mix of diffusion and absorption for back wall, ceiling and window on left. a carpet is a must. other then that I really dont think your equipment is the cause of your lack of depth. Try placing speaker further into the room and farther apart. play with toe in. these physical adjustments and additions to room will make most difference, as would changing speaker to one with a wider and more even horizontal dispersion. speakers with wider horizontal dispersion have been tested to sound better with properties of proper stereo imaging and depth.
How to add depth for classical music
While listening to classical music, especially the orchestral pieces (e.g. Beethoven Piano/Violin Concertos, Symphonies), I find that my system is not giving me the depth, such as layers of instruments etc. My listening environment is not ideal. I have hard wood floor and tray ceiling. On one side, I have windows and on the other side, I have a long corridor.
Here's my system:
Would a new preamp/amp or integrated amp help? I've auditioned Moon (SimAudio) 340iX and thought it's more opened than my Parasound. But for some strange reason, I didn't really like the sound. Maybe I need to audition again.
Would room treatment help? But my options are limited because of my room.
Love to hear your thoughts.
Here's my system:
- Parasound P5 & A23
- Sonus Faber Venere 3.0
- Bluesound Node2i
- Chord Qutest
Would a new preamp/amp or integrated amp help? I've auditioned Moon (SimAudio) 340iX and thought it's more opened than my Parasound. But for some strange reason, I didn't really like the sound. Maybe I need to audition again.
Would room treatment help? But my options are limited because of my room.
Love to hear your thoughts.
34 responses Add your response
+1 d2girls. You don't need different gear, you need better room treatment. Imaging issues are usually in the plane as necessary room treatment. So, if you are missing depth, the problems are going to be behind the speakers, and behind you. Talk to GIK acoustics, they give great advice, reasonable prices and effective products. |
Agreed with two posts above me regarding room treatments...but I think you may also want to consider a single (or pair) of subs. Your speakers only go down to 38Hz and that's likely limiting the depth of sound stage and layering that you seek. So treat the room first, then listen. Then consider subs if you want to take it to the next level. |
I have no experience with your equipment, but based on user comments I've seen here and elsewhere about your Parasound electronics, the Node2i, and the Qutest, and after doing a bit of research on the speakers, I'm struck by exactly one thing: The speakers are **extremely** light relative to their size, as audiophile-oriented speakers go (45.5 x 13.3 x 17.2 inches; 47 pounds). Which leads me to suspect that they are the weak link in your system, not only in terms of the compromised image depth you refer to, but probably in other respects as well. Just a thought to consider. Good luck. -- Al |
Components and wire will make a huge improvement in depth regardless of the room. Because usually people have already done pretty much everything they can with speaker placement. The main thing you can do to get more depth is have the speakers out at least a few feet from the front and side walls. Once that is done you can still squeeze out a bit more from acoustic panels- absorbers or diffusers- but not much. Very little. Certainly very little compared to what you can get with better components and wires. But components and wires calls for a good deal of research and auditioning. A set of Synergistic Research HFT for the speakers will be much more effective. HFT totally make the speakers disappear, by making the sound stage much more palpably real, both left to right as well as front to back. If its on the recording with depth believe me you will hear depth. Compared to acoustic panels HFT are far less obtrusive and way more effective. I've got a lot of experience with both. Its not even close. Look at the difference. The panels are hard to miss. The HFT are all over the place but I had to shoot closeups to show them. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 You can try just one speaker kit, use half on each speaker, which is how I started when I wasn't sure. Then when you know how they work you can look at your room and where their recommended placement and figure out how many more you might want and where to put them. I would also try ECT as they produce the same 3D imaging effect but being placed on components instead of walls they are even less room dependent. All with money back guarantee. Again, tried all this stuff. HFT are more effective than panels for the money. Anyone recommends acoustic panels, ask how they compare to HFT. More to the point, ask IF they compared. |
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I’ve managed to get the best imaging and depth I’ve ever gotten from a stereo system...in a room utterly devoid of any specific room treatments, and in a room with its share of supposed issues. What I did was do the best I could to place the speakers and my listening chair as far out into the room as reasonably possible while keeping suitable distance between speakers and chair. I got out the measuring tape and carefully put my listening chair as close to dead center between the speakers as possible. I experimented with toeing the speakers in, having them fire straight ahead, and making it so the speakers fired away from each other. I eventually adjusted them so they fire very slightly inward. I experimented with speaker grills both on and off. I left them on (!). Agreed, I’ve got some pretty decent components -- such as a PrimaLuna Integrated Amp, Nola Boxer speakers and a Mytek Brooklyn Bridge, but nothing remotely state-of-the-current-art. I also have absolutely zero electronic imaging gizmos. Finally, I got to tell you I’m pretty much a classical guy. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8753#&gid=1&pid=1 |
Do yourself a favour and ignore millercarbon Also better ignore "In my opinion, Chuck has achieved audio nirvana- that thing about being drawn into the music and hearing more and more detail, hearing the inflection of the voice whether it’s pain, joy, or spite (Cry Me a River). Horns were smooth, never harsh. The sound was wide and big, speakers disappeared" https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 Because, you know, snake oil. I’ve managed to get the best imaging and depth I’ve ever gotten from a stereo system...in a room utterly devoid of any specific room treatments, and in a room with its share of supposed issues. What I did was do the best I could to place the speakers and my listening chair as far out into the room as reasonably possible while keeping suitable distance between speakers and chair. I got out the measuring tape and carefully put my listening chair as close to dead center between the speakers as possible. If you had any idea how many times I’ve said this exact same thing. Look at my system page. Yes I even bothered taking a picture just to drive home the point of how critical precise speaker placement is. But hey, tape measure, sounds like snake oil, better to just ignore. |
I can't listen to classical on any of my solid state gear. I'm surprised nobody has identified the weak link as the Parasound amps. I crave detailed, liquid midrange with punch with ensemble music and classical. Parasound solid state didn't get me there. Great amps for what they do, but not for that. Have you considered mixing a tube amp or preamp to get the depth and layering you're looking for? If it were me, I'd throw a shag rug down with a 1/2" felt rug pad underneath and see the improvement in sound that gets you before spending more money on treatments. This alone can work wonders, cheaply. After that, try a tube preamp before the parasound amps and see if that does it for you. If you're still not there, sell the parasounds and try a modern tube amplifier that can handle the 90db sensitivity of your speakers. The greatest improvement in sound I've ever experienced in my two channel setup coming from reference solid state gear, was adding a McGary SA-1 amplifier and a MicroZOTL preamp. I stayed up until 3am my first two nights in a row because i could not believe the auditory bliss I was experiencing, it was addictive, and it made my Legacy speakers sound better than any of the demos I've heard at RMAF, Axpona, or CAF which I attend every year. If those are out of your price range, you can look for a used Primaluna or Cayin amp. Great value! Full disclosure, I'm a dealer for both McGary and LTA (MicroZOTL amps/preamps). But I only became one because I had never heard sound like that in my system before, and I wanted to provide demos in my area for audiophiles and forum members from here and AVS. Nothing from PS Audio, Rogue, Parasound, or any of the chi-fi tube amps got me there, but that's just part of this terrible affliction. The search for the end game sound keeps us all on the mouse wheel! If you're in southern California I will happily demo for you. Either way, I urge you to seek out a local dealer and audition wherever you are. Online reviewers will usually lead you astray. Stay vigilant :) -Alex |
As good as the price-value relationship of Bluesound Node 2i is, upgrading to a Lumin U1 Mini made all the difference in my system. So many more layers, holographic soundstage, more details, extended bass.... Particularly appreciated with classical music. Honestly I did not expect this kind of improvement. I did experiment also with different, expensive amps but the increase in SQ was nowhere near the impact of upgrading to the Lumin. You already have an excellent DAC which will complement the Lumin. The return per Dollar of this investment would be much bigger as replacing your other components. Good luck with your next step, its always a bit of an adventure. |
roberjerman Depth perception exists in the recording. >>>> +1 The acoustic space is captured on the recording. In the old days digital time delay like Audio Pulse Model One created a synthetic soundstage with multiple amps and multiple speakers. But as systems and methods and tweaks improved a purer, more realistic soundstage could be generated with two channel stereo. |
Hi, room effects are critical but positioning of your speakers has the greatest effect. Try to position them further apart and close your listening distance, then toe in. Height of listening plays a good role also. True in some recordings the depth and ambience is not so great but the holographic experience should be audible. |
I'll echo others in saying that if you want to spend your money wisely, ignore any advice from millercarbon. Image depth is almost always dependent on how far out your speakers are from the front wall (the wall behind them). The further out, the deeper the soundstage. I endorse many other comments on room treatment. The SF Venere's were an entry-level product from SF and frankly not up to the standard of some of SF's costlier designs. I auditioned the 3.0's years ago. In a brief in-store audition they were initially impressive, but then I came to realize that that was because of what I called a technicolor sonic presentation, which will tire over time. Kind of like the way TVs are demo'd in stores, with all the settings maxed out. But I think a lot of what you are experiencing can be tamed with room treatment. Remember, too--there are several threads on this subject--that a full-scale symphony orchestra is, by far, the hardest kind of music to reproduce convincingly in a domestic space, so it's never going to be as satisfying, mutatis mutandis, as, say, a well-recorded jazz trio. |
Roberjerman, from somewhere in cyberspace, “Yes. I have the Audio Pulse Model One Digital Time-Delay System. It was purchased new I believe in 1977 for over $700. The manual is very informative and well printed and is spiral bound. The effect on the sound in the room is very live sounding. One feature it has is the ability to make Mono recordings have a Stereo quality about them. Audio Pulse uses ninety separate shift register IC’s to provide delays of 8, 12, 22, 36, 58, and 94 milliseconds of discrete delay. Reverberation decay time: variable from 0.2 to 1.2 seconds, and those times are measured as the time for the reverb output to fall by 60 db after a transient.” |
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To add to my earlier comment about the extremely light weight of the speaker, relative to its size, as well as to the experienced-based comment by @twoleftears , a couple of brief excerpts from the 6moons review: That the depth perspective would have been less built out or specific than very highly time-optimized impulse-tweaked speakers—Anthony Gallo's Strada 2 for example—was par for this course. This included a certain looseness in the mid/upper bass registers.... My suggestion would be to first upgrade the speakers, then optimize placement and do whatever may be practical in terms of room treatment. Good luck. Regards, -- Al |
What are some good recordings to test depth/layers?The Wand of Youth on EMI. Play the track with the Tame Bears and the Wild Bears. Any Decca or British RCA recording with Kenneth Wilkenson as the recording engineer. Most of the early RCA Living Stereos or Mercury Living Presence have plenty of depth. Basically a good hall and a 2 or 3 mic recording technique will do the job. Spotlight mics almost always ruin depth. For the most part on this account, unless told otherwise stay away from Deutsche Grammaphone (although they do have good pressings and performances). |
Good suggestions by Ralph ( @atmasphere ). Also, some years back Chesky remastered a few of the recordings originally engineered by Kenneth Wilkinson and issued them on CD, with spectacular results. I don’t know if they are available on any of the streaming services (I note that you only listed a streamer as a source, although perhaps you also have the Node 2i linked to a computer that can play CDs), and the CDs are no longer in print, but you may be able to find some of them at Amazon or eBay in used condition. I would particularly recommend the following, both of which are fantastic IMO in terms of both performance and sonics: Dvorak "New World Symphony," Jascha Horenstein conducting the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, Chesky CD31. (You will not believe this was recorded in 1962!) Brahms "Symphony No. 1," Jascha Horenstein conducting the London Symphony Orchestra, Chesky CD19 (also recorded in 1962). Regards, -- Al |