Is it all in my head??

If you can't pick it out with the lights out, it doesn't mater if your a scientist or "open minded" and driven by  subjectivity. It is the same result at a different cost.

Vodka? They have tests for that, too:

https://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=588345420

I guess there are sepratate definitions for scitentists and subjectivists for a reason.

I wonder why people with an opposing opinions are quickly labeled as trolls. Also, people who hear a "big difference" in the sound of cables, always ignore simple tests when it comes to choosing cable a from b. Any test that supports hearing the difference in sound, becomes invalid because it's a test. 

At this point, I'm ambivalent about cables and power cords.  I keep hoping to hear a change in my system if I swap cables or power cords, but I'm never quite sure I hear anything different in the sound.  I don't have an inexpensive system, and have cables and power cords from Purist Audio, Shunyata, Tara Labs, and at least three other companies.   But, unfortunately, I really never hear a difference.  Yet, I persist in trying things in hopes that I may hear something different and, to that end, just ordered balanced XLR cables to connect the pre-amp and amp in hopes I might hear a change.  

To your question - if you hear a difference, even if it is because of confirmation bias - does that matter?  Apparently, you think something has changed.  If it makes the music you're listening to "better" in some way - enjoy the difference.

Happy New Year All

Normally I wouldn't knock a manufacture but since one keeps being mentioned as being good I have to disagree .
Pangea did not sound good to myself or a friend ( who rebuilds guitar tube amps ) , that includes both the power cords
( we tried both 14 and 9 gauge ) and the power outlets .
Pangea has 3 grades 
We did an experiment with 4 different outlet manufactures  and
the Pangea lowest grade  came in 3rd .
So like all equipment and cables/interconnects what might work for some doesn't work for all . 

Thank you guys. " But sometimes the information they provide is presented as fact ". Yes, they present it, but they are not proving it. They are the ones looking for proof, for reasoning, for scientific data, as to why we are claiming sonic differences. Fact ! I know what my ears / brain tell me. Lizzy, Geoff, myself and others, will not be fooled into the " could I be imagining it " camp. Which is a point I made. Ignore them, because, they will continue with their pursuit. They question our hearing ? How about our taste buds. Vodka ( my go to ), each brand having a distinct taste. Is this, the fact I can taste the differences between Absolute, Grey Goose, Tito's, Smirnoff, etc. real, or my imagination. Now, in reality, I can probably be fooled into mistaking 1 brand for another. Sight, smell, taste, touch, hear. Hearing, is definitely my strongest and most developed sense. Enjoy ! MrD.

Great post MrD! I especially like the way you described how  you settled on horns. I am not a horn person as my journey and preferences took me in another direction.

I would ignore the naysayers (and they are not all created equal) but sometimes the information they provide is presented as fact and may influence other enthusiasts perhaps discouraging them from trying new cables and products. 

+1 mrdecibel. It is nice to hears the sincere comments from ones like you and elizebeth and others. Not letting the other negative comments be responded to, because it changes the focus on the fine exchange of good thoughts. Just ignore the negative posts, as it always takes the discussion in a different direction.
And for the OP. Yes it is all in our head That’s where we perceive things, in our head. So it’s ok if there is no technical reason for what you hear. There are qualified individuals that say we cannot measure everything we hear. Just enjoy it. And thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Elizabeth, it is easier to simply ignore the naysayers. I enjoy your posts, and so much appreciate your enthusiasm as a music listener. You, I and others are enjoying our money spent with after market power cords ( I still enjoy building them ), and you, I and others know what we are hearing. This is no different than hearing the difference between 2 different tubes. I wonder what would happen if these same naysayers went on a tube thread ( of which there are many ) and ranted that the differences heard between 2 tubes ( in the same circuit, of course ), might actually be in the imagination of the listeners. I really do not know why these naysayers keep at it, or why these differences we hear exist ( electrically or mechanically speaking ). I had my 1st system before some of these naysayers were born. I developed a love for this hobby. I placed myself in the business because I loved it. I trained my ears, and brain, to listen to the plethora of gear available, and to decipher various aspects of recorded music reproduction. I was a singer in a short lived band, and spent many years in a chorus. This, too, was a great learning experience, as it helped me ( in my teens and early twenties ) with the greater understanding of imaging, spatiality, depth, and the recreation of soundstage. It is when I knew, " dynamics ", was an area of sound reproduction that mattered a great deal to me. So, I have owned horns for over 40 years ( and oh, so much more ). My point ? They can say all they want about our imaginations. I will ignore them, their ignorance, and their fallibility when it comes to high end audio. Enjoy ! MrD.

A few weeks ago, I removed the power cord of my Ayre amp and replugged it into the socket...about 6 feet away.  Suddenly the system sounded MUCH better.  ....went the other direction and plugged the amp into a socket on the farther side, and it closed down and just sounded "very good" again.  All three sockets had Meistro sockets installed. 

True Elizabeth, but Walkerland is ground zero for elderly ignorance .When I was trapped there the Journal ran a piece on their first big poll back in "33 . Adolph got 29 % of vote in Berlin and 40% in MKE .Not that I believed it myself , 40 % was surely way low .

prof,
If you ever want to experiment a bit, try an audio grade outlet. Pangea makes a good one for $100, available from audio advisor. It was a great improvement in my system, for the money. 

Sitting here, looking over at the rig--that PK-10 just *looks* cool .. maybe I'll leave it at that :)

Now Geoff and Elizabeth, in the thread "which beveridge do you drink while listening" (paraphrase) no responses mentioned milk.
My guess is that the "naysayer's" response came from either a troll in a grammar school cafeteria or an actual E from the NASA control room on their milk and cookie break......

That’s a bit of a Strawman argument regarding audiophiles and friends describing prof’s sound as “so real it’s spooky” since, uh, you know, most audiophiles are not good judges of what’s real and what’s not. Oh, did I just question another person’s hearing ability? My bad. That Strawman argument is closely related to another common naysayer argument, “My engineer friends laughed so hard when I told them about audiophile power cords milk squirted out of their noses.” Everything is relative. One man’s spooky is another man’s ho, hum. No offense to anyone, as usual.

 Exactly! And those of us who question our/and others ability to hear the differences between power cords are not the ones on the ego trip as we are admitting that we are susceptible to bias. 
@elizabeth.  I’m confused, I thought you insisted you can always hear the difference between power cords?? Your story reads as if you are saying people who claim they can hear the difference are on a massive ego trip because they cannot admit their senses may be fallible? 

boxer12

No audio grade outlets.  Until very recently no power conditioning at all. However I added some new equipment not long ago, which finally got me to redressing my wiring.   I found that a couple of Furman PST-8 SMP EVS power bars quite useful, especially their shape which makes the outlets more easily reachable for me.  Don’t mind whatever isolation/protection they may give the system as well.   Didn’t hear any change to my system after they went in.

elizabeth wrote:

—-“ So what was the problem? HIM. He could NOT accept HE was having trouble feeling anything in his feet. It HAD to be the car. Even telling him point blank.. Did not matter. ten minutes later it was the car...Sad. Some folks cannot get past the ego. “

Totally agree.  Some people’s ego seems so wedded to their subjective infallibility that they have trouble even imagining, let alone admitting, they COULD be wrong.

Those of is who proceed on the well justified assumption we could be wrong, find this very strange.  Finding out how we could be wrong, or if we are wrong, is a way of being open to learning.  I just find it odd that so many seem closed to this.

prof says
" Friends, including fellow audiophiles have described the sensation of hearing my systems as “spooky real” and are generally amazed.

BTW, this didn’t take any aftermarket power cables or expensive high end speaker cables/interconnects to achieve :)"

It sounds like you have a great system prof. Do you use any power conditioning or audio grade outlets? 

When a naysayer ( and I am being gentle here ) " suggests "and " implies ", over and over and over again, that those who do ( myself included ) hear differences in power cables, might be imagining it, I simply have to laugh. It has become a joke at this point. There is some kind of emotional high that they are needing to feed. They cannot accept a very simple fact. For some reason ( s ), they are not hearing it or unable to hear it. I admire those who have tried to listen, but do not hear it, until, they make claims that it is an imaginary hocus pocus for us who do. And the worst of them, are the ones who never try, and call hocus pocus. These threads have become comedic entertainment for me, and I no longer see any of this as serious exchanges of words or ideas. Let the psychobabble continue. Enjoy ! MrD.

Something good is coming out of this. It looks like we have a new definition of a naysayer. Someone who will argue until the cows come home. 🐄 🐄 🐄 Or, someone who will argue until he’s blue in the face. 🥶

Elizabeth 

Fair point!

However I’m used to seeing just that criticism lobbed at me and others here who are not calling you and others deluded idiots. I believe I’ve seen you impute this to my posts before as well.

So taking “the naysayers” to include me and some others who are skeptical didn’t seem like a stretch.


Of course if you point only to those who have said such things you aren’t referring to a straw man.   Problem is the accuracy of that claim can’t be taken for granted given how often I, and other skeptics here, have routinely been misrepresented and strawnanned.   I say something like “how did you determine it was a real effect vs imagined” and as is often seen here I get back something like “so you take me to be a deluded idiot??!!”

elizabeth wrote:

—- lTo me the worst problem is the naysayers often seem to think the folks who can hear the differences are deluded idiots.And make assumptions based on THAT premise.”


Thats only because you refuse to read what some of us *actually* say and you continue to carry around the false equivalence of “being in error” and “bias” with “being an idiot.”   It is precisely BECAUSE the brightest person in the room is susceptible to bias-error effects that it makes sense to consider that variable.

So long as you absolutely refuse to even try to understand this point, you will have yourself to blame for your irritation with your own straw man.

@roberjerman : " Now if someone snuck in overnight and replaced that new PC with the cheap original one (and you didn't notice), it is most likely that you would not hear any difference from the day before!"

" If PC's made a difference why are all the enthusiasts so unwilling to do this simple test?"

Not that I am or am not an enthusiast, but because I am not letting anyone near my stuff without me in the room and because the cops might shoot the sneaker.  ;^)

Some folks like those MBL Speakers. I don’t. I guess tastes vary. In fact I had the misfortune to be in the exhibit at CES right next to the MBL Room. Thump, thump, thump all day long. I did take the opportunity at some point to go next door to see what all the fuss was about. But I had to leave right away. The MBLs look impressive, I’ll give you that. Would an aftermarket power cord helped? Difficult to say, but it probably couldn’t have hurt. 

Seasons greetings! 🎄

Thanks @waltertexas

Again, that’s in incredible sounding system you heard.

As for the type of dimensionality and sonic “dissapearing” of the speakers - that’s something I’ve always favoured myself, and my speaker choices reflect it. I regularly get that effect from my Thiel, Waveform and especially my MBL omni speakers - an amazing dimensional sound field that seem utterly detached from the speakers. It even happens pretty easily with my little Spendor 3/5s.

All it really takes is decent speaker positioning. I tend to have my speakers well out from the back wall and closer to the listening position. Friends, including fellow audiophiles have described the sensation of hearing my systems as “spooky real” and are generally amazed.

BTW, this didn’t take any aftermarket power cables or expensive high end speaker cables/interconnects to achieve :)
Just good speakers and decent care for acoustics and positioning.

Cheers.

@prof : I came to this conclusion after hearing the entire system perform as a whole.  When I say everything matters, I mean everything in the room, including the room itself, diffusers, the exact speaker placement, chair placement, isolation racks, (and yes, even the cables).  It seems to have taken everything involved to create the detailed images I "saw" with my ears.  In fact, I couldn't even hear sound from the speakers when sitting in the listening position!  It was as if those speakers weren't making the sound and it was coming from a different dimension right above the amplifiers.  I cant even describe it, but i would guess if you went switching things all around, the portal to where the music was coming from would be closed and the sound would just come from the speakers (if that makes any sense).

Have a buddy play 10 songs for you blind.  Ones that you’re intimately familiar with.  Play each song twice.  Once with the upgraded cord, and another with the stock cord.

Pick your favorite.  If you somehow pick the upgraded cord even 75% of the time as your favorite, well then you’re either fairly lucky or truly can tell the difference.  My guess is you’d guess correctly about half the time.  

Yes.

The power to your system comes to it through hundreds of miles of wire owned by the utility company, but what wire you use in the last 2 feet will materially change it? Does this 2 feet of wire "add" something or "subtract" something from the power that enters your house?
The electricity then enters the internal wiring of your pre-amp/receiver and this addition/subtraction remains intact?

waltertexas

That listening experience sounds totally awesome.  Reminds me of when I got a private demo of the MBL flagship system.  Quite head turning!

Though I’m curious about this:

—-“After experiencing that, it is now my view that everything matters and that there is no end to this obsession.”

You mentioned you were an engineer.  I’m wondering how you determined from listening to that system that “everything makes a diference.”

As an engineer you would understand the importance of isolating the contributions of one part of a system vs another to determine what any particular part of the chain is contributing and to what degree *if any* it is contributing.   So I’m just wondering how you believe it follows from listening to (I presume) a system full of gear you are unfamiliar with that you understood the contributions of every bit to know “everything makes a difference.”

I hope you agree this is a reasonable question to ask. (?)

lol... i did not intend to ignite flames :P  (when ever did a cable comment not)

So, I was in NYC last week and stopped by innovative audio off 58th or so and Lex-i got to listen to an amazing system:  a pair of dan d'agostino relentless driving wilson alexx fed by an MSB reference DAC thru a  d'agostino momentum preamp.  let's just say this was a life changing experience.. for as large as those amps and speakers were, the sound was pinpoint perfect immersive and engaging (holographic even) and I never knew such an experience could be had in high end audio.  

It's one thing to read about it.. its another to spend an hour or so listening to over $1M in high end gear set up with perfection in an acoustically treated room.  After experiencing that, it is now my view that everything matters and that there is no end to this obsession.  

In the end, it all comes down to taste and what it is you are chasing.  For me, I am in love (currently) with dynamic range and power+clarity at low volumes--to this end, I feel the Kimber power kord added a net + to the value prop.

mrdecibel just can’t seem to help himself.

—- “given this thread some time, and I assure you, others will follow, as he has plenty of company.”

One could also talk about the characters who very predictably enter these threads to retread their usual list of swipes at those who haven’t accepted the claims about after market ac cables. Always with insults and name calling of course. It’s far easier to throw the word “troll” at someone than deal maturely with the points they have made.

And of course it comes with the usual self-serving “critique”: YOU don’t have the hearing and perceptual ability I have” and “YOU don’t have the super high quality system I have” and similar self-stroking.

So lets see how this goes....

—— “Why are so many of these trolls not willing to try some power cords ( they are inexpensive enough ). “

As I have detailed here: I’ve tried high end power cords (Shunyata and others). In fact, I’ve done comparisons in a more carefully controlled manner than I bet mrdecibel ever has. So, that critique fails.

——“My guesses are, they know their hearing is bad ( from being in bands, etc. ); do not want to find out, or admit, their hearing is bad;”

Nope.

I’ve been protecting my hearing with earplugs at really loud events since the early 90’s. I have had my hearing tested regularly for years. The audiologist always remark about how good my hearing is for my age (now 55). My hearing often “measured as” someone 12 to 15 years younger in terms of linearity and frequency extension.

Next....

——“ their equipment is old and do not have iec inlets; “

I’ve owned plenty of equipment with removable ac cords. Have used some of those to test ac cords.

Next....

—- they have an " acute " shortage of experience in listening for fine details;

hmmm

I’ve been obsessed with sound since childhood, grew up with a high end system (starting in the 80’s, KEF 105.2 speakers, Carver amplification), have been heavily in to high end since the early 90’s, have done all sorts of live vs reproduced sound comparisons, have spent time in pro music recording studios recording music, been in post production sound for about 30 years, my day job involves recording sound and minutely tweaking sound all
day long - often literally matching the “air sound of a room with another, or tweaking reverbs to match production sound.

So, no, I don’t have an accute shortage of experience listening for fine details. I have held a job dependant on having that ability for decades.

——“the system they have does not have high enough definition or detail.”

I have used all manner of speakers including many known for excellent resolution - Quads, Waveform (still own some), Audio Physic various models,
moat recently Thiel 3.7 and 2.7 speakers, along with MBL omni 121s which use the same amazing tweeter/mid module as their $70,000 and higher models.

It would be laughable to even bother trying to claim all those speakers are low resolution. And of course, cable companies, shunyatta included, claim it’s a myth you need a super high resolution system anyway. They claim people can realize audible benefits across a wide range from modest to super high end systems.

So...fail again.


——“Trolling will never stop, because, and this was stated from another power cord thread, "

Isnt it interesting that folks like mrdecibel enter these threads to produce a screed about the failings of other people’s hearing, how they must have too-crappy systems to hear what he can hear, and he calls THOSE people “trolls.”

But when you can’t maturely address the points someone else makes and all
you can fire are blanks like the above, the only thing left to you is calling “troll.”

——“Keep in mind, I not looking to gain any popularity contests with these trolls. I just call them as I see them.”

Ah, just dropping in to tweak feathers then, huh?

What was that “T” word you keep using for others again?

Civil conversations are entirely possible to have about cables. There is no need to blow smoke and just make stuff up about those who don’t agree with you.

Nobody can explain it Nonoise, that's the thing. 

Power being good and not varying has almost nothing to do with it. Power where I live is very good if you measure it. All you do is listen though and its obviously a lot better late at night. 

Also almost all noise is local. The worst noise is within your own room and home. Anyone can confirm this very easily. Simply play some music, listen, then go flip off as many other circuits as you can. Come back and listen to the dramatic improvement, better than almost any power line conditioner you can buy at any price.

Unlike power cords where nobody knows why, its pretty obvious why this works.

Roger on all that. Thanks.

It's partially my bad. 🤔
The thread started with power cords and kind of went off on ICs and SCs and I just ran with the last few posts concentrating on speaker cables. 

Some of what I listed can still apply with PCs since not all power supplies are made the same and not all power sources are either when it comes to noise, wiring, substations, geography (as was pointed out on another thread where in the North East, the power somehow corrodes outlets at a level not experienced elsewhere-I'm sure weather has some factor in it as well).

Where I live the power is really quite good and regular, not varying +/-2V all day long and yet every PC I have sounds different. The three best I have are the TWL American Digital, with the Cullen Red Copper and Zu Mission coming in second, with little difference between the two. 

They're all made well with quality parts yet they're all made differently, and they all sound different. I can't explain it.

All the best,
Nonoise

@nonoise,

Maybe I didn't see that you were addressing the OP and not the thread??