Imagine someone wants to buy new gear and they posted this graph, how much better advice could you provide if you saw this first:
If you want lame advice DON'T do this!
Have you ever seen a member ask for advice about their system and don't understand why they need to make a change? Mistakes in this hobby are generally expensive. Does a list of components tell you how they sound together as a system? No Does a picture of a room tell you how the system sounds in the room? No. Think about the dollars that have been flushed away because the problem was the room and no matter what you stick in there or how much it cost it won't git er done. A flat in room frequency response is a starting point before changing anything. So, why don't more people post measurements when asking for advice? If you want lame advice DON'T post your system in your profile. If you want good advice post your system and a pic. If you want excellent advice include your in room FR measurements (which almost all modern receivers provide or REW can do for free).
64 responses Add your response
| Post removed |
My streamer is a Paradigm Link which was only $199 on sale and has all the streaming features I need AND an RCA in port so I can also connect a TT or a CDP to it if I wanted. The reason it is so good is because it has ARC room correction. I use the toslink out to my Sony TAZH1ES dac/pre. The end result is a true holographic soundstage, crystal clear intonation of voices, every pluck of a cello, every breath of a singer, every shimmer of a cymbal or a triangle. It sounds so amazing NOT because of the streamer or the dac/pre. It sounds amazing because it is tuned to my room just right. No matter how much you spend on your front end, if the notes smear, if the noise doesn’t allow them to stand in their own space of the soundstage, you are missing the point. To do this strictly by ear is painstaking because you don’t know what you don’t know. Maybe it sounds great but you don’t know how much better it can get. When you see a measurement like the one below it basically confirms you have squeezed the living daylights out of your room to focus in a great performance for every track you play. I had a professional acoustician review this graph, he said even my FR before the ARC correction was outstanding due to the attention I gave to my room. The corrected graph is even better as you can see.
|
but it is not easy to master if you’re not familiar with acoustic measurement taking. You already learned to move your MLP and what did that cost? Time, maybe a learning curve. Imagine if you didn't have that information and attempted to "fix" it by buying new equipment. It would be money down the tubes. I went through the same thing, instead of flushing dollars I went to doing what you are going through. Moved my MLP forward so its equidistant from the back wall, placed my speakers a t precise angles using a tape measure and a laser pointer, measured again and it was better, critically listened and WOW. Not bad for an afternoons work and I didn't need to buy new gear. |
OP, you say, "Every professional installer (either for the home or the studio) measures, tweaks, measures, listens, and gets it right." My experience is otherwise. I've owned systems from 2 figures to 6, and every one of them was better than what the pros did in a public building near me. 10 days ago I was treated to one that was even worse. Of course there are experts who know what they are doing. The famous Cox, who did the research on room dimensions is a superb example. He found that most rooms are just plain bad, and that the difference between good and just OK can be as little as 2 cm in one dimension. Ignore the science at your peril - like some pros it seems. |
@secretguy Relatively speaking, yes I'm new here. But like everyone else I can throw in my $2 (adjusted for inflation). I'm all in for a good debate but surely we can do this in a civil fashion without name calling. (Not suggesting you are) |
@macg19 Clearly you're new here. |
| Post removed |
People always talk about how bad the rooms are at audio shows and some years ago I entered one to check out some gear. The door was one of those slow closing types and music was playing so I turned to pull the door quicker than unassisted to close off the noise in the hall. As I was closing it with my back to the room I thought to myself, Man....that's some great sounding cello playing and when I turned around, it was Vincent Belanger playing cello in the room. A room a little bigger than my living room. Next up were the speakers (I forget the brand) playing the same piece and damn if it didn't sound practically the same. Quite the feat and there were no room treatments in it. Other rooms in the hall of the same size and shape just didn't seem to cut the mustard and that's when I filed in my head that the room, to a point, can have negative effects but it's the gear and the way it's set up. The rest are excuses. All the best, |
I think @jond has made the best contribution to the discussion. 🙂 @kota1 REW may be free (or a donation), but it is not easy to master if you’re not familiar with acoustic measurement taking. It’s all I can do to READ a graphical report, much less create one. I have purchased the Umike-1, downloaded the software, and managed to take a single measurement, a week went by, and now I’m starting all over again. I’ll get there, eventually. I was helped by those who responded to my ‘From Whence comes soundstage?’ and introduced me to the LEDR test. I learned I was not sitting in the proper spot in my room. If I could be comfortable straddling the arms of both my recliner and couch, my head would be in the perfect ‘sweet’ spot. |
I perfectly understand that...And it is perfectly fine if you like your room...
😊
|
Good post... You tuned your room for your ears... Now imagine you add a grid of located Helmholtz resonators also...Ionizers and schumann generators...Imagine now you use your speakers as two beams concentrated on your listening position... I did it with a foldable screen on which i place resonators and diffusers ... It is impossible to explain how to do it because it is done in an incremental way in a tuning process... The results was a holographic room soundfield with the intimacy of headphone... Way more powerful than buying gear... My only problem is that it could have been better with more sophisticated speakers...
|
I spent about 30K on equipment which was substantial since I’m a blue collar worker. It took 8 years to get all my gear. When I moved I decided to try room treatments so I bought about $2k worth of auralex bass traps and acoustic tiles. I brought then into the room slowly as I listened…. I found the sweet spot and stopped before I made the room dead. I have REQ and a mic but my 50 y.o. Ears don’t agree. I tuned it to how I like it. Visitors may find it lacking but my 30-13k hearing likes it. To each their own… |
This is my second case... you room was good then you were lucky... But room optimization , my third case ,only begin with a good room and do not end there.. Almost no one had listen to a dedicated small room , because almost no one own one... And pro dont want to "create a ashrine to the audio Gods"...A good room is enough for most customers ...doing more will cost a fortune... Thanks for the expression... Room optimization is a "shrine to the audio Gods"... Ask to people who could pay 100,000 bucks for their room if their optimized room is better than just a good room or not ? They will say that there is no comparison... Then i did not negate your point nor want to depreciate your room ... I only add what was missing for the sake of understanding and from my experience... By the way it was so hard to create one optimized room i will never do it again... And i lack the 100,000 bucks to pay for one...
😊 My unesthetical room with 100 resonators and other devices was that : "a shrine to the audio God" ... Good expression... It is better than "mad scientist lair"...
|
I'm not confusing the three cases you mentioned. I was told by professionals who've sat and listened to music for hours at my place that nothing needs to be done to improve the sound in my room. I understand the points you're making. I guess I'm just lucky or it could be that minimal room treatments are all anyone really needs, unless they want to make a shrine to the audio gods. 😄 All the best, |
A room can sound bad... Then it must be corrected acoustically...
A living room room can sound good with no apparent defect... Then you can live with it without doing any acoustic treatment ...It will be just ok... It will not be optimal...
A DEDICATED room can sound also OPTIMAL for a specific system and could be more than just OK... Then even if acoustic control is not necessary because clapping your hand there is no echo , doing it will be rewarding more than any upgrade... Small room acoustic is way more than just suppressing the echo in the room... 😊 Do not confuse these three different cases...
The gear does not replace acoustic optimization... I understand that most people cannot do it and cannot pay someone for doing it ... But we must say the basic truth... Acoustic is not a mere correction ....It is a process of optimization of the relation between your ears, the room and the speakers... If i could had better speakers than my Mission Cyrus , my room optimization would have crush even my actual stunning headphone in intimacy and in all acoustic factors...
|
I've had a recording engineer who also makes speakers (I owned one of his TL-D1s) and CDs over to my place several times over the years. First thing he did was walk around, clapping his hands and checking out the corners. I asked him if I needed room treatments and he said "No, your room is fine. There's no echo." He even pointed up to the popcorn ceiling and smiled. I guess it's better than a smooth flat surface. It's a small room, relatively speaking, but I do sit 9' back from the speakers with the rear wall behind my head. Before anyone complains about reflections, remember that if the distance from your head to the rear wall is less than the circumference of your head, your ear-brain mechanism will filter out reflections. Ask any spelunker how they locate someone lost in caves. They put their back up against the rocks and listen. Besides, it takes delays of over 40ms to be perceived as an echo and that's not just gonna happen in my room. I've also had a high end and well respected audio dealer over a few times and he enjoys my listening space. I use no room treatments at all. Sometimes with a near field listening set up you can get really good sound with not much fuss. Recording studios are there for getting the most out of a recording and once done, there's no great need, if any, to replicate that same environment. The work is done. Sit back and enjoy the sound. All the best, |
First of all, most manufacturers don't know how to set-up speakers in a room to optimize the sound. When my dealer friend gets in a new pair of speakers, the manufacturer always comes in and changes the positions and not for the better. While the room is one component of the total sound, most people have equipment that they have no idea what makes them sound the way they do. Two examples, how many have ever heard field coil speakers or a Direct Heated Triode tube component. Audio Physics has had speaker placement set-up instructions on their website since forever. One of our listening rooms has brick walls and I bet that we achieve better sound than most do and the room is barely treated if at all. Happy Listening.
|
If someone asks for genuine advice on a subject/product I have experience with, I will give it honestly. If someone chooses to "take me to task" for said advice and has no pics of their system, and nothing other than their word on what they own (and maybe a thousand responses to posts basically all saying "cables all sound the same"), well, that's when things get dicey. Sure, they all sound the same when your equipment is sub-par and your paper-route money goes to smoking weed and downing 'shrooms. There are so many blow-hards and wannabe's on here that it's tough (at first) to sort out the clowns. A pic of your system under your profile helps settle that. You're never going to get good advice from someone who hasn't had any experience with a product, yet those are the ones who feel the need to shout louder than anyone else. Far too much of that going on here...... I will approach my room and my system my way. I have "enough" experience to know that if I don't know what I'm talking about, stay out of it. If I DO happen to know what I'm talking about, I will for sure give advice freely. I know what I like, and know what sounds good to ME. TO ME. To you? Possibly.... I don't feel the need to measure my room at this point in time. Free advice is worth what you pay for it. Have a nice day, and happy listening.
|
I do not have a dedicated room -- my system’s in our living room. Nor did I enter this hobby in possession of an engineering mind-set. I’m a creative person/music lover who’s discovered my listening experience is enhanced by a nice system (the best sounding I’m capable of assembling within my budgetary restrictions). I’ve done this through a combination of reading/watching reviews, asking tor advice here and most of all -- seeking to please my own ears through demoing gear in my room. It’s entirely possible that I’ve frustrated some members in the past when soliciting advice. There have been points in my journey when I’ve felt not only very confused but downright foolish. Nevertheless, over the past 15 years or so, my system has improved enormously and it would be absurd to assert that input from forum members has not contributed significantly to reaching this point. I understand your frustration. Certain overly-generalized questions get asked over and over. But I believe it’s important keep in mind that not everyone here is not the same level of experience/expertise. If you only wish to converse with those on your level or above, you are entirely free to do that. If a newbie asks "What’s the best ____" (fill in the blank) you can simply ignore it. Someone else may take the time to explain that "there is no best" or "it depends" and this bit of information alone may be extremely helpful to the newbie. In other words, it’s not always necessary to provide a "solution" for an OP’s dilemma. It’s true that sometimes an OP is not able or willing to do what is actually necessary to reach their stated goal. However, responding in a manner that deepens their understanding of the big picture can be just as valuable. You may disagree but I would not characterize such a response as "lame".
|
It’s all good fun but in terms of results, the problem occurs when people have big goals but no interest in learning how to get there effectively as needed.
But again its just a hobby not something both critical to society as a whole and complex, like understanding global warming, so as long as people enjoy their ride its all good and we all will be OK in the end........or will we?? |
Here is a negative review of the K340 by a well known and competent reviewer Tyll Hertzens :
Is he right? No, not at all... But what he experienced at first listening , i experienced it too...😊 The difference is that he listened to the K340 a few hours and pass to an another headphone more easy to figure out ... Me i decided to optimize them...😁 There is no mismatch of the drivers as he claims and no comparison between my K340 before optimization and AFTER... I wrote that because you must know what you will go for before buying ...
By the way i bought by curiosity the K240 too... So good they are and they are, they dont touch the K340 by far... I bought them because i wanted to check the passive resonators workings in these two... Dr. Gorike who designed them was not a mere headphone designer, but a physicist and a genius in acoustic , and one of the founder of AKG ... The K340 was the greatest of all their flagship some compared it to the Onega Stax...But it is even better because of their natural deep bass and a better 3-D holographic image... A i will never upgrade it...The acoustic soundfield of this headphone cannot be replicated by one singular membrane headphone with no acoustic resonators and an empty singular acoustic chamber...
|
FWIW, re headphones, mahgister is correct in the sense that good headphone utilization is not a walk in the park. If ones reference is headphones just plugged into a component’s afterthought socket they don’t know a good headphones systems potential. And it can be quite impressive, but it’s a journey and not necessarily cheap, especially in finding your sonic match. I was lucky in getting a very good system going though for about $1000. $450 for phones and $550 for dedicated amp. NLA so don’t ask. But I did end up with other phones and amps that I now store in my closet. :-) |
No BEWARE...There were not to my taste right out of the box... It take me 6 months and 6 modification to like them ... It is not an easy to figure out headphone... But at 100 bucks pick them and sell me them after... If you look for a microscope yours Sony will be fine... If you look for a three- D soundfield... AFTER optimization they beat most headphones... They crushed the 9 others i know to pieces... 😉
|
i regret my room loss...😊 Because so good headphone are , and the K340 is really good, it is easier and more confortable to SEE music in a room... Especially for those who own average well known other headphones... 😁 I will listen to Grimani by curiosity...Thanks
|
I dont recommend to anybody to listen to anyone FIRST but i recommend reading serious acoustic articles and creating their own set of experiments in their dedicated room or in their living room FIRST ... For fun, learning is more fun than buying... Bingo, you nailed it AND there are some good videos available on you tube like the one I linked to by Anthony Grimani. |
Funny you should mention BestBuy I know, I know, the first three words of English you learned was "attention K-Mart shoppers". my bad. Forget the link I posted for you to get professional help, use this one instead.
As per my personal preferences for my room setup the Toole uses the same setup as me (right down to using a center height channel and using front and rear book shelves as height channels AND a VOG channel):
Abbey road studios mixing Pink Floyd immersive audio, same. I also use active speakers for bed channels and have active speakers mounted high as height channels, sounds better and save a lot of space and money. They are using Neumann active monitors, I use Paradigm Active Reference 40 and 20's:
Here is a takeaway about acoustics from both setups, notice the MLP is equidistant from the front and back of the room. This was a HUGE improvement in my room when I moved my MLP to same and NOT the one listed in the dolby specs which is closer to the rear wall FWIW. |
And the bigger question is, perhaps, who is going to train these folks? I wouldn’t want to send out a drivers ed student in a Rolls Royce. If you are Joe Six pack just install big subwoofers and hit the only switch you will ever need (full blast). Next there are certified calibrators that will calibrate a TV or a listening room (see CEDIA and https://homeacoustics.org/haa-training/) For the astute members that have already invested in a system it isn’t a big deal to buy a mic and measure. |
It’s always a good idea to NOT make recommendations without knowing more about the context in which the recommended component will be operating. I agree the result can often be money wasted, depending on exactly how one goes about it. The main thing is to buy things that can be returned or resold cost effectively if needed because you never know for sure until its operating in YOUR room. Given that, the smart thing for even high end affectionados to do is try less costly products that have good chance of doing the job well first before trying to go for broke. You can always make a change as needed. Otherwise you may be spending a lot for something that might have been achieved for much less. How many here actually do that? Don't know except that I do.
|
You are completely right about the importance of acoustic over even gear choice as the road to audiophile experience... Thanks for the articles... 😊
|
Is the OP an acoustician specialized in small room That is a GREAT question. The OP (as in moi) knew his limitations re: small room acoustics AND his budget. Thankfully I had the sense to get the acoustics right before blowing up my budget. There is some GREAT info available on the topic which I chose to avail myself of. (check page 2 here) and (chapters 4,5, and 10 here) This is a starting point and yes, I consulted with professional mixing stages, studio owners, the founder of Auro 3D, and installers of high end listening rooms and home theaters. I have had my measurements reviewed by professional acousticians. Maybe it was overkill but still a LOT cheaper than buying new gear. |
Expecting a novice to do what you would like to see in order to advise them is a bit beyond the pale. Does that make it wrong? A microphone is $100 and REW is available for whatever you care to donate (or not). How much money and time will that noob save by having objective data to share? These is no downside to having the data.
|
I never asked for advices people here for my room passive and active controls... (Is the OP an acoustician specialized in small room ? 😊) Why? Because small room acoustic is more complex than even great Hall acoustic... No general RECIPE will do and successfully accomodate your ears with the audio system and the room... I never explained all i did in my acoustic dedicated room anyway , because it was too complex and too " mad" to be understood by average people with no basic in acoustic...And it was not replicable in any other room exactly the same... And it was unesthetical because i used no-cost products...I used 100 Helmholtz resonators array all around me and the speakers, each one mechanically tuned, and homemade...And i used other non orthodox successful tools ( ionization and Schumann generators) .. Not just a mere passive treatment between Diffision/reflection/absorption in a balanced ratio as in some already complex but easy recipe ... When i posted images at the beginning i waited for the insults of all idiots... They came ... 😊 There is plenty of general recipe on the net for most people to use for the living room dimensions ...They will help not solve the acoustic problem completely but they will help a lot ... I dont recommend to anybody to listen to anyone FIRST but i recommend reading serious acoustic articles and creating their own set of experiments in their dedicated room or in their living room FIRST ... For fun, learning is more fun than buying... For most it will be living room and a general recipe and it will be enough ... For this there exist also acoustic articles on the net and computerized recipe ... But in a dedicated room as the one i created for me there is many aspects very different than a great Hall acoustic: In a great Hall you are in a collective acoustic experience with real musicians in a rectangle or in a spheric environment ... In a small dedicated room you accomodate the owners specific ears filters, the acoustic material content of the room , his complex geometry and specific topology, not only his dimensions, and you accomodate the speakers responses and the room response together for the specific ears filters of the owner... No recipe can do this... Here you must learn acoustic by experimenting with it... Or pay a professionnal acoustician 100,000 bucks for designing the room and it will be esthetical ..My room was a mad room.. My children were amazed and laughed but they listened and were very surprizingly pleased ... Anyway the most important part of an audio system is the room not the gear...That is basic... Then yes many people upgrade instead of paying attention to acoustic...OP is right here...But easy recipe is not enough to reach audio peak...Sorry... Acoustic of small room is very complex, most people cannot do it and anyway most of the times dont own a dedicated room anyway... As i said, in audiophile experience acoustic is the main road to go , not buying gear pieces... This cannot change anyway the fact that most people CANNOT DO IT ... If i was not retired i will have never go with acoustic experiments... it takes me a year, 7 day on 7 non stop for one year to learn how to do it to my satisfaction...And in fact it takes me longer...I dont count the multiple partial tryings... Anyway most people can be happy with a general acoustic recipe in a living room... I could not... Now i lost my room by fate... I go with headphones... It takes me 6 months to optimize one to rival my room... And i always disliked headphones... But i was lucky here ... Another story... |
FWIW kota 1, I think most folks who go to the trouble of posting their systems are far less concerned with getting advice about their rooms/set/equipment as they are about establishing themselves as audiophiles and giving other viewers some understanding where they are coming from when they give advise. Expecting a novice to do what you would like to see in order to advise them is a bit beyond the pale. If he could come that prepared he probably wouldn't need your advice. A better, if not realistic perhaps, expectation is for 'advisors' not to attempt to answer questions without sufficient information for them to give a good answer (which many do!). |
