Hey All, There once was a time when I looked forward to shopping for arcane mono classical and jazz vinyl. The anticipation of hearing a newly cleaned recording from 1957 that I didn’t realize existed until just a few hours prior. The satisfaction of owning 200 plus records. But now since I’ve upgraded my DAC and Transport, I’ve become disenchanted with vinyl. It still sounds musical but not nearly as close to a live performance as my digital setup. So I’m now I’m thinking about selling my ASR Mini Basis Exclusive MK 2 phono preamp and my modified Thorens TD 145 with AT 33 mono anniversary cartridge. I could put the money towards a surgical procedure that I’ve been putting off. Will I regret this afterwords? I don’t even know how much to ask for the equipment or whether someone would even take an interest in it. Any ideas out there?
You got me. I was really just playing with simple numbers to see how good of a business it would really be. I had no firm agenda or message behind it.
Now, you made me think what the moral of the story/calculations would be. I think I would want to say "There are more efficient ways to become a millionaire". Someone may like it, but 66 000 of whatever money a year is a very slow way to a millionaire. The trick is that being a millionaire is not what it used to be. Take U.S.A. as an example...
Full-time working men in 2019 had median earnings of $57,456
66 000 a year is less than 20% more than that median income.
I am sure examples you gave have done well, but it is a lots of fine work, apparently it has to be a number of people/employees involved, organization, etc. And with all that effort, 15 years and lots of luck to get above median earnings. For the love of it, a person can get lucky and enjoy, but as a career choice, there are more reliable ways to become a millionaire.
I don’t know what are you trying to say here @glupson ? Only ebay score of Craig Moerer is 229 261 ... Even if each record sold for $10 it’s already over $ 2 000 000 ....
Apart from what they sell direct on their own website, also on discogs with another 19636 deals since 2008. Craig and his Records By Mail offers one of the most comprehensive selections of vinyl LPs and 45s available anywhere. Housed in an 8,000 square foot warehouse that currently holds 2 million records, Craig and his talented, dedicated staff at Records By Mail serve music lovers in more than 60 countries.
You’d better watch his interview if you want to know more about business model or to see a warehouse full of vintage records. He’s been doing it for entire life. They travel all over USA to buy collections (vinyl lovers dies too).
I know very well what i’m talking about, my examples of the price tags for rare soul records is not even maximum, there are northern soul records that cost over $5k each, believe it or not buy they sell those too on auctions. There is a huge and very strong scene for this type of music worldwide. And I have to mention that rare American records are much cheaper in the USA than in UK, Europe or Japan.
Vinyl is priceless, digital is free.
Even if a reissue of the rare soul record available for £5 it will not affect the price for an original press and it can be 100 times as much.
It’s a whole other world that most audiophiles do not understand at all when they discuss digital versus analog! It’s a cultural difference, not sound quality.
When people discuss only sound quality they demonstrate their narrow mind.
Vinyl still alive not only because of the quality, it’s a culture, people love to go to the stores, flea markets... searching for records because it’s cool, it’s a life style. They can discover music, unknown stuff on vintage vinyl.
It’s not nostalgia, because young people are crazy about this process too, they are looking for record NOT because of the sound quality, they already have digital, they are born in digital era, and they want analog.
Maybe for retired people vinyl is nostalgia, but people under 30 are into vinyl too (all over the world).
This is why streaming can’t replace the analog, never!
I took that into account. That would be 1000 records for a million, assuming each record is priced that high. Over 15 years, it is one record sold every six days, or so. So a bit more than one a week. That would certainly make it for less demanding work with packing and shipping. If that were a case, that warehouse for 1000 records would not be that large. Slightly larger closet, if even that much. Maybe "warecloset" instead of "warehouse".
Of course, if a person bought real warehouse full of records, let’s say 100 000 of them to sift through and look for those that could be sold for £1000 each, it would make sense, but it would bring us back to a lots of work.
Assuming that a person works from Monday to Friday for those 15 years, she/he would have to check about 25 records a day. For a work day of 8 hours, slighly more than 3 records an hour. Slightly less than 20 minutes per record.
During that time, a person can pick those expensive ones and sell them, assuming they sell as soon as they are found in the warehouse. Packing and mailing them will take some tome away from checking what is in those 100 000 records so it will have to be more than 3 per hour checked.
Still, it does not seem to be that great of a business plan as records bought must have cost some money, too. Not to go into storage space, advertising, etc. And, of course, in my example no millionaire paid any tax anywhere. For that, to become a millionaire, a person has to increase all the above numbers by whatever tax rate is.
Just to clarify a bit, I would to some degree regret selling my table and phono amp. Additionally, I'm not comparing mono analogue to stereo digital, rather I'm saying that the quality of my digital front end is so good, that I might not miss playing vinyl all that much. I am limited based on the quality of tonearm, cartridge, etc... If I had the flagship ASR phono stage, a six thousand dollar table and a three thousand dollar cartridge, the competition between digital and analogue would be tighter. Would I prefer to have something versus not having something; that answer to that would likely always be yes.
Some old vinyl is just that... poor mastering, poor recording process, and worse, too many pressings per... I have a few direct disks that stun me regularly with their presence, detail, and sheer impact. My secondary-favs are some digital recordings (there were a few great ones) that were then sent to vinyl with love and care. I want a better streamer/DAC also, but how I listen to that source is vastly different than vinyl.
a2d, If you find vinyl so laughable, why are you here at all? I am not offended by your opinion at all, but why? I don't feel the urge to go on a digital forum and make jokes about RBCD.
I see a majority of responses for keeping the vinyl setup. However that doesn’t quite solve the @goofyfoot problem of needing $1K for his surgery.
I wonder if all of us who hope goofyfoot keeps the TT and phono would be open to the idea of raising $1K? I will be happy to make a donation for our fellow audiophile in need of surgery so he can breathe better, enjoy music and live a healthy life.
Hopefully if any one else is open to doing the same to help the OP out, please contact him privately. I suggest OP to open up an account with ‘go fund me.com’.
There are American SOUL 45s from the late 60s - early 80s that goes typically for £300 each nowadays, when sellers spread their sales lists by fax (in the 90’s) some of those records were priced at £5 - £30 max. There are records that goes for £1000+ each!
In the US look for RecordsByMail.com - the largest online retailer of used, vintage and collectible vinyl. The man behind this warehouse filled with millions of records is Mr. Craig Moerer (respected dealer and collector).
In UK it’s John Manship and his raresoulman.co.uk
I’m talking about records that you can’t afford, but record collectors are happy to bid on it (auctions). Pressed on private independent labels in 500 - 3000 copies they have a cult statis today on the Soul Scene. Americans never rated their own music as high as collectors from UK, Europe and Japan. Tons of records were exported from America before your local dealers realized what was that. Extremely rare Soul records in best possible condition are no longer in the USA, they are in Japan and UK for decades.
Years ago when digital (CDs) flooded the market most peope thought Vinyl is garbage, dead format of music etc. They are still terribly wrong and high demand on vinyl is a proof.
Digital is free, you don’t have to pay anything if all you need is a good playlist, all records are on youtube for free. In higher resolution (if needed) people can pay a bit for subscription to streaming. BUT why so many people love vinyl and willing to pay for each record more than you pay for access to entire digital library on some popular streaming services for years!?
@goofyfoot If you feel that strongly right now about the vinyl gestalt, you might sell just the turntable and phono section but KEEP THE VINYL. 200 LPs won't take up that much space. Just box well and keep in storage. Later if you decide to get back into LPs you'll still have them and you can just buy new hardware. But selling the LPs would mean, if you decided to get another TT, going back onto the hunt to find the favored ones again, if you can find them, and at likely higher prices and/or as re-pressings.Best of luck with your operation.
If you feel that vinyl is over rated, than you must be doing something wrong...when you get it right, there is no comparison. Ill take a bit of noise to get the warm easy flowing organic naturalness and tubey magic of vinyl. Digital is too sterile sounding to my ears. To be quite honest, most of my records play without much noise at all, very quiet. Analog is a very involving listen. However, it does require work, but I like the challenge.
OK, now I understand what you said, and asked, better than initially.
Not comparing Mono to Stereo, it's just that the former thrill of the hunt and find is gone, AND you are streaming happily.
SO, why keep the Vinyl rig?
I now say, keep the LP's, sell the equipment, get the surgery.
IF you ever go back to vinyl, I highly recommend you go for a TT with 2 tonearms, have Mono and Stereo available instantly.
btw, it was pointed out here, and I find is true: they sound better if you play your Mono LP's thru only one speaker.
The improvements of a Mono cartridge and now a single speaker, is the improvement in the distinction of individual instruments, not imaging, but awareness of the Trombone, trumpet, ...
For me, and I have to suspect others, part of the fun of these older LP's is to hear the greats when they were young, their development thru time, thru various collaborations, the development of what bacame their signature sound ...
I'll say it again for others who have not heard good Mono: the engineering and recording techniques in the late 40's and early 50's were quite good. All the great mono equipment, speaker systems developed after WWII were not to reproduce noise, there is a lot of great mono music!
You'll regret it deeply and for years. That you're asking and not already selling probably tells you that. If you need the money for surgery, and you're selling for that reason, it indicates you will not be readily able to replace the items once lost. It's always easy to take things for granted.
Keep in mind real sale values versus asking prices, seller fees, items randomly selling for less than going rate, shipping and packing costs, risks of seller complaint. Profit is not sheer, and not always to be counted upon.
Debates about formats inevitably are silly. Each has something to offer which another does not. And some aspects of sound are readily measurable, or captured in measurements commonly used, and others are not. E.g., timbre. Any analysis of one medium's superiority over another ends up being mechanical and reductive.
Hi Goofyfoot I have seen what your problem is and can solve it for you. You say:
"shopping for arcane mono classical and jazz vinyl
." and:
" Better soundstage, outstanding separation and position of instruments,"
You're listening to the vinyl in mono and the digital in stereo. Fix that and you'll soon be back on track. No need for expensive brain surgery or to sell your Thorens. Indeed, you should get a better turntable.
reubent, I came across the name goofyfoot by a joke that I had made to my friend that involved Desonex. Hard to explain exactly but my friend named his band Goofyfoot and they played at the old Sudsy Malones in Corryville. I grew up in Hartwell and went to SCAP downtown. Then eventually moved to the Clifton gaslight area and now live in Northside. Send me a private post and I’ll get back to you.
Do not sell. Vinyl has its place & satisfies nostalgia. But also be aware that it will never be as convenient and as good as digital. There is a place for both, for people who understand and appreciate the shortcomings of both.
"...dealers who purchased a warehouse of record at that time become millionaires in 15 years..."
What money is that in? If Dollars, Euros, or even British Pounds, it is not that lucrative of an enterprise. About 66 000 a year. Some 5000 a month. Barely over Tekton Moab. Not calculating that those dealers had to purchase a warehouse, too, to keep those records for all those years. Selling tons of records for that money (170 of some money a day, every day for 15 years) means you are packing and mailing all day long for full 15 years. Really, not that good of an investment.
"Digital sucks!"
Definitely! See what can be written on these devious computers.
With a user name like "Goofyfoot", did you grow up snowboarding at Perfect North Slopes? I'm a Cinci guy. Lived in Hyde Park and East Walnut Hills for years. Now live in Terrace Park.
I wonder if people realize how silly they sound when they go on vinyl (or other) rants. I can't relate to people who get so worked up emotionally that logic goes out the window.
Digital streaming can't replace original vinyl records.
Digital can't replace physical object.
Music from the past originally pressed on vinyl (tapes, cassettes etc) before digital was invented. This is
Crème de la crème
of analog.
There for a time in the 90's when records cost nothing, dealers who purchased a warehouse of record at that time become millionaires in 15 years. Now record collecting is a lifestyle and an expensive hobby.
When someone keep telling about digital streaming like an alternative to vinyl records I think for such person music is ....
1) Something originally recorded digitally (which is definitely not all the great music recorded prior to the 80s).
2) Just something playing on the background.
3) Cheap or almost free way to get music online.
A person who ignore analog (records, tapes etc) is a "normal person", while vinyl lovers are a bit crazy about their hobby. I like crazy people.
I grew up visiting and hearing performances at the College Conservatory of Music, which my paternal grandparents graduated from. The Tokyo String Quartet in residence, the Juilliard String Quartet, student and faculty recitals, etc... I’ve also spent many an evening at Music Hall listening to the CSO. Also, I lived in Paris and Koln and made use of the cultural advantages there. From my experience, no recorded music, despite the format, sounds like hearing music played and sung live. I will say however that with my stereo and a recently recorded cd, that I can experience a performance that will bring me closer to that live experience than I’ve ever experienced before from a recording. Hopefully, it will just keep on getting better.
I don’t even know how much to ask for the equipment or whether someone would even take an interest in it. Any ideas out there?
The main question is WHY someone should buy it from YOU and not from many other dealers or private collectors with reputation (good return policy or even paypal buyers protection), all these stuff available online. It’s not easy to sell vintage analog gear.
Probably if you can offer your gear for lower price or if your gear is in immaculate condition (with og boxes, docs etc). Otherwise who need a used cartridges and turntables from unknown seller with no feedback online ? Or you expect cash and local pickup ?
Same about your record collection, remember if you will sell the whole collection they will pay you very low price per record.
Anyway, even if you will sell all your gear, I hope you can buy it again, probably you can’t buy your record collection even if you want to.
What is the problem? If you want to sell then just try to sell it (it can take a long time), maybe it will be impossible and you will find different solution.
I think that anyone getting rid of a great source is a mistake because there is a lot of fun in the hunt for vinyl and the fact that it is a physical medium and you can get so much music that is not on digital nor will it ever be.
First off - yea get the surgery, but afterwards, give mono another chance. I have the AT 33 mono and it’s a fine cart - excellent for the money, but you need to step up to get the best out of mono. Mono soundstage is forward and back, up and down. It doesn’t surprise me a digital stereo setup beats mono - it’s easier to pull off. For mono the room must be perfect. For jazz - look into a Hana SL mono or a Miyajima. Also, a lot of pre-1957 is still using a larger stylus. The AT 33 mono is best with later repro’s or 60s mono garage. I wouldn’t give up on mono - it’s worth the effort.
I would bet that we older audiophiles spent more time enjoying live music played by humans using real musical instruments than those who consider digital superior.
I grew up playing music in the middle of school orchestras. Surrounded by flutes, trumpets, baritones (which I played), french horns, violins, cellos, tubas, tympani, oboes and snare drums for many years (11 to be exact). When I hear instruments reproduced on an audio system, I can quickly tell whether they're convincing or not.
Vinyl does the best job of doing that, as long as the turntable/arm/cartridge combo is up to the task. Therein lies the rub. It's expensive to get great vinyl playback.
Someday in the future, I may have the possibility of picking up a nice reel to reel in order to play those $600.00 Analogue Production tape releases. By the way, who is manufacturing reel to reel tapes anymore?
When you're old and poor and don't want to pay streaming fees you'll want your vinyl. Or if the internet is down. Or your might just have more time on your hands when you're old and enjoy the tactile aspects of physical media and reading the cover art etc.
Septoplasty. I actually appreciate the resolution in mono, which is why I opted to keep it simple and keep stereo out of the mix. The other thing is that the Thorens tonearm is the weakest link and installing only a mono cartridge means that I don’t rely on the Thorens tonearm for azimuth alignment.
If you're considering a uvulectomy, save your money. I had one 15 years ago and it didn't help much with sleep.
If that's not what it is, I can't give you any advice. It's a shame your analog and digital systems are apples vs. oranges. There is little debate amongst most serious audiophiles that good vinyl playback is best.
Yeah, vinyl is dead. You must dispose of your front-end equipment, but I'll be happy to get all those records out of your listening room. And I won't even charge you for helping you get rid of them.
Goofyfoot sorry you can't really say your hearing your setup to it's full potential only listening in mono. I would say get a stereo cartridge but I get the impression you really just want to sell it and move on. Do what's best for you obviously but you haven't given vinyl a fair shake.
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