Importance of Amplifier versus Preamp?

The preamp is the air-traffic cotroller. The amps are a plane.

I'll agree pre-amp is probably the most important tweak and if you are running a phono you need one.You also need a volume controll. ANd maybe a way to switch multiple input sources if you have those. A pre-amp is just one such device to serve those functions when needed. Other than that, its just a potentially expensive signal processor that is not very flexible compared to the alternatives.

These days, it pays to consider function, not form. A traditional preamp provides various functions that may be had equally well or better in other forms these days.

Overall, as far as this thread goes; I'm in agreement with Mapman. If I needed RIAA eqing, perhaps I might feel differently.

It's an easy experiment.
First try running without an amp.

Then try without a preamp

Which is more important will become perfectly clear.

It is often said that your amplifier is the engine of your system, and the preamp is the heart. Both are important and should work synergistically. I previously ran a Boulder 1060 amp with a heavily modded Ayon CD-5s as linestage and that combo worked very well. With that said, the Boulder had a bigger influence over the sound. Same deal with my previous Classe power amp. So i'd have to give more weight to the power amp, then pre. With pre/power combo's I generally prefer a ss power amp with a tubed linestage which gives you the option to roll the stock tubes with better matched NOS tubes (unless we're talking about Vitus, Soulution or Goldmund).

Another option to consider is a good integrated amp. There are some really nice integrateds out there which can be had at a bargain 2nd hand such as Hegel, Luxman, Modwright, Simaudio Moon Evo and Musical Fidelity, as well as tubed integrateds such as Vac & Leben.

FWIW, I just bought and set up a pair of stand mount monitors from Music Direct (Wharfedale Dentons at half price ($500). I used a tube amp and they sound far beyond my expectations. They are well reviewed in the English mag's. Caveat - they are rear ported and won't sound too good backed up to a wall.

The amps have specs that are likely not a lot different from high end amps.

The preamp however is a different matter- I would seriously look for a budget tube preamp for this setup- that would offer the most bang for the buck in terms of improvement in sound, if the tube preamp is in good working order.

I don't want to seem picayune, but it can be important to be precise about model numbers, in part so that others can research what you've got. So I believe a couple of corrections to your correction are called for:

SAE 2101 should be SAE 2401, as you stated earlier.
Sony TA-E330ES should be (I believe) Sony TA-N330ES.

I'm not particularly knowledgeable about bookshelf speakers, but among vintage speakers one brand I would suggest looking for is ADS, also referred to as a/d/s.

Good luck. Regards,
-- Al

Almarg,
here we go: SONY TA-E77ESD is my preamp working with the SAE 2101 amplifier.Sorry about that mistake.
I just bought another amp:Sony TA-E330ES for my office.
I probably will pair it with the Nikko Beta 20.
What bookshelf speakers would be a good choice? Thank you kindly.

R&R'er, those are not the model numbers you had indicated in your earlier post. Also, I can't find any indication that there ever was a Sony "ta 55e77s." Can you clarify, more precisely?

The comments in my previous post remain as stated regardless of whether the Nikko is a Beta 20 or a Beta II (Roman numeral "2"). However that may not be the case with respect to the Sony.

BTW, I had assumed in my previous post that when you referred to a "Sony TA77ESD" in your earlier post that you were actually referring to a "Sony TA-E77ESD."

Regards,
-- Al

I just purchased , used , a Sony ta 55e77s, and I have a Nikko Beta 20.
What would you suggest that is vintage, from 1985 through 200 that would be good.Thanks.

Rockanroller-

the pre-amp, is the most important piece of the audio chain, as, it is the heart of any system. It should be of the best quality and build. Which brand/model interests you?
Happy Listening!

SAE's used to be the dealer's amp of preference for OHM speakers.

You can buy vintage OHMs used for not much, buy upgrades for any model still from OHM, or buy new refurbs or totally new speakers from OHM as well.

Just one option. Many others as well. Read up on what's out there first before deciding.

Apologies if this is just too far off your initial inquiry, but maybe the amp/pre are fine. For $1500 you could have a really good front end--Used Windows laptop ($300-$400,) jRiver software (on sale today for $44.98,) Wireworld Starlight USB cable ($100,) and a used Benchmark DAC1 ($500), and you still have $500 for great source material.

This would position you towards the future of hi-res, and also Internet Radio and perhaps Tidal.

Buck for buck, for me this was the greatest improvement in sound quality, access to music options, and even reduces the cost of feeding it.

Therefore, after all those advices, the quandary becomes: I will keep the Sony and the SAE ,but I need to upgrade the speakers.
What would be good floor standing used speakers for $1000?
Should I go vintage, or current? Hum.........

If you decide to go the tube integrated route, here is a very modest cost way to give it a try:
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/tube-audio-space-as-3i-integrated-el-34-tube-amplifier-in-factory-box-2015-01-28-integrateds-80020-broomfield-co.
No relationship to seller, never heard the amp, etc., etc.

Definitely play around with the various ways identified to hook the gear up. Listen and compare. Only once you have it set up the way that sounds best should you consider any next steps, if still needed.

Thanks for getting back to us. I really can’t provide better advice than that provided by Al’s post of 1/27. Only other consideration might be to consider the purchase of a DAC which would allow additional flexibility for other digital sources down the road. Either way, I would consider upgrading the speakers first.

Your list of the equipment you presently have includes two preamps, one of which can accept a coaxial digital input as well as analog inputs. And your CD player provides a coaxial digital output as well as analog outputs.

So the system can be configured in at least three different ways:

1)CDP analog outputs to Sony Esprit preamp to SAE power amp to speakers.

2)CDP analog outputs to Nikko preamp to SAE power amp to speakers.

3)CDP digital output via a digital cable to Sony Esprit preamp to SAE power amp to speakers.

Have you compared sonics for each of these configurations? It seems to me that the existence or non-existence of differences, and their magnitude and character if there are differences, might provide some clues as to what the weak link in the system may be, from your individual perspective.

Also, after doing some research on all of the components you listed, while I certainly can't definitively pinpoint a weak link, I'll say that the SAE power amp and the Sony Esprit preamp seem like impressive beasts relative to the other components. And although on many occasions here I've cautioned people against assuming a high degree of correlation between performance and price, I think it's noteworthy that those two components sold for well over $1K in 1980's dollars, while the Nikko sold for less than 1/4 of that amount around the same time, and the Yamaha sells for $300 today.

Provided that you have confidence in their condition, and pending your answer about a comparison between the three configurations, and given your $1500 budget, my instinct would be to direct the investment to something other than a replacement for the SAE and the Sony. So in addition to the possibility of a speaker upgrade, you may also want to consider a CDP upgrade, including the possibility of one having a tube output stage.

And one thing I would most certainly NOT do is choose how to allocate the $1500 based on generalized notions of the relative importance of preamps, power amps, or other kinds of components.

Good luck, however you decide to proceed. Regards,
-- Al

I believe much of the "importance" of the preamp ideally would be seeking its negation as a separate component. I'd try out a fully integrated solution like the Devialet 120, or carefully seeking the match a power amp with a combined DAC/preamp. Especially with a sole digital source it'd make more sense.

The Polk web site specs that speaker @ 90 dB (hopefully per watt per meter, but no detail) and the nominal impedance as 8 ohms. Without seeing the impedance curve, it's hard to be sure, but it's likely that it would be a good candidate for moderate powered tube amplification or solid state. If vocal/midrange is a priority, an EL-34/6CA7 tube amp with 2 tubes per channel that operated in ultra-linear mode, or maybe a pair of KT88 or equivalent per channel.

If it seems like I am pushing tubes, you are right. If the speaker has been designed to be compatible w tubes (see my post above) then I think they sound most like real music. YMMV.

We can't hear your system. Turn it up some! :^)

Seriously, have you done everything you can to get what you have set up best? Have you started to listen critically? How does it sound? Does it need to change? If so what are your goals for the sound that are not being hit currently?

Gotta know the goal first. Its hard to offer totally reliable advice over the internet without the ability to hear the subject. Even if someone had the same combo of gear in exactly the sme working order, every room is different.

One thing for sure, its best to try to always try to identify the weakest link make one change at a time, and take time to evaluate well before doing anything else.

Vintage gear may offer the best value in some cases but not always. It all depends.....

therefore the question becomes: for a limited budget, I have looked and purchased vintage equipment because the idea was that the vintage equipment was better engineered/constructed that a lot of equipment made today, for 1/10 of the price of today equipment.
As far as the polk speakers,should I get other speakers? what do I need to look for. Just so everyone remember,at my age, my auditive range is probably 90 % of what it was when I was 20, so my ultimate goal is a sound that is clean, with an emphasis on mid range, and just enough bass to be balanced. Hope this make sense.
Speaker specs: Monitor 75 T/•1-inch (25mm) silk/polymertweeter/•Four 6-1/2-inch composite drivers/frequency response:30Hz - 25kHz /
thank you for your input.

With a limited budget and modest expectations as already established by your selection of speakers (I'm not suggesting that your Polks are a poor choice, Polk actually puts out some good speakers at a reasonable price) it would appear to me that you are locked into an integrated amp or a receiver. The big difference with a receiver and an integrated amp is the inclusion of a phono stage and an AM/FM tuner in most receivers. Additionally most receivers will also include tone controls, which if properly implemented and used, can compensate for some room problems (often no more than those caused by speaker placement often too close to a wall behind them), or source, or component matching issues. Line stages are very popular now but they can be rather limited in the functions they include, and usually cost more, but will probably offer you better sonic possibilities if you don't need the stuff I mentioned that a receiver can.



Now, for someone to comment further on integrated amps which you might be able to use, you will have to furnish some information about the speakers. Polk has many models and I'm sure that their nominal impedence and efficiency will differ substantially. You should supply the model number and these spec's.

It might also be helpful if posters were to know what your long range goals are, assuming you have them at all. Lots of folks are quite satisfied with modest systems and would rather spend their time and money on software once they have reached a certain level (and some want SOTA systems so long as they are on the cheap, so to speak:-). Unfortunately they don't!) Think about it, you could save a lot of time and money over the long haul by being realistic about what you really want or need, and how much money you can really chase after it.

01-27-15: Rockanroller
as far as budget , I am looking at maybe another 1500.

I said it before, and I'll say it again, integrated amp.
It will work better at your level, $1500, and a whole lot more.

Its more useful to discuss the order in which one tackles these things.

For best results fastest, you always want to get the biggest issues resolved first.

That is the amp/speaker/room domain That makes it very important to get this area all right together first.

Only then you are in a position to judge whats upstream further for its "sound quality", much of which is a very personal and highly subjective decision making process, hence the interest shown there by many.

But first thing is first. Tackle the biggest issues first! That's basic engineering best practice. You have to get the biggest nuts and bolts right first before sweating the details, no matter how important those are as well. In the case of a home audio system, that is the amp/speaker/room "subsystem".

Other ways might work out in the end but will take longer and likely end up costing more total.

In some cases, like with a single source with volume control, you could well end up with no pre-amp. Or if more than one source, possibly an inexpensive passive pre-amp that frees up money for elsewhere where truly needed.

Of course you want the amp and preamp to be faithful to the source but after using several preamps with my amp (McCormack DNA 125) I realized one thing quickly....that the amp was not the bottleneck. In fact that amp went through several upgrade phases and I felt no need to change it out. I used three different preamps and three different pairs of speakers during the time I had it. I have since replaced it with a pair of Quicksilver mono amps. Are they better ? In some ways yes, but that DNA 125 was a great amp.

I generally agree with Syntax; great pre-amp and very good amp if a compromise has to be be made. In this case, however, I think an integrated really makes sense. There are some very nice tube and solid state choices listed here right now in the $1K-$1.5K range if you want to buy used (or new, the Wyrd4sound mINT integrated w dac and headphone amp is a new piece). Your speaker choice is very important in terms of going to tube vs. solid state amplification. Generally "speaking", speakers with lower sensitivity (listed in specs as dB/watt/meter or foot), those spec'd as nominally lower impedance (4 ohms or less) or with large variations in impedance with frequency, are better suited for solid state amps. Conversely, higher sensitiviy, higher impedance, more constant impedance curves are well suited for tube amps. Since you like rock and blues, I'm thinking that if you went tube, an "ultra-linear", tetrode or pentode circuit type would be more to your liking. They make more power with the same tubes and are often described as having more "drive" than triode circuits. For a variety of reasons, most people feel that tube "watts" are more powerful than solid state "watts". Of course, from an electrical standpoint, watts is watts, but to many people's ears, a 50 wpc tube amp would sound as powerful as a 100 wpc (or more) solid state.

Thank you all of you Gentlemen and Ladies for the insight.
I feel like I am learning a lot about this magical world!
Here is my equipment:
amp: SAE 2401, vintage
preamp: Nikko Beta 2 , vintage
Sony TA77ESD, vintage
Yamaha CD300S cd player new.
cables from Blue Jean cables.
I listen to classic rock, blues, some classic.
as far as budget , I am looking at maybe another 1500.
All advice is much appreciated.

Rockenroller, where are you? You have initiated a good thread and have received much great advise and not responded with additional info in specifically helping you. Again what speakers and budget?

My experience suggest source and preamp is where I hear the most significant differences. I submit the preamp is the hardest component to get right...at least that's what I'm going through at the moment.

Using the same manufacturer doesn't guarantee anything. I have a Parasound A21 and recently purchased a Parasound JC2 preamp. I thought that would end my quest, but I hated it. Going direct from my PS Audio Directstream was better to my ears, but something is still missing. My quest for the right preamp continues!

They are equally important .Your sound will only be as good as your weakest link.IMHO Of course!

My angle on this is that any quality combination of preamp and amp can potentially sound good if the 'tweaking' is performed with patience and perseverance. I believe we are in the 'golden age' of tweaking with so many solid choices.
I will even go out on a limb by saying that a system with the right isolation devices, room correction treatment, electrical conditioning, etc. will almost always sound better than another system thrown together at twice or maybe even three times the price. I think that in a sense, this thread is missing the point on where the $$ should be spent.

Interesting how much emphasis you guys are putting on Preamps. I always thought that the Amp was more important, but at the same time my system didn't sound right until I got a Lightspeed Attenuator.

I like the idea of only shelling out $500 for a Preamp that in my opinion just let the signal through with no coloration and not really lacking anything either. For someone like me it also opens up more $ for other things, usually amp.

I figured good source, going into a good dac, into a lightspeed, a good amp matched correctly to speakers, room treatments and you're good to go. Adding a $3000 preamp would increase my total system cost by 33%...

I don't get why preamps have to have source selections on them either. Seems like a waste for someone who is just going to be switch sources on an external dac anyways.

Interesting and very informative thread. Even though I have heard all this before, for some reason it clicked for me this time.

Someone made the point that you can achieve better results matching different manufacturers amp and preamp because one company excels in pre's and the other in amps; I like this idea and believe it to be true also,

Next question for me is what is lost using a Lightspeed vs a $3000 pre amp, and, what are the most loved pre amps by you guys? Tube?

"01-26-15: Dtc
Of course, for the computer audio crowd these days, the rage is to remove the pre-amp and just have a good output stage and volume control in the DAC. This is basically the old passive pre-amp idea. I am still of the mind that the pre-amp matters, assuming levels and impedance match up OK. But lots of people are going without pre-amps these days. As to integrateds, one of the old standards the Naim Nait 5 is passive, it has no pre-amp state in it. They just concentrate on the power amp section."

There's really nothing wrong going directly to an amp either. Its just a matter of how well its implemented and what you're personal preference is. I've been using Wadia CD players for years. I can get good sound with or without a preamp.

Your Naim example is excellent. If there was ever a case to be made about using a passive in a budget integrated, the Nait 5i I had was it. That thing was nothing short of a train wreck. One of the worst pieces of audio gear I've ever heard or bought. They just tried to do too much at that price point. Naim should have left it passive. Compare that to my Creek 5350SE that used a passive preamp in it
and there was no comparison. Even though both amps were about the same price, you would never know it based on SQ.

01-26-15: Wlutke
"Your amp can't sound any better than what the preamp gives it."

Almarg -
"This is true. But it is also true that the preamp can't sound any better than the amp allows it to. So the location of a given component in the chain is in itself of no significance, IMO."

Regards,
-- Al

Al,

I agree. In the big picture, the weakest link is the weakest link, regardless.
However, signal error and noise in the preamp are facing downstream amplification. Better to rid the system of the error before it gets magnified in my experience.

Bill

I believe the preamp is more important, this was evident as I moved up the food chain... most important though is the synergy between the preamp , amp and speakers. You can have great equipment that doesn't gel vs. very good gear that sounds right together.

Of course, for the computer audio crowd these days, the rage is to remove the pre-amp and just have a good output stage and volume control in the DAC. This is basically the old passive pre-amp idea. I am still of the mind that the pre-amp matters, assuming levels and impedance match up OK. But lots of people are going without pre-amps these days. As to integrateds, one of the old standards the Naim Nait 5 is passive, it has no pre-amp state in it. They just concentrate on the power amp section.

Just wanted to throw in another option.

01-26-15: Mapman
The better highly efficient Class D amps out there today, and some are quite good, can deliver 500w/ch or more for comparable cost to lower power Traditional less efficient Class A/B or certainly class A amps, tube or SS.

So you can get efficiencies in speaker, amp or both these days.

True enough. But I think that a more apples to apples comparison illustrating the point Minorl and I have been trying to make would be comparing the prices of the Pass amps as you go up the line in power within a given series (e.g., X.5 or XA.5 or X.8 or XA.8). Or within the ARC Ref series of amps, or among Atmasphere amps, or any number of other such examples that could be cited.

Bottom line is you have to get things matched well to keep costs under control. I'd get speaker/room interactions right first using a suitable amp for the speakers, in order to be in a position first to access source sound quality meaningfully, and then tweak the pre-amp and source from there. How can one assess the sound quality of a pre-amp without the stuff downstream needed to make the music in place properly first?

Agreed completely.

Best regards,
-- Al

"01-26-15: Mapman
Yes, getting an integrated means an expert matches amp and pre-amp for you."

Not all experts are created equal. lol.

If you are a beginner, tell ups how much you have to spend, what kind of music you listen to and what
your sonic priorities are and we can get more specific. Today there are many very good integrated amps (amp and preamp in one box) which will insure a good electrical match and save you the cost of an interconnect, if $$ is a factor. Also say new or used,

There are some pretty good responses here on this subject. Sometimes we all forget that this can be pretty daunting and more so for beginners in the hobby. I guess that is true for most everything that has a "high end". Watches, cars, audio equipment, etc. You really have to know what you are doing to play and many people get so frustrated by some sales people (trying to get them to buy the most expensive items, or trying to clear out items without listening to what the buyer is all about), or "experts" that tell them to go for the very best, when they may not be there yet in terms of budget, or listening and appreciation levels.

But, I do appreciate the responses and the fact that people here generally won't look down on beginner's or snub their noses at them.

enjoy

The better highly efficient Class D amps out there today, and some are quite good, can deliver 500w/ch or more for comparable cost to lower power Traditional less efficient Class A/B or certainly class A amps, tube or SS.

So you can get efficiencies in speaker, amp or both these days.

Bottom line is you have to get things matched well to keep costs under control. I'd get speaker/room interactions right first using a suitable amp for the speakers, in order to be in a position first to access source sound quality meaningfully, and then tweak the pre-amp and source from there. How can one assess the sound quality of a pre-amp without the stuff downstream needed to make the music in place properly first?

Both very important preamp more so.

Newbee, thanks for pointing that out.

Regarding high efficiency speakers, I think that the point Minorl was making and that I was emphasizing would become clearer and less controversial if the reference was to highER efficiency speakers, as opposed to lowER efficiency speakers. For example, say 84 db/1w/1m vs. 92 db/1w/1m, those both being much more common choices than speakers having truly high efficiencies such as 100 db/1w/1m or more.

Using that example, and assuming that the two speakers have similar impedance curves, if the 92 db speaker requires say 50 watts to be able to produce the desired peak volume levels, the 84 db speaker will require 315 watts to do the same (assuming the speaker itself can comfortably handle that power level).

In general, it seems safe to assume that a 315 watt amplifier will usually cost dramatically more than a 50 watt amplifier, if they are both to provide the same level of quality. And the concerns that have been mentioned that are unique to "high" efficiency speakers (as opposed to "higher" efficiency speakers) would seem unlikely to be be particularly relevant at 92 db or thereabouts.

Regards,
-- Al

Yes, getting an integrated means an expert matches amp and pre-amp for you. Assuming suitable speakers, nothing too challenging or esoteric, and not an unusually large room, you are probably good to go sooner and for less money than otherwise.

I missed what speakers you have?

I'm not sure HE speakers makes choosing amps any easier. HE speakers tend to be sensitive to everything, including noise. It can be like listening under a microscope where any difference good or bad is apparent. It seems to me that those who go with the HE approach end up with perhaps the most expensive electronics as well before everything is good. Its true that not many watts are needed, but all teh rest probably matters more. IF using truly HE speakers that is.

A good amp with a great preamplifier

Hey guys! You might note that he has previous posts seeking advise on how to select stuff for some Polk speakers he has already purchased. He is a novice for sure and might benefit from some really simple advise which will keep him out of a quandary (and 'trouble') would be most helpful.

If I had the requisite knowledge I would guide him towards getting a modest (price and quality wise) SS integrated, or a receiver, which would serve him well until he is financially and interest wise committed to really making an entry in to high end audio. I see pretty good stuff for sale used on many sites for $500 to $750 which would I believe would serve him well and eliminate all of the issues that would need to be addressed by an advanced audiophile. For example I saw a used Marantz 2265b for about $600+ on another site which had just been overhauled which I thought was attractive.

But, FWIW. You guys have a lot more expertise on these matters than I.

If Rockanroller follows all this advice he'll be out 100 thousand dollars. Misery loves company.
If Rock is all you listen to get as good an integrated
as money will allow, just make sure it is rated stable to 2
ohms.