Is It Time To Sell My Vinyl Rig?

I grew up visiting and hearing performances at the College Conservatory of Music, which my paternal grandparents graduated from. The Tokyo String Quartet in residence, the Juilliard String Quartet, student and faculty recitals, etc... I’ve also spent many an evening at Music Hall listening to the CSO. Also, I lived in Paris and Koln and made use of the cultural advantages there. From my experience, no recorded music, despite the format, sounds like hearing music played and sung live. I will say however that with my stereo and a recently recorded cd, that I can experience a performance that will bring me closer to that live experience than I’ve ever experienced before from a recording. Hopefully, it will just keep on getting better.

@goofyfoot  - Are you from Cincinnati? 

Digital streaming can't replace original vinyl records.

Digital can't replace physical object.

Music from the past originally pressed on vinyl (tapes, cassettes etc) before digital was invented. This is Crème de la crème of analog.

There for a time in the 90's when records cost nothing, dealers who purchased a warehouse of record at that time become millionaires in 15 years. Now record collecting is a lifestyle and an expensive hobby. 

When someone keep telling about digital streaming like an alternative to vinyl records I think for such person music is .... 

1) Something originally recorded digitally (which is definitely not all the great music recorded prior to the 80s). 

2) Just something playing on the background.

3)  Cheap or almost free way to get music online.  


A person who ignore analog (records, tapes etc) is a "normal person", while vinyl lovers are a bit crazy about their hobby. I like crazy people. 

Digital sucks! 



  

I wonder if people realize how silly they sound when they go on vinyl (or other) rants. I can't relate to people who get so worked up emotionally that logic goes out the window.

reubent, yes I still live in Cincinnati, though I spent a lot of time while growing up in Mass.

With a user name like "Goofyfoot", did you grow up snowboarding at Perfect North Slopes? I'm a Cinci guy. Lived in Hyde Park and East Walnut Hills for years. Now live in Terrace Park.

"Digital can’t replace physical object."

Hmmm, ever heard of video games?

"...dealers who purchased a warehouse of record at that time become millionaires in 15 years..."

What money is that in? If Dollars, Euros, or even British Pounds, it is not that lucrative of an enterprise. About 66 000 a year. Some 5000 a month. Barely over Tekton Moab. Not calculating that those dealers had to purchase a warehouse, too, to keep those records for all those years. Selling tons of records for that money (170 of some money a day, every day for 15 years) means you are packing and mailing all day long for full 15 years. Really, not that good of an investment.

"Digital sucks!"

Definitely! See what can be written on these devious computers.

Do not sell.
Vinyl has its place & satisfies nostalgia.
But also be aware that it will never be as convenient and as good as digital.
There is a place for both, for people who understand and appreciate the shortcomings of both.

reubent, I came across the name goofyfoot by a joke that I had made to my friend that involved Desonex. Hard to explain exactly but my friend named his band Goofyfoot and they played at the old Sudsy Malones in Corryville. I grew up in Hartwell and went to SCAP downtown. Then eventually moved to the Clifton gaslight area and now live in Northside. Send me a private post and I’ll get back to you.

Hi Goofyfoot
I have seen what your problem is and can solve it for you.  You say:

"shopping for arcane mono classical and jazz vinyl ."   and:

" Better soundstage, outstanding separation and position of instruments,"

You're listening to the vinyl in mono and the digital in stereo.
Fix that and you'll soon be back on track.
No need for expensive brain surgery or to sell your Thorens.
Indeed, you should get a better turntable.

No fee.

Wow, dude.  200 whole records.  You've really gone all in.  I think I passed that by 1975.  Go ahead and sell.  

You'll regret it deeply and for years. That you're asking and not already selling probably tells you that. If you need the money for surgery, and you're selling for that reason, it indicates you will not be readily able to replace the items once lost. It's always easy to take things for granted.

Keep in mind real sale values versus asking prices, seller fees, items randomly selling for less than going rate, shipping and packing costs, risks of seller complaint. Profit is not sheer, and not always to be counted upon.

Debates about formats inevitably are silly. Each has something to offer which another does not. And some aspects of sound are readily measurable, or captured in measurements commonly used, and others are not. E.g., timbre. Any analysis of one medium's superiority over another ends up being mechanical and reductive.

Choose between health and any material do-hickey? What's to decide?

OK, now I understand what you said, and asked, better than initially.

Not comparing Mono to Stereo, it's just that the former thrill of the hunt and find is gone, AND you are streaming happily.

SO, why keep the Vinyl rig?

I now say, keep the LP's, sell the equipment, get the surgery.

IF you ever go back to vinyl, I highly recommend you go for a TT with 2 tonearms, have Mono and Stereo available instantly. 

btw, it was pointed out here, and I find is true: they sound better if you play your Mono LP's thru only one speaker.

The improvements of a Mono cartridge and now a single speaker, is the improvement in the distinction of individual instruments, not imaging, but awareness of the Trombone, trumpet, ...

For me, and I have to suspect others, part of the fun of these older LP's is to hear the greats when they were young, their development thru time, thru various collaborations, the development of what bacame their signature sound ...

I'll say it again for others who have not heard good Mono: the engineering and recording techniques in the late 40's and early 50's were quite good. All the great mono equipment, speaker systems developed after WWII were not to reproduce noise, there is a lot of great mono music! 

If you feel that vinyl is over rated, than you must be doing something wrong...when you get it right, there is no comparison. Ill take a bit of noise to get the warm easy flowing organic naturalness and tubey magic of vinyl. Digital is too sterile sounding to my ears. To be quite honest, most of my records play without much noise at all, very quiet. Analog is a very involving listen. However, it does require work, but I like the challenge. 

@goofyfoot
If you feel that strongly right now about the vinyl gestalt, you might sell just the turntable and phono section but KEEP THE VINYL. 200 LPs won't take up that much space. Just box well and keep in storage. Later if you decide to get back into LPs you'll still have them and you can just buy new hardware. But selling the LPs would mean, if you decided to get another TT, going back onto the hunt to find the favored ones again, if you can find them, and at likely higher prices and/or as re-pressings.Best of luck with your operation.

Happy listening.

@glupson

Ever heard about RARE records?

There are American SOUL 45s from the late 60s - early 80s that goes typically for £300 each nowadays, when sellers spread their sales lists by fax (in the 90’s) some of those records were priced at £5 - £30 max. There are records that goes for £1000+ each!

In the US look for RecordsByMail.com - the largest online retailer of used, vintage and collectible vinyl. The man behind this warehouse filled with millions of records is Mr. Craig Moerer (respected dealer and collector).

In UK it’s John Manship and his raresoulman.co.uk

I’m talking about records that you can’t afford, but record collectors are happy to bid on it (auctions). Pressed on private independent labels in 500 - 3000 copies they have a cult statis today on the Soul Scene. Americans never rated their own music as high as collectors from UK, Europe and Japan. Tons of records were exported from America before your local dealers realized what was that. Extremely rare Soul records in best possible condition are no longer in the USA, they are in Japan and UK for decades.

Years ago when digital (CDs) flooded the market most peope thought Vinyl is garbage, dead format of music etc. They are still terribly wrong and high demand on vinyl is a proof.

Digital is free, you don’t have to pay anything if all you need is a good playlist, all records are on youtube for free. In higher resolution (if needed) people can pay a bit for subscription to streaming. BUT why so many people love vinyl and willing to pay for each record more than you pay for access to entire digital library on some popular streaming services for years!?

I see a majority of responses for keeping the vinyl setup. However that doesn’t quite solve the @goofyfoot problem of needing $1K for his surgery.

I wonder if all of us who hope goofyfoot keeps the TT and phono would be open to the idea of raising $1K? I will be happy to make a donation for our fellow audiophile in need of surgery so he can breathe better, enjoy music and live a healthy life.

Hopefully if any one else is open to doing the same to help the OP out, please contact him privately. I suggest OP to open up an account with ‘go fund me.com’.

https://www.gofundme.com/sign-up

Have you tried Breathe Right strips (or a generic of such)?

DeKay

a2d, If you find vinyl so laughable, why are you here at all?  I am not offended by your opinion at all, but why? I don't feel the urge to go on a digital forum and make jokes about RBCD.

Hi OP,

+ 1 @lalitk

Great Idea. Happy to help fellow Audiogoner in need.  Good luck with your surgery.

Sleep Apnea can kill so get a solution that works.

Do I follow this correctly?

Comparing stereo digital to mono analogue, right? 

Interesting comparison. 

Some old vinyl is just that... poor mastering, poor recording process, and worse, too many pressings per... I have a few direct disks that stun me regularly with their presence, detail, and sheer impact. 
My secondary-favs are some digital recordings (there were a few great ones) that were then sent to vinyl with love and care. 
I want a better streamer/DAC also, but how I listen to that source is vastly different than vinyl. 

Just to clarify a bit, I would to some degree regret selling my table and phono amp. Additionally, I'm not comparing mono analogue to stereo digital, rather I'm saying that the quality of my digital front end is so good, that I might not miss playing vinyl all that much. I am limited based on the quality of tonearm, cartridge, etc... If I had the flagship ASR phono stage, a six thousand dollar table and a three thousand dollar cartridge, the competition between digital and analogue would be tighter. Would I prefer to have something versus not having something; that answer to that would likely always be yes.

chakster,

"There are records that goes for £1000+ each!"

I took that into account. That would be 1000 records for a million, assuming each record is priced that high. Over 15 years, it is one record sold every six days, or so. So a bit more than one a week. That would certainly make it for less demanding work with packing and shipping. If that were a case, that warehouse for 1000 records would not be that large. Slightly larger closet, if even that much. Maybe "warecloset" instead of "warehouse".

Of course, if a person bought real warehouse full of records, let’s say 100 000 of them to sift through and look for those that could be sold for £1000 each, it would make sense, but it would bring us back to a lots of work.

Assuming that a person works from Monday to Friday for those 15 years, she/he would have to check about 25 records a day. For a work day of 8 hours, slighly more than 3 records an hour. Slightly less than 20 minutes per record.

During that time, a person can pick those expensive ones and sell them, assuming they sell as soon as they are found in the warehouse. Packing and mailing them will take some tome away from checking what is in those 100 000 records so it will have to be more than 3 per hour checked.

Still, it does not seem to be that great of a business plan as records bought must have cost some money, too. Not to go into storage space, advertising, etc. And, of course, in my example no millionaire paid any tax anywhere. For that, to become a millionaire, a person has to increase all the above numbers by whatever tax rate is.

I don’t know what are you trying to say here @glupson ?
Only ebay score of Craig Moerer is 229 261 ...
Even if each record sold for $10 it’s already over $ 2 000 000 ....

Apart from what they sell direct on their own website, also on discogs with another 19636 deals since 2008. Craig and his Records By Mail offers one of the most comprehensive selections of vinyl LPs and 45s available anywhere. Housed in an 8,000 square foot warehouse that currently holds 2 million records, Craig and his talented, dedicated staff at Records By Mail serve music lovers in more than 60 countries.

You’d better watch his interview if you want to know more about business model or to see a warehouse full of vintage records. He’s been doing it for entire life. They travel all over USA to buy collections (vinyl lovers dies too).

I know very well what i’m talking about, my examples of the price tags for rare soul records is not even maximum, there are northern soul records that cost over $5k each, believe it or not buy they sell those too on auctions. There is a huge and very strong scene for this type of music worldwide. And I have to mention that rare American records are much cheaper in the USA than in UK, Europe or Japan. 

Vinyl is priceless, digital is free.

Even if a reissue of the rare soul record available for £5 it will not affect the price for an original press and it can be 100 times as much.

It’s a whole other world that most audiophiles do not understand at all when they discuss digital versus analog! It’s a cultural difference, not sound quality.

When people discuss only sound quality they demonstrate their narrow mind.

Vinyl still alive not only because of the quality, it’s a culture, people love to go to the stores, flea markets... searching for records because it’s cool, it’s a life style. They can discover music, unknown stuff on vintage vinyl.

It’s not nostalgia, because young people are crazy about this process too, they are looking for record NOT because of the sound quality, they already have digital, they are born in digital era, and they want analog.

Maybe for retired people vinyl is nostalgia, but people under 30 are into vinyl too (all over the world).

This is why streaming can’t replace the analog, never!

Millercarbon; True DAT!

“Vinyl is priceless, digital is free.”
“This is why streaming can’t replace the analog, never! ”

@chakster 

These statements are so inane....but then again as you’ve pointed out in your previous post, “vinyl lovers are a bit crazy about their hobby”.  

chakster,

You got me. I was really just playing with simple numbers to see how good of a business it would really be. I had no firm agenda or message behind it.

Now, you made me think what the moral of the story/calculations would be. I think I would want to say "There are more efficient ways to become a millionaire". Someone may like it, but 66 000 of whatever money a year is a very slow way to a millionaire. The trick is that being a millionaire is not what it used to be. Take U.S.A. as an example...

• Full-time working men in 2019 had median earnings of $57,456

66 000 a year is less than 20% more than that median income.

I am sure examples you gave have done well, but it is a lots of fine work, apparently it has to be a number of people/employees involved, organization, etc. And with all that effort, 15 years and lots of luck to get above median earnings. For the love of it, a person can get lucky and enjoy, but as a career choice, there are more reliable ways to become a millionaire.

What Is the Average American Income in 2021? - PolicyAdvice

One factor in this debate I rarely see discussed is HOW folks listen to the music.  Are they sitting still and focusing or busy doing other things?  The way I listen is a solo endeavor - it's not really socially acceptable behavior I can share with friends present, i.e., I sit alone in the sweet spot with my head inclined toward the floor to get the best imaging.

Do I need psychoanalysis?  Yikes!

"Do I need psychoanalysis? Yikes!"

Maybe to start with a pet first?

I sold my vinyl outfit and replaced it with leather, wait, wrong forum.

Vinyl: Massive steps to press a piece of vinyl then goes on a little platter where a tiny little needle picks up the information stamped into a groove and every little snap, pop, glitch will remind you.... its f'ing vinyl. Highly over rated..... sorry...... I sold all of that crap years ago and don't need to go into a long dissertation about the superiority of the proper setup in the digital world. Sell it all and then if you want to go back to an analog source...... Pre recorded reel to reel tape is the new vinyl. All of the analog sound you might be looking for without all of the vinyle audible wear and tear. Expensive, but true.

mikekollar

Vinyl: Massive steps to press a piece of vinyl then goes on a little platter where a tiny little needle picks up the information stamped into a groove and every little snap, pop, glitch will remind you.... its f'ing vinyl ...

You've obviously been traumatized by exposure to really bad LP playback. I'm sorry, but it happens.

Chakster wrote, "And I have to mention that rare American records are much cheaper in the USA than in UK, Europe or Japan."  From my experience shopping for LPs in Tokyo, I have to agree, and I would add that the LPs need not be very "rare" in order to sell in Tokyo for ~2X more than US prices, comparing to for example to used LP prices at the Capital Audio Fest, which I attend with some regularity.  Last time I was in Tokyo, I was shopping at Disc Union in the Ochanomizu section of Tokyo. I have been buying from DU for more than a decade, ever since our son moved permanently to Tokyo and I started making annual or semi-annual visits.  Two years ago this month (no trip last year due to pandemic), I was standing in DU holding a mint condition Chris Connor mono LP on the Bethlehem label that I realized was selling for about $25.  I know for a fact that I can buy such LPs at the CAF from any of my favorite vendors, for about $8 to $10.  Same situation for Julie London, June Christy, and some others I was searching for that day.  Anything from any of our greatest artists, like Miles, Dizzy, etc, will be $25 and up at DU.  Not nearly as appreciated by US market.  This says more about our culture, or lack thereof, than it does about economic differences.

A small private record shop in Paris had a Carmen McRay “Alfie” mono pressing on Mainstream records and they were asking 45 EUROS. I pain 8 dollars for my copy here in the states. I asked the owner why the price was so high and he mentioned that it was a hard to find title. 

Sorry, Carmen McRae for those of you who care.

I’d fight to the end for vinyl. I’d much rather suffer the fate of The Black Night before ever considering giving up my vinyl:

https://youtu.be/ZmInkxbvlCs

@goofyfoot if your vinyl collection is only around 200 LPs, you have already decided some time ago on which medium you like to listen to. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. People into vinyl, without almost any effort, will amass a collection of thousands easily and passionately. It matters not-at-all! You don't have enough interest in it to worry about.

Well, brain tumor removal (or saving your sight, etc.) or turntable.  What a dilemma!  But!  How much actual surgery can selling an old Thorens really pay for?  Maybe a tooth extraction?

So, you prefer your digital setup, only have 200 albums and need funds for surgery. It appears you've already made your decision, sell the vinyl rig, get the surgery!

I'd keep the albums in case you get back into vinyl in future.

This answer is from another question on a similar subject >
I knew someone who owned a wooden powerboat i.e. >
https://www.classicwoodenboatplans.com/shop/barrelback-custom-19
He said either you get it or you don’t. Of course, fiberglass boats are infinitely more practical & convenient. All it takes is desensitizing yourself to the depth of beauty represented by the living thing, wood is when raised to such an art form. All the sheer, enveloping, penetrating complexities & nuance - once you begin to surrender to seeing it, you’ve opened up entirely new vistas in yourself.
Yes, I’m leading up to saying it’s the same with vinyl vs digital (in a well-sorted system much more so of course) but the mechanics of it are never that simple to those, intent on being in denial. It works like this: If you try & listen to the differences you’ll definitely hear them - the tricky part to digital lovers/apologists whatever, is connecting that to their emotions. The human imagination is so amazing/powerful etc. that it allows us to override that connection. G-d bless you if you’ve convinced yourself that makes you happy. It’s an accommodation that is as convenient as the guy who persuades himself the surplus beauty of wooden boats is irrelevant. I have a Meridian 808 cd player AND a record player. I’m not a chronic liar who forgets what the truth actually is. I still enjoy my digital but it’s missing stuff vinyl has, no question. If you tell yourself you don’t need it/can’t hear it, that becomes your reality soon enough. Whatever floats your proverbial boat, regardless of what it’s made of. I’ll defend anyone’s right to look at Da Vincis with dark sunglasses on. Calling it the same as w/o, not so much though.

It appears that I’m getting hammered on about not collecting more records than the two hundred that I own. In my defense, the vintage vinyl that I own, which typically dates from around 1957-ish are all in very good to pristine condition. I have some hard to acquire mono vinyl that still have vinyl shards around the edge from when they were cut. It is difficult to grow a collection under these standards. I do own new vinyl reissues from labels like Analogphonic, Speakers Corner, etc... and while these are new and sealed when bought, more often than not, a vintage copy is all that’s available. I have the same standards whenever I purchase 7 inch 45 rpm’s. So yes, I don’t own two thousand records but where it comes to finding difficult, vintage, pristine vinyl, I think I have a respectable collection. That being said, I’m pretty sure that I’ll keep my collection and possibly the Thorens but sell my ASR phono preamp. When my trust fund kicks in, I’ll shop for the high end ASR phono pre amp and I’ll add a nice tonearm and mono cartridge to the Thorens. I’m just wondering how low I will have to go in order to move the phono stage.

You can always check auction finals at popsike.com 
It will help you to realize current value if you have anything rare. 

Have you considered stereo records? 

@goofyfoot I can only speak for myself, started this last year to purchase vinyl as I only had about 30 to 40 total in 2019, I think I’m at 400 give or take now, they are not hammering you it is just that apparently when we value vinyl and we get obsessed with it we developed some FOMO and we get in a quest to get as much as we can, but for this you need to appreciate it and respect the setup and things you do to implement it, it is a lot of work to get it right

I come from a very good digital rig (which I still use) and the convenience and the quality is there so I know exactly how you feel but vinyl could sound (and this is the problem I have describing these things) could sound so simple, relaxed but natural at the same time, it is different that digital and hard to explain.

My first 40 vinyl were new pressings (all or most from digital masters) my 41st vinyl in 2016 or so was a Wish you Were Here UK pressing from 70s I think, there I realized not all vinyl was created equal.

Last night I listened for the 1st time to a recently purchased Shades of Deep Purple 1st pressing (Japan) near mint, no noise, very very dissapointing sound in detail or dynamics, not your typical expected result. Then I played a recently purchased 1st pressing of Houses of the Holy, when The Rain Song started I got a tear falling down my cheek, not even when I was 12 listening to that specific record I had heard or experienced what I heard last night, to me that record (of my favorite band) is priceless because the emotion it conveyed.

I’m not saying do this or the other, just relating my experience, if you have a good digital then you need an equal quality vinyl rig and actual good vinyl pressings (not from the loudness wars) to compare, if you don’t have the commitment it is absolutely fine, I don’t criticize but I think it is what others are trying to say above.

Good luck man on whatever you do.

Oh one more thing and this is an exception I think to the rule.
If you listen to music from 90’s, 2000’s and modern pop and such then I tend to agree (since this was recorded digitally) that digital most likely could provide better results than vinyl. Digital is science and with a good system with good reconstruction filters, dithering, modulators and such you will achieve outstanding results.
If OTOH you listen to rock, swing, blues and such from the 80’s back then with vinyl you could experience more natural sound than digital, notice I say natural, digital pragmatism states there are no distortions if well implemented on good digital and there will be some distortion on vinyl due to not exact setup, equipment, phono stage and such.
Separate topic with digital sources, I use Tidal and Qobuz, I resample to 1411 PCM and / or 256DSD sometimes, audio from the 70’s Led Zep for example, I don’t like the new released remasters, don’t know why I just don’t like what I hear, I prefer the Redbook from older digital editions, when resampled (or upsampled like others say) to me it sounds better. Is it colored? I don’t know, maybe, but it sounds right.