First of all, I don’t own any high-end power cords, mostly because I can’t fit them behind my rack. Second, I am not trying to stir up controversy, as you will see from my question. I understand that the people who believe power cords make no difference argue that once the power gets into the component, the AC is converted to DC and the power supply of the component takes over completely. I think I have that right for the most part. So it that’s true, and it probably is from a traditional EE standpoint, why is it that I have not heard anyone say that power conditioners make no difference? I am not aware of anyone with a decent system ever saying that a Niagara or Triton or Audience teflon conditioner didn’t affect their sound, for good or for bad. So if the EE theory is true, wouldn’t power conditioners make no difference either? I have an Audience AR6T for almost 10 years and I think it made a big difference. BTW - I am not talking about Power Plants, which deal with voltage stabilization, which is a different topic. Obviously, if your AC voltage is way off, it's going to cause problems.
The problem is that it is not plain resistive load for 60Hz voltage. Typical LPS draws current in very short spikes of extremely high amplitude (5 fold or higher). These current spikes have high harmonic content (narrow squares), making cable's frequency response very relevant. In addition all the energy delivered to load comes on the outside of the wires in electromagnetic field. I'm not even sure if cable should have very low inductance and capacitance to preserve harmonic content of these current spikes, or should have medium inductance and capacitance to provide some filtering of it. Gage of the wire should also be adequate to 5 fold current. Also, there are extremely narrow spikes created by rectifier that, when backward polarized, is too slow to respond conducting in reverse direction, to rapidly snap back. Transformer filters some, but portion of it gets out, I'm sure.
I'm not saying I know why power cables make a difference, but it is not as simple as I = E/R (Indian sees Eagle over Rabbit).
Charyro is correct. With respect to say amps and preamps, if your AC supply voltage is grossly correct and consistent, boutique power cords and power supply conditioners are unnecessary because the amplification devices, tubes or transistors, use DC current which your amp or preamp produces from its power transformer, rectifier and in some cases, its voltage regulator. So if you want to improve the quality of current presented to these amplification devices, you would have to optimize components within the amp or preamp, the power transformer, rectifiier or voltage regulator, not add on external tweaks like boutique power cords or power conditioners.
I am not understanding what you are saying in your posting below. In high school physics we learned that voltage is analogous to physical water pressure, and current is like water flow in volume. So what you are saying is losing me.
I’m losing you because you’re missing my sarcastic sense of humor. Mr EE lectured us on how electricity is "not like that at all." There are important differences. But instead of taking time to explain any of that he shows off with his clever little insult. I get accused all the time of talking down to people but here we have a guy who starts right off with people "who don’t have a background in EE think electricity is like water, but that is a wrong analogy." Sheesh!
Wrong. It is an imperfect analogy. But it for sure is not wrong. As my witty little reply makes painfully clear.
I even swapped around gauge of wire with diameter of pipe. The analogy is darn near perfect. Voltage is exactly pressure. Just like water. We even call amps current.
Even getting into math, the analogy continues impressively well. V=IR is voltage equals amps times resistance. Substitute pressure in lbs/sq in for voltage, liters per minute for amperage, pipe flow resistance for ohms, the analogy is almost one for one. Far from wrong.
Imperfect? Certainly. Wrong? Not even. Item #269 on the list of why we would all be better off to ignore credentials and learn to think for ourselves.
PS- troidelover, did you spell it wrong or was triodelover already taken? ;)
I am not understanding what you are saying in your posting below. In high school physics we learned that voltage is analogous to physical water pressure, and current is like water flow in volume. So what you are saying is losing me.
I do believe power cables can make a difference, especially going to from the very basic inexpensive ones to ones that are made for better hifi gears.
The weakest spot of power cables is not the wire itself, and not the power plug or the inlet plug, but the termination of wire to either of them and the mating resistance. It is seldom done right and at full load these connections heat up quite a bit. Here is a thermal image: https://www.onfilter.com/cable-temperature The cables are industrial-grade with C15 and C19 inlet plugs. The loads are ~15A and ~20A on each correspondingly. You can see that wire itself isn't a problem for heat dissipation, but the connections are - it is hard to discern between the temperature on wire connection to the metal parts of C15 and C19, or the mating parts of the connectors. Whether this affects the sound is in the ear of beholder, but the lower the heat dissipation, reversely counted, the lower the resistance, and theoretically lower minute AC voltage variations based on load current. If you are curious to test it yourself, we use FLIR One Pro for these images.
Most people especially those who don't have background in EE think that electricity is like water, but that is a wrong analogy. How electricity flows is not very obvious. Unlike water, before you turn on the switch, the electrons are already in the equipment so it's not like the electricity flows from one place to another. It's not like that at all.
The same applies to power conditioners! Let's see some measurements of before and after ...
Feel free to post your own measurements. This is a hobbyist's group and not a scientific or engineering forum, so don't expect others here to post them for you. But you already knew that.
I understand that the people who believe power cords make no difference argue that once the power gets into the component, the AC is converted to DC and the power supply of the component takes over completely. I think I have that right for the most part. So it that’s true, and it probably is from a traditional EE standpoint, why is it that I have not heard anyone say that power conditioners make no difference?
You are right to point out the illogic.
The power supply does indeed convert AC to DC. The way this works, a power supply transformer first converts the line voltage, whatever it is, to the voltage the component requires. This first step is why some components can be changed to run on 120 or 240 or whatever. All they do is use different taps off the same transformer. The quality of this transformer has a big effect on performance, which is why so many manufacturers of top end gear brag about their transformers.
Then next AC is converted to DC using rectifier diodes. These devices allow power flow only one way. So after rectification we have DC. But here again the quality of the rectifiers has a big impact on sound quality. Fast smooth switching diodes yields a nice deep liquid sound. Cheap ones flat and grainy. The difference is easy to hear.
After rectification power supply caps are used to store the power for use by the circuit. Here again both the quantity and the quality of the caps has a huge influence on the sound.
The power supply theory the PC deniers rely upon is that since the power supply is so perfect nothing upstream can matter. But we have just shown nothing about the power supply is perfect! Not the transformers at the beginning. Not the diodes in the middle. Not the caps at the end. None of it. Not one single bit of it.
If they were consistent they would insist nothing matters. But they know enough to understand this is a non-starter. So they fall back on, well some things matter but not this. For which there is no basis.
Puritan make extremely flexible power cords, more flexible than many cords supplied "stock" with the unit. They'll fit anywhere you can fit a cheapie PC. http://www.puritanaudiolabs.com/products/mains-cables/ Check out youtube for videos showing just how flexible they are.
@chayro the short answer is that power conditioners include components and circuitry specifically to significantly filter stuff other than the 50Hz - 60Hz, 115V - 240V AC power signal. And this filtration can be measured and quantified. These components are not found on a power cable, generally speaking.
You Speak as if the mfgs had all the knowledge there is in 1960 or 70 and that no new knowledge exists today. Plus you overlook the need to build to a price point. Sure, the old stuff works and can sound pretty good. Likewise the old cars get you from point a to point b. And if you are satisfied with the old stuff then so be it. Butt to tell someone that is the best that can be done is totally erroneous You do not have the corner on the market of truth. Especially when you base it on your belief alone. THAT is religion Many of us have experienced the difference that tweaks can make. Sorry if you haven't. But your inexperience does not negate it's reality
Just because I don't understand it doesn't make it so. A long time power cord sceptic was shattered with a demonstration. I still can't figure out why 6ft of wire can make a difference but I heard it and it was dramatic. I heard the difference on the lead in grove it was that significant.
I did upgrade my power cables to a bigger gauge but didn't go gonzo on them. What I haven't tried is using a cheater plug to convert a three prong plug to a two prong. The theory is that because of the common ground used by all the equipment a two prong plug eliminates all the extra wire causing distortion.
Whacky yes but makes as much sense to me as anything else. I'll report back after my trip to home depot
In my youth, taking things apart, looking at the lightweight common wiring, soldering, parts inside vintage equipment (speakers, preamps, amps, receivers, tape recorders) (McIntosh, Fisher, Scott, Thorens, SME, Viking, Garard, AR, Sony, Panasonic, Teac, Onkyo ...) from late 50's and early 60's, then SS late 60's, 70's, up to current stuff convinced me that MOST (not all) upgrades that came along are like a religion: It works, IF you believe!. Stop Believing, You're Out!
That was the period when those 'now inferior' parts resulted in great success and long lasting reputations for makers. No special fuses, cords, just darn good audio engineering/manufacturing using currently available parts, transformers a big defining characteristic. Specific audio designers solutions yielded small but perceptible differences.
Later, SS, the miniscule traces on circuit boards,
the thin fuse wire, the miniscule diameters of cartridge guts, jumpers, and tonearm wiring make you wonder: A FUSE is going to alter the sound? "You better believe it".
Nonetheless, 'why not try?' sets in, and an industry exists. I probably could change my speaker wires back to lamp cord, my Phono Cord back to the temporary $6. one I used while waiting for the $400. Ortofon one. My interconnects back to .... and my system would sound great because the preamp/amp/tubes are noise free, make the preferred difference, the coloration, and the speakers/space make the huge difference revealing anything and everything.
Avoiding or solving problems or mismatches, finding and replacing errant parts, tube type selection, gets you back to great. Upgrading, tighter specs, hmmmm.
Find efficient speakers you love, and then find the color you want to feed them with.
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