chance. We’re talking about years and years as I wouldn’t give in even if it sounded a little ok. But something in my mind clicked. I started learning that a lot of the rap songs I loved had beats sampled from classic rock songs. It was crazy to learn that. The best thing that could happen was me being open minded and wanting to learn more about music as I was depriving myself by being stuck on one genre. As my journey as an audiophile grew my listening palate grew to jazz music, country music, and now classical music. Just like I don’t like all rap music the same holds for these other genres. So I understand how difficult it is to start listening to different music to what you grew up on. Even the rap music being put out today is completely different to what I grew up on. With that being said I favor my generation of rap to what’s being put out now. If you go into it with an open mind and a willingness to learn something completely different you may find yourself enjoying something you never thought in your wildest dreams you would.
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Widen the definition perhaps. Symphony Sid coined the phrase vocalese during be-bop. Is the sound of tap dancing music? How about a tonal “classical music”. Here are three great definitions of rap in a wider definition for me:
Subterranean Homesick Blues"
Bob Dylan :
Johnny's in the basement
Mixing up the medicine
I'm on the pavement
Thinking about the government
The man in a trench coat
Badge out, laid off
Says he's got a bad cough
Wants to get it paid off…..
King Pleasure
Parker’s Mood:
Come with me,
If you want to go to Kansas City…
I’m feeling lowdown and blue,
My heart’s full of sorrow.
Don’t hardly know what to do.
Where will I be tomorrow?….
The Beatitudes
Matthew
3Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.
4Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the Earth.
6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be satisfied.
7Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy…..
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Comparison ...
1977 George Benson - The World Is A Ghetto
1996 Geto Boys - The World Is A Ghetto
The palate of rappers, music evolves gents ... flow with it ....
@asvjerry, I knew it was only a matter of time before you'd throw down some LL Cool J ;-)
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Rap is from the ghetto. They used what they had to tell a story. It’s not about having a full orchestra. It’s about the flow of vocals. To say rap is not music and to say all the talent is at a click of a button is ridiculous. There’s a lot of music you won’t catch me listening to but that doesn’t mean it’s not music.
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Garcia asserted Rap is not music because it lacks two of the three essential qualities of music-- melody and harmony. In his view, rhythm (the third quality) alone does not constitute "music" and I agree.
Australian aboriginals used instruments not known to the rest of the world, by that definition their playing of instruments and their music is not actually music - yeah, I call "utter nonsense" on that limited view.
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After listening to several of the suggestions here and elsewhere, including Kayne West, Missy Elliot, Tyler the Creater, Snoop Dog, Tupac Shakur, Nicki Minaj, Flo Rida and others (I chose the best-selling names to see what's considered the cream-of-the-crop), I feel I have a better understanding of the reason for the chasm.
I think the rap that really irritates those of us who hate rap is the type that doesn't have any "musical" talent. They don't use "real" instruments, everything is created by moving a mouse around a desktop, the beats are monotonous and simplistic and the talking is monotone and not "musical." Those are artists like Kanye West, Jay-Z, Tupac Shakur, Tyler the Creater and Missy Elliot.
What I found after digging deeper is that there are actually "musical" rappers. I don't know what their whole catalog is like, but Flo Rida actually has musical songs, uses a lot of "real" instruments (or they're exceptionally well-sampled) and sometimes sings instead of talks. I even stumbled upon one Nicki Minaj song that was musical, but just one. So maybe like *pop, which I also dislike, there are a few decent songs.
Am I going to start "listening" to them? No. But I find them acceptable as background music.
* I watch Rick Beato's videos where he critiques the current pop charts. Recently he did the ten song-of-the-year Grammy nominees. All but a couple were pathetic three- or four-chord monotonous progressions with no time signature changes and no instrumental or vocal talent. And the couple that weren't were no better than background music. Most of the other chart-topping videos he does are universally unlistenable. I have to play some Dream Theater just to regain the brain cells I lost listening to them. Granted, pop has always generally sucked, but older pop at least had some songs that required talent.
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The very suggestion in the title is absurd!!
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"The marketplace spoke."
The marketplace operates on the lowest common denominator.
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Even farting is a valid musical form for those who like it
do you keep the windows open or closed?
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