Is improvisational jazz to impressionism art as smooth jazz is to realism art?
So, I’ll acknowledge up front, I’m an engineer. Civilian and Warfighter lives can be in the balance depending on whether our company products perform as required or not. As a result, I try very hard to drive the entropic world we live in towards black and white as much as possible. I need to put order to chaos. When i look at art, impressionistic art requires a lot of mental work to make sense of. I just don't see it or get it, appreciate it or like it. I also find, as hard as i may try to enjoy improvisational jazz, that i don't get it, appreciate it, or like it. Instead, I love Realism art and instrumental smooth jazz!! Reading from Audiogon forum pages for a couple of years now, i feel like i should feel inferior because 1. I don’t appreciate the free flow of expression that is improvisational jazz and 2. I love that there is a tune and thread in smooth jazz. I love the guitar artistry of Chuck Loeb, Chris Standring, and Acoustic Alchemy; the trumpet expressions of Rick Braun, Cindy Bradley, and Chris Botti; and the bass works of Brian Bromberg. I’m curious if there are many others out there that equate order (or lack there-of) in their music tastes to that of their taste in the visual arts? Also, are there many other music lovers who would rather enjoy a good smooth jazz listening session than improvisational jazz? If so, who do you listen to?
I'd go further and assert that what I've said about the nature of Jazz improv holds true for improv in any genre.
Aimless noodling doesn't tend to be very satisfying for players or listeners.
For example, the "theme and variation" approach can be recognized in the playing of Indian classical flautists, Bluegrass banjo pickers, and Chicago Blues harmonica blowers, to name but a few. They all attempt to create "order, structure, purpose and an overall sense of composition".
They may not all succeed every time but this is an exceedingly challenging activity we're talking about.
So, it seems it might be more accurate to suggest you simply don't care for improvisation, period.
Cl;assical and Jazz are viewed as the most "advanced" of all musics. It takes years of study, training, and practice to become proficient enough on an instrument (or voice) to perform it well.
I find those two musics very different in major ways. As others have noted, Classical is for the most part (excluding lots of 20th Century compositions) written, the performers "merely" providing their interpretation of the notes in the score. In Jazz, the composition is often just a basic outline, the players taking the song structure and doing with it as they wish. It is what the musicians add to the basic song that Jazz fans are listening for, often more so than the song itself. It seems to me.
At the far left on the dial of my car radio are two stations, one Jazz the other Classical. I’ve been listening to them as I drive a lot, and switching between them has made the differences between the two musics stark. A Jazz song can have a complex chordal structure and progression, or just a single chord played for an extended period of time, the musicians improvising "over" that one chord. Being first and foremost a song lover, I don’t find that interesting.
Though Rock ’n Roll, Blues, and Country & Western/Hillbilly/Bluegrass are viewed as "primitive" musics, some songs in those genres are fairly sophisticated in terms of composition/chordal and harmonic structures and development, more so that many Jazz songs. Listen to Brian Wilson’s "God Only Knows" (found on The Beach Boys’ Pet Sounds album) for a prime example. Very sophisticated chord structure, harmonic development, and use of counterpoint. Paul McCartney has characterized it as the "best" song he has ever heard.
I find well-written "Pop" (non-Classical and Jazz) songs to have more in common with "traditional" Classical compositions than do many Jazz "songs". Heresy? ;-) On the other hand, what a superior Jazz musician plays on his instrument can transcend the notion of "the song", taking music to a different, higher plane. Such music is often of the abstract variety, asking much of the listener. One must "let go" of the objective, rational view of consciousness, letting the music take you where it wants. The Shape Of Jazz To Come by Ornette Coleman is such an album; hearing it was a transformational experience. It made Jimi Hendrix sound downright pedestrian. ;-)
" @facten: I’m curious: which John McLaughlin recordings qualify as Smooth Jazz????? "
Read my post closer I didn’t say he plays smoothjazz - I noted a few artists that I said fall "in between the two" , meaning between smooth and classic - jazz fusion. Clearer for you now ?????????????????????
Sitting next to each other on a shelf are my ABBA, AC/DC, Roy Acuff, Arthur Alexander, Mose Allison, Al Anderson, and Alpha band (T Bone Burnett, David Mansfield, and Stephen Soles) LP's.
As a professional musician, these posts make me want to kill myself.
Best response by a country mile.
If the OP had left out his first three sentences, this could have been a discussion on what styles of jazz one likes and the occasional references to art.
Those first three sentences show more than a passing affinity to an authoritarian mindset as it meets a few criteria to be one. Normally, one would reference civilian and military needs and not "warfighter" as it’s not a recognized occupation but a romanticized notion one would take to embellish. That, or one is conflating soldiers with mercenaries, blurring obvious distinctions.
I would never begin a thread with such loaded implications, but then, that’s me. I only bring this up due to the silly comments on some forms of art being equated with politics that some posters like to vilify.
We seem to not be communicating very well-- I apologize for whatever responsibility I bear for this.
As it happens, I'm very familiar with John McLaughlin-- I've been listening to him since 1972.
However, I have never heard anything by him that resembles Smooth Jazz in any way or anything midway between Smooth Jazz and Fusion.
In fact, I was hoping you would provide the titles of some of his records that would provide examples of such playing. I hope I have made things clearer!
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." William Casey, CIA Director 1981-1987"
"We are there."
Yup.
Well, half the population believes in facts while the other half believes in "alternative facts". And each side will claim those on the other side are the ones who believe what's false.
"We’ll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." William Casey, CIA Director 1981-1987"
"We are there."
Yup
Well, half the population believes in facts while the other half believes in "alternative facts". And each side will claim those on the other side are the ones who believe what’s false.
@stuartk what if both are completely wrong? ....Both sides blame each other, divided, manipulated, led around by the nose, scared, confused, demoralized. Unaware of the forces that guide them, shaping their thinking, all the
while curating their world view.
To people complaining about the politicization of art and music, both have been used to disseminate propaganda since the start of Human Civilization. Not all trash is Art, and Not all Noise is Music. Beauty is not in the eye of the beholder, it is universal and intrinsic. Beauty has standards, by definition.
Grab/sit down at your instrument. Take any tune. Flat the Five (the So in do-re-mi-fa-so). Linger on the Seven (Ti) and Nine (Re, but up an octave). Find a DJ with a very deep voice to introduce you. Make sure you carry two IDs so you can cash those enormous checks.
@facten; thank you for your list of favorite smooth jazz artists. I recognize and also many on your list, but am more excited to check out those i don’t recognize and suspect i’ll find some new artists to enjoy!
@stuartk; i’m curious to hear the answer to your John McLaughlin also.
Sorry but have not read all the intervening posts. Interesting jazz, to me, ranges from the bass viol part on side 2 of "Marchin' On" by the Heath Bros on Strata-East to hearing yet another rendition of "Patricia" by Art Pepper, with Cecil McBee, Roy Haynes and Stanley Cowell. There is so much out there, and even with effort, I've only scratched the surface. Buying them as LPs is a thing unto itself.
@stuartk The Left believes the election in 2020 was legitimate....The Right believes the Election in 2020 was Stolen. Both are wrong, and simultaneously right. The Election in 2020 was conducted, outside of the theatrics, exactly how all elections are conducted. The Counting machines decide who wins, and have been deciding ever since they were implemented. Evidence can be found in a documentary called "Hacking Democracy"(One of many many other supporting pieces of evidence). The same machines that gave Trump the election in 2016, took it away from him in 2020. The theatrics that the Republican side of the American population saw, were to further divide the public, and are a precursor to the coming civil war. All elections are stolen, and All elections are conducted in this way. Brought to you by the good ol’ CIA. The implications of what I am saying are tremendous.
I know, sounds fantastical, but this same principle can be applied to nearly everything you think you know about the world today. The Overton window limits the conversation to the Left and the Right... The Truth usually resides far outside of the 2 answers you are allowed to choose from. Music, Art, Philosophy are no different. The rot has permeated everything.
This was a great thread until someone ruined it with politics. And for no other reason then to point out his political view point -- which no one here cares about because this was a thread about jazz, music and art. And I was enjoying it. Some really good conversation and insight was/is going on.
@deadhead1000 I just want to go about my life without bothering anyone. But people like yourself, will not let me do it. Can I make a living without acquiescing to whatever the majority believes I should do with my body? I am sorry, I just lost my job because I refused to take a Clot Shot...sorry my life is all about politics right now. 15 year career down the drain, but yeah...I should just zip it.
And everything I said about the CIA creating a market for abstract ART is a 10000000% verifiable fact. The Documents supporting this are available via Freedom of Information disclosures. But you are probably too busy to look them up.. It’s Okay, I understand.
And also, if you are referring to something I am saying, please tag me in your reply, and speak to me directly
without appealing to the gallery.
" As it happens, I’m very familiar with John McLaughlin-- I’ve been listening to him since 1972.
However, I have never heard anything by him that resembles Smooth Jazz in any way or anything midway between Smooth Jazz and Fusion.
In fact, I was hoping you would provide the titles of some of his records that would provide examples of such playing. I hope I have made things clearer! "
Guess I continued to not make it clear or you continue to simply misread my posts - I did not state that JM plays smoothjazz, nor did I say that he plays anything in between smoothjazz and jazz fusion. In my 1st post I mentioned him as an artist I listed that falls, at least in my opinion, between smooth and classic jazz. In my 2nd post I stated the "in between smoothjazz and classic " was jazz fusion and that he plays jazz fusion . So I can’t provide you with some examples of JM playing a hybrid smooth/fusion
"Classic Jazz" is a term most often used to describe Dixieland, so now I'm really confused.
I'll just say that I've never heard anything by J. M. that has any elements that remotely approach Smooth Jazz. His music is far too harmonically and rhythmically complex for that.
Like I said now for the 4th time I never said that JM plays smoothjazz but you keep insisting that I have. As far as my using the term classic I was thinking of Miles, Charlie Parker and the like. If you google classic jazz those and other artists come up . End of story, done with you
There is no way for me to verify whether what you assert is true or not. It could be labelled a conspiracy theory but again, I have no way to authoritatively disprove it.
I find there are plenty of challenges in life that are undeniably real -- I don't have any desire to add to my stress by dwelling upon things that might or might not be true and over which I have no control. But that's my choice-- I'm not in any way suggesting I know what's best for anyone else.
@yuviarora I am replying in public because I never pointed anyone out, several people turned this thread into a political view, not just you, and nothing in my post was political. And then you went and insulted me. Why? I did look up the CIA and art as I never heard that before and yes, I doubted it, but I did my own research and found it very interesting. Thank you. I will not get into your comments about vaccines, it’s not a good use of my time, but I will ask you to do research on who (meaning both person and party) pushed through the “right to work” laws that allowed your company to get rid of you for not getting the vaccine. Are you willing to educate yourself like I did when you asked me?
Wow... a lot of philological thought, personal experience and diverse opinions went into these responses, with very little attitude or bullying (ok some, but not what usually takes place here). I agree with the majority of what I read and would only add... If it makes your Toe Tap (regardless of classification)...it is Good... Be it improvisational (Jazz), highly structured (Classical), in visual/mental focus (Realism) or purposely impaired (Abstract). To each His Own, as long as it does not harm others...
@deadhead1000 I am glad you took the time to research my claim about the CIA funding of Abstract Art, the claim sounds fantastical and tin foil hat, but this is what they do, outside of the overt dismantling of Democratically elected Governments Foreign and Domestic. The other claim I made is also supported by undeniable, incontrovertible evidence...lawsuits, FOIA disclosures, expert testimony, mathematical analysis, you name it. And yes, I do know the part the Republican party played in establishing the Right to work laws.... I am not a Republican, and I am not saying one political party is better than the other. The Dismantling of the American State is a Bipartisan Agenda, both sides are controlled by these multinational banking corporate conglomerates. I also would not like to get into a Clot Shot debate on this audio forum, but I have friends and members of my family that have been injured by it.... The Coercion, threats, and rhetoric being aimed at people that are refusing to comply is in direct violation of the Nuremberg Code... but that is another conversation.
The Government is threatening businesses with crippling fines if they have unvaccinated employees, in a month’s time my family and I will not be able to do anything outside of going to a grocery store.... and even the ability to do that is being debated. Can’t fly, can’t work, can’t travel, can’t do anything. How long before people have no choice but to revolt?
I know this is an audio forum, sorry for bringing up all this here.....but more and more it seems like you can’t talk about any of this stuff anywhere.
PS: I went to a "Jazz" show a few months ago, improvisational jazz ( I am fan of the regular jazz genre) and I walked out of that show with some Ear damage, I am convinced of it. The acoustics in that place, placement of speakers, and above all...The Music, if you can call it that, was sooo bad, that a friend of mine blurted out "what the hell" in the middle of a set, loud enough for the band to hear it. The most amazing part of the night was people clapping, cheering and pretending like what we heard was worth the $30 price of admission....it was quite puzzling for everyone in my party. Couldn’t help but think of the CIA as this was happening :)
As a musician and late in life beatnik I pretty much listen only to jazz and classical. When discussing jazz, people (music fascists?) often tend to gloss over the modern guys who I think are as interesting as the classic jazz dudes with the added benefit of modern recording tech. I still "dig Bill Evans" often, as will as Monk, Montgomery, Joe Pass, etc., but Vijay Iyer (saw him live once), Craig Tayborn, John Scofield, Frisell and others who are actually "not yet dead" keep my interest adequately. Or mind blowingly. Modern orchestral music really blurs the lines with stuff jazz freaks can only imagine. Shower me with some Benjamin Britton baby! What seems to be Fusion’s purpose is to provide background music which is fine by me (in case anybody was worried about my tastes), although I can’t really "listen" to it as a thing with the depth my serious audio art geek side seems to need. I’m an old person who still drives fast cars and motorcycles and plays guitar too damn loud, which indicates possibly a "high threshold of entertainment personality disorder"...I went surfing yesterday (9’6" Gordon & Smith "Team Rider" fiberglass). Beach vacation...gotta have it...Where’s the ibuprofen? Get me my cane! Wheel me into the shade...
The last Jazz show I attended was an all-star group that included, among others, Billy Harper and Eddie Henderson-- two giants. Altogether, there were four or five horns and reeds, piano, bass and drums. Everything was mic'd. This was in a small concert hall and it was waaaayyyy too loud. I talked to the sound guy and he said the band insisted on that volume at sound check.. After about half an hour, I couldn't handle it any more and went out into to the lobby, where I remained for the remainder of the performance. I've never done that at any rock show!
There's not a whole lot of Fusion I enjoy but I do like the original Mahavishnu stuff. . . I have a hard time relating to that as background music.
Having said that, I find most Fusion is akin to watching someone lift weights-- it's seems to me to be mostly about testosterone, flash and exotic scales. It doesn't provide anything that engages me, emotionally, so I don't listen to it.
I had to stop playing guitar "too damned loud" as I didn't want to further damage my hearing. What I want to know is-- even with amps that have power-scaling, why do they make them so they only begin to sound good if you turn 'em up? ? ?
The sound guy,
when
we told him that the volume
was unbearably loud, told us they have ear plugs at the door for all the guests....For real, he actually said that, implying that guests asked for ear plugs all the time, and they
were ready in advance. Imagine paying 30 bucks a person to go to a Jazz show, and then having to sit there
with ear plugs for an hour and a half. Up is Down....Damn the CIA Inversion.
@stuartk I have been largely misunderstood. I totally get that impro / spontaneity in creating something is pure art. I never said and never imagined it to be below classical or anything else. I am not castigating anything at all. I just don't like it. Can I ? I tried and found out it's not my thing.
When you said you 1) didn't like improv and 2) that you "like order and structure and purpose and overall sense of a composition", I thought you were saying that you don't enjoy improv BECAUSE IT LACKS "order and structure and purpose and overall sense of a composition", but apparently you meant something else.
I do not equate visual art and music. I am far from an art expert. I either like it or I do not and I have never paid enough attention to it to make sense out of it.
I make furniture. Humans use furniture for specific purposes. In order to be useful furniture has to accommodate human dimensions. A chair seat has to have a certain height. Same for tables. Furniture has to be made within a set of rules which is what makes it challenging. You want to be original but you have to do it within rules. What good is a nice looking chair you can't sit in? Music is exactly the same or you are playing tennis without a net. I enjoy challenging music like Henry Threadgill's To Much Sugar For a Dime or Eric Dolphy's Out to Lunch. But, there is a limit to western ears. The late John Coltrane work like Ascension leave me cold. There is nothing I can hum or tap my foot to, just a succession of dissonant notes and pace-less rhythms.
If you want to see/hear a mind that produced both visual art and Music google Don Van Vliet.
A person has only two things - a soul and a body - everything that happens around has an impact on both.
Look at all this as FOOD! ... everything in this world is cognized by comparison! for example, two people - one eats right (clean water, vegetables and fruits without chemistry, regime, correct diet, fresh air, sun, gymnastics, good sleep, peaceful surroundings, no drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, swearing, does not cheat on his wife, is passionate about his business .. .)
the second person - drinks water from a muddy puddle in an industrial area, buys vegetables and fruits in the supermarket (they were watered with chemistry when they grew up, then they are impregnated with chemistry so that they would lie in the store for a long time), does not observe the regime at all, eats fast food, breathes from the exhaust pipe of a car, does not happen in the sun (for example, a miner), moves little, almost does not sleep, around angry aggressive people, drinks, smokes, takes drugs, sleeps with prostitutes, a loafer ...
As a result, one is cheerful, happy, slender, does not get sick, lives for a long time, has achieved a lot in life. The second - his short life is torment, he has chronic diseases, obesity, he is weak, women do not like him, and so on ...
We figured out the body - no one can argue. SOUL is such an organ! , it's matter! (has the nature of a field).
the laws of the nourishment of the soul - have the same (or similar) principles as the body. You will either become happy, or you will follow the road leading to moral deformity (illness of the soul) ...
Music is food! ... and your destiny!
Music hierarchy (descending order of importance):
1. Sacred music (in the west it is not enough, in America it is not at all)
2. Folk music - in it all the pain, wisdom and experience of older generations
3. Classical symphonic music (even farmers turn it on to cows and milk yields increase ... animals gain weight faster ... if you turn on jazz, cows will want a cigar for whiskey and refuse to press milk))) ...)
Then there are other types of music, but at the end of the list (the most destructive effect not only on the soul, but objectively on the human body) heavy metal, punk, rave, songs containing abuse, too loud and harsh ... Look at YouTube materials about water:
Experiments by Masaru Emoto. Water. New world
An example of sacred music (YouTube):
Do you feel bad? Listen to these angels.
An example of folk music:
"Есть на Волге утес" - Леонид Харитонов и Ансамбль им. Александрова (1965)
I really try and give my all when I listen to all kinds of Music.I will be 70 and started with doowap and music on TV .My grandfather alway had the radio on he was into 20s music. My uncle doowap.My Stepfather Sinatra, Dean Martin,and Bway show music.In school the nuns liked Hootenanny. Then came the Beatles, Am rock.Then FM rock WNEW ,prog rock, Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath. CSNand Y.Jazz started when I worked in the old PO unloading trucks at nite.The guy at the front desk played JAZZ,mostly Free Form,Coltrane ,Miles Davis.From Prog Rock I started to listen to Classical everything I would listen to.That lead me to discovering Movie Sound tracks which mostly is Class -Jazz.Funny going to bars in the 70s lead to Disco,the Soul ,Rhythm n Blues.World music.Today,I like everything but Rapa Crapa,don't get me wrong but some of the language is just disgusting. I like the music,not the words.i like all kinds of jazz and have been to lots of clubs in Manhattan. I also like New Orleans Dixie land jazz.What I like about music from Louisiana is Down home Cajun and Texas Rock.Music is the Language of the world ,something that brings people of different religious back grounds and different colors together as one .
As an european I always wondered why the americans have lost interest in jazz music, the only original music art form that came from your continent. I know that there were many factors that contributed to that fact, like social changes, the influence of tv and finally the influence of music industry, but to read some posts here that are are so unappreciative (even if you do not like the music) towards jazz is something that I really do not understand
Personal tastes aside, jazz is part of your cultural heritage and had so wide influence on art in general and on (music) art of other cultures that only a complete ignorant can deny something so obvious.
In this modern times where informations are so available, beeing ignorant is a matter of choice
@onhwy61 Kenny G has sold over 75 million albums. Pat Methany, 20 million. All music is in the mind of the listener (does a tree that falls in the forest make any sound if no one is around).Play whatever floats your boat. Just don't make me listen to Kenny G.
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