AG Duos'
make that room size requirement
40x40x40
How much of High End Audio is Horn Speakers?
An audio friend of mine had been discussing my future speaker purchase. We discussed, Harbeth, Devore, Spendor, Audio Note and other more traditional speaker brands. A week or two later he called an asked me what speakers I had purchased. When I told him Klipsch, there was a little silence on the other end of the line. Our call probably ended a little sooner then usual. I could tell he was disappointed in my purchase. Is it the Klipsch name that illicits this type of response or is it Horn speakers in general? After thinking about some of the other Audiophiles in town, a good deal of them are on the low power high efficiency speaker route and more than a few I know are using Horns. Does anyone know how the high end market share is divided? Is there a stigma associated with certain lower cost Horn speakers? Or is this just Klipsch? I now own a pair of Klipsch Cornwalls and am enjoying the journey associated with tweaking the sound to my taste. Is there an unwritten rule that friends don’t let friends buy Klipsch?
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I have owned Avantgarde Duos since around 2007, like them very much, have done a few things to improve them and I don’t agree that they are a conservative definition of a horn in many respects- no compression drivers, horn mouths, yes, and hybrid woofers with a plate amp bass. Believe me, nothing said here detracts from what these are, or how much I enjoy them- I don’t think it is accurate to say they define what a horn speaker is-- which, to me, would include horn loaded woofers and upper bass. Alas, that is a more involved topic.
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So to be clear, AG’s do not have compression drivers??? I have no idea whats the components ina AG Duo or any of their models. All I know is AG’s have a very high reputation of delivering beautiful horn style music,,, but again, these big horns would not work in my requirements. Its too much of a **good thing** lets say. I listen very near field,,, a the moment,,, when I move in 2 yrs ,,well then sure I will have a hopefully better listening room. But that is one issue with the AG;’s, you need a moderate size room, nothing less than say 15 wide X20 deep, best with a 15 ft ceiling. My rm is short in all 3 dimensions. Horns, REAL horns I’m refering to, need breathing space. As i state above Horns have their issues. Whereas FR can fit in any size room, 8x8x8 to 20x20x20 and sound beautiful. FR Single driver(System, I run dual FR, a single FR would not work for me) have the least amount of issues vs any/all other speaker designs. In my book **least issues * = the superior design. |
noticed that many people will follow the majority of what is trending, meaning if horns are the new craze, they all will be into it and then the next idea pops up.
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One defining element about the USA consumer/aka american culture in general, is whats popular, in the spot light, famous, most talked about, advertized.
Then everyone just follows the pack.
ConsumerIsm, commercialism.
back in the 60's/70's, we all just followed what everyone else was doing. A few smart folks thought through things a bit more and made wiser purchase decisions.
I believe the asian audiophiles may have had a short stint w xover type speakers,, but dumped them for FR, and now thats pretty much their speakers by choice/ based on experience.
Remember it was in Japan that the FR tradition was BARELY just on its last breath,, kept alive with some high tech genius in Japan designing the legendary Coral Beta8.
Had it not been for this lone genius tech in FR speaker design,,, not sure we would be where we are at in the newest FR speakers.
Lowthers had issues. Fostex deserves honorable mention...
But really its the tech behind the Coral Beta 8 that is the root and branch to the new flowering in FR technology.
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@mozartfan mozartfan, I disagree with your statement that: "we have to define ’horn’. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ easy Avant Garde" I have owned Avantgarde Duos since around 2007, like them very much, have done a few things to improve them and I don't agree that they are a conservative definition of a horn in many respects- no compression drivers, horn mouths, yes, and hybrid woofers with a plate amp bass. Believe me, nothing said here detracts from what these are, or how much I enjoy them- I don't think it is accurate to say they define what a horn speaker is-- which, to me, would include horn loaded woofers and upper bass. Alas, that is a more involved topic. |
the fact that so many that own them are so quick to start changing them trying to trying to figure out exact what is the problem
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There are horns,, and then there are ~~THe Royal Horn Systems~~~~
2 types,
The 1st type are not mega expensive,, but as you say,, after some time start to wear a bit thin,, fatigue sets in,,,
Then we have
~~The Royal Horn Systems~~~ Mega bucks, requires Buchingham palace suze listening rooms and many other issues. Which folks hang on to with their mega priced SET amps.
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no intentions of ever being connected in my system ever again. It’s true that you may encounter some issues with electrostats
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The ~~~TRUTH~~ of the matter of which you speak,, is that horns have their issues and ESL/Stats also have their very own signature issues. Lets all be frank and truthful for a moment. vs FR, I find has the least issues. (actually in my set up and requirements, perfect as perfect can be = zero issues, all ++++’s, no negatives) Here i can make this easy Horns /Issues ESL/Stats/Issues Full Range /issues?? where, how, in what way. |
To answer the OP’s question, we have to define ’horn’. Probably an XO-point of 1 kHz or lower, give or take 100hz for driver-integration. This includes reviewed & discussed brands Tannoy, Emerald Physics, Spatial Audio and of course reg horns like JBL & Klipsch. Others that seem popular incl Avantgarde (esp after-market), Volti and Pure Audio Project. There are more horns, but they get expensive (Oswalds Mill and Classic Audio). More are buying them, as their colorations are reduced, they blend better w/ cone bass-drivers and transistor-switch noise (in SS amps) is removed. |
After owning and modifying a few sets of Klipsch Heressy both series 1 and 2, I have noticed that many people will follow the majority of what is trending, meaning if horns are the new craze, they all will be into it and then the next idea pops up. That being the absolute need to start changing out xover parts without even testing things first. (One more thing I don't understand is how replacing caps with low ESR caps could ever make them sound "better" unless you were the one who designed that crossover and know that the ESR was not figured into the design, if you need to add a small resistor to a circuit to get a better response, why not use a cap with that resistance already built into that cap? Saves on money and production costs). In the case of Klipsch, there seems to be most buyers instantly feel a need to try to make them sound "better" by changing out every single thing except the one part that would greatly improve the speaker. So why buy a speaker that has such a long history of dissatisfaction? If you want to buy something just to replace everything in the cabinet (when the fact is the main problem is the cabinet itself) why not just start from scratch and DIY something that’s been proven time after time to sound better and cost a fraction of a brand name manuacturers set. First thing to understand is parts used in manufactured speakers are not going to use the best available and you’ll find that most drivers used (unless they are made in house directly by them) are available to everyone and many manufacturers use the same exact drivers (Vifa, Peerless, Seas, etc..) regardless to who made the speakers but somehow those same drivers mixed an matched will produce vastly different sounds as proven by reviews. If you look at what’s happening in trending designs you will notice that there are certain distinct types of drivers that have been used. As stated by another poster, those types all have different things that make them good or bad. What the real problem is the fact that a new item has a patent on it. It may be the only one made of that type but it’s not the best made of the type, meaning although it may work fine at first it might deteriorate or gravity might deform it over time. Examples of this are easy to find. Glues dry out or turn to gel, then the public views all of those types as bad based on the original versions. Petents run out then others will try their hand at making improved versions of what was once the "best" but now time has passed and that type has been replaced by the next best thing, that improved old version is not likely to get recognition unless it’s introduced as a new technology once again to grab buyers sttention.
For some reason there are some type of dtivers that seem to be more of a mystery andd harder to work with successfully do to the huge amount of variables that can be changed. Horns seem to have a challenging idea that has not been perfected, proof is the fact that so many that own them are so quick to start changing them trying to trying to figure out exact what is the problem (obviously they heard other speakers that sound much better or they'd never be changing anything) If they did work perfectly you’d never see such a huge number of owners changing out every single part in an attempt to correct them, although few will admit they sound awful. A better example is the electrostatic speaker, if you’ve very owned a true electrostatic (not just Martin Logans, there’s a variety of makers if you look into them) you would know exactly what I’m saying, the owners of electrostatic drivers are never or very few are interested in modifying them ever! You just never hear of his being done, no threads, no entire websites dedicated to modifying electrostatic speakers. Once you hear electrostats in your own home and have that chance to hear a horn next to the electrostats you will be wondering exactly what you were even thinking when you thought a horn sounded good. My Klipsch have spent their last 5 years in a closet with no intentions of ever being connected in my system ever again. It’s true that you may encounter some issues with electrostats but they are worth it no matter what happens. The only real draw back is you’ll have to be without them for a while. I can say that I have some back up electrostatss around in case one does need attention simply because I have tried to dig out some other regular or horn speakers to fill in and found it was better to not listen to my stereo without the electrostats. Once you hear the electrostats you will find other speakers are putting out a huge amount of distortion and are intolerable (also lack the ability to be correctedl). I’m in that position right now with both sets of electrostats needing repair to 1 of their drivers. I have pulled out 10 other sets of higher quality speakers and I just turned it off and I’m going to pick up another set of electrostats. I’m posting all my other speakers to sell them since I know that I’ll never waste my time connecting them in my system again. |
@coachpoconnor Spectacular choice of electronics! Enjoy your toys...! |
Congratulations on the Cornwalls. While your buddies are contemplating their next speaker you will still be enjoying yours I’ve had Forte IV since February and love them . They sound even better since upgrading my electronics They sound like live music, not many speakers in their respective price convey a “live” sound like they can .
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@coachpoconnor You're on right track with Coincident Statement and future Frankenstein. I use Statement MkII and custom built 300B monoblocks or Coincident 845SET with the Klipschorns. All are wonderful match for horns, different flavors with amps, but both great. When you get the Frankensteins be sure to use top line power tubes, as for Statement I've found Linlai Elite solid plate best, followed by Psvane WE, then Linlai Elite mesh plate, any of the cheaper variety will sound bleached in comparison. |
Klipsch speakers are very particular about what you feed them. If this is a hassle for you, move on. They are also very sensitive to placement. Again, hassle for you, move on. Lastly, there have been numerous improvements in the Heritage line in the last few years. Don't base your opinion of Klipsch on a pair of 70s Lascalas that you heard back in the 80s being driven by a receiver in a less than optimal room. This happens a lot and people post their opinion as fact. The new Heritage speakers are able to compete with anything in their price range and not be embarrassed. Sometimes way above too.
As for @jasonbourne52 and his measurement fetish, JA measured the Khorn on a dolly in Art's driveway. This is a speaker that is designed to use the corner of a room as the last fold of the bass horn. What would you expect that graph to look like?
Oz
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Sorry, horns belong on the top of poles at HS football stadiums. You cannot understand how they mess up sound reproduction until you listen to them next to an accurate speaker like Magnepans. Before you buy, give this a try IN YOUR ROOM. If you still want horns, fine. I think you will figure it out, however. Cheers! |
These horns tick all the boxes if you have a few hundred grand to spare. "Media Acclaim & Awards | Vox Olympian | Living Voice" https://www.livingvoice.co.uk/acclaim-munich-highend.html
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Thanks everyone…I didn’t come at this change blind… I had some Epos speakers that were very bright and I sure didn’t want that again. When I worked as a Audio Salesmen in the 70’s I sold JBL speakers and I hated them. To be fair our showroom was horrible, so they probably didnt get a fair shake. So I did have some anxiety about Horns. I just finished Room treatment reorganization. The added/ rearranged absorption has helped the Bass response. Change some cables back to Zu Event.., and that has been good. I also purchased a Coincident Statement Linestage to hopefully go along with some future Frankenstein 300b monoblocks. So far I’m impressed how well they sound with the Pass XA25. Thanks for everyone’s comments. |
I have Wilson's for two-channel and Klipsch for Home Theater. I had the K-Horns and felt that they were super harsh (could have been the volumes we played them at too). I got the Chorus II's, love em. They are still fun to listen to. I heard Avante Gardes a couple of years ago, what struck me is everything was fun to listen to - no matter what you fed them, sounded good. If it is a bad recording, my Wilsons are going to make that track unlistenable. If you like the Klipsch - awesome! I want to hear the new PS Audio speakers - they look very interesting. |
Here's the deal... no speaker is perfect each type has strengths and weaknesses (conventual sealed box & vented, electrostatic, ribbon, horn, and a few others). There are so many types due to people's preferences between speed, dynamics, imaging, resolution, tonal color, frequency range, AND cost. I have made the journey over the years between several types and top brands and have landed back with horn speakers for the last 3 years and continue to love them. Do not be detoured by what others preferences are or brand snobs. This hobby is a journey, enjoy the ride and discovery along the way. |
Klipsch have good potential ,for the inner Xover is the weak link, even their latest model the Xover parts are very cheap and not even a average level of 6-7 15 being the best theXover being the ❤️ or 🧠 of the speaker ,this is not a isolated incident even in $15 k speakers None have top parts go to Humble homemade Hifi Capacitor test , you will see what I mean Duelund are the most expensive and at top level , And byw all Copper foils are the best poly caps are sprayed metal on plastic and paper Jupiter, Milflex ,VH audio Copperfoil are also very good each sounds a bit different , resistors Mundorfs new Copperfoil resistors are the most detailed , path audio is a close second a bit warmer , many use cheap Solen caps, or from Taiwan ,even in Harbeth ,revel and many others ,even Wilson ,they bough5 Rel caps kthey are better then average but not near the top.I told the engineers at Marten Logan on their flagship $80 k speaker mid grade Mundorf Evo capacitors Really ,a $20 cap ,at least put in Mundorfs best silver gold oil which are very good , ifyou can’t see many companies cheat ,also gold brass connectors ,when copper gold is 3 x less resistive ,more conductive , I am just making a point after modding Xovers for 20 years now. |
To answer the OP’s question, years ago, Klipsch did have name cache with audiophiles. (about 45 years ago) That eroded as boutique American brands appeared as well as the great British brands. At that point, the image of Klipsch became less exclusive, because they expanded beyond the Heritage range to less expensive models as well as moving into home theatre. Meanwhile, they still produced a few of the Heritage models, and steadily improved them. Today, with the renewed interest in the improved Heritage models due to the enthusiastic professional and consumer reviews, I think that the Klipsch image has really regained some of its former luster and prestige. I have owned Khorns, Cornwalls and still use Epic CF 4’s as my main speakers,. This past weekend in fact, I bought a pair of KG 3.2 off of Craigslist for $150.00 for my shed, and they sound amazingly good. |
And, as some of you may know, a lot of horns conducive to modding, many sources for attaining your sound preferences. Volti mid horns part of my mods, so, yes Volti another horn to pay attention to. I did try damping my original mid horns, not to my liking, band aid approach, Volti tractrix fit the bill.
Sound staging, imaging was concern of mine coming from Merlins, speakers designed from scratch for maximal ss and imaging. My Klipschorns don't really give up much to Merlins here, even in stock form not bad at all, always strong dimensional phantom center image. With mods, strong aspect of overall performance, and I'm a sound stage, image freak.
My take on horns is timbre purists assume you can't get natural timbre out of horns, not true. Horns come in many flavors, well designed, engineered horns made with natural materials critical in attaining top flight performance here.
Speaking of field coils, couple years ago visited Classic Audio Loudspeakers Brighton Michigan, specializes in field coils. Didn't get a chance to listen as he was leaving for show that particular day. Had lots of JBL cabinets at time I visited, been meaning to return. |
First and foremost, if you like your Klipsch Horns that is all that matters. Screw everyone else. I have owned higher-end Wilson Audio and Sonus Faber Speakers. I now own horn speakers and will NEVER go back. I listened to over 50 different pairs of speakers around the country before deciding on Viking Acoustic Grande Voix Dual horns. IMO, horn speakers are not as popular in the USA and there are not a lot of horn dealers. That in itself is a problem. Then you have the WAF factor. Some horns may not look like they would fit into room decor. Horns are very popular in Europe and Asia and some of the better horns are made in Poland. I had considered Klipsch, JBL, hORN Universum, BD Design, Tune, Deja Vu, AvanteGarde, Charney, PureAudioProject, Aer, Cessaro, Volti to name a few prior to ending up with Viking. Klipsch and JBL are readily available in the USA so they are more popular at a nice price-point. Enjoy your Klipsch and don't worry about your friends. |
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@acman3 So they should not be part of the discussion. I really do not care just making a point that only JBL and Klipsch are ever mentioned. Not a horn guy. |
Party pooper, :-) There are some lively horns for sure, that's half the thing with horns tinkering until you change types.. I still like messing with them at someone else's house. I like JBL C45 Rangers, LOTs of fun. Say what you will they sound good in most rooms. Maybe curtains, and carpet. Tannoy makes some nice sounding units too. Regards |
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This is exactly what sold me on the La Scalas. The Klipschhorns were even better, but I don’t have the space for those monsters. I would need to build a new house with a space to support that sound field. The Klipsch heritage line is stunning. |
There is a lot of anti-horn sentiment out there. I had no interest in horns prior to 1980's era Klipschorns falling into my lap. Prior to that I had used a series of open baffle and box speakers, very much liked sound staging of open baffles, box speakers not as much. But then coherence and timbre were extremely important to me as well. Last speaker prior to Klipschorns were extreme modded Merlin VSM-MM, I was not unhappy with Merlins (still own), but intention for any replacement was another open baffle speaker.
This is when Klipschorns came into my possession, certainly curious how they'd sound but with with very little expectation I'd like, thought I'd flip them if not enjoyed. So, first listening, totally original including crossovers, this sense of live performers in room struck me, I'd never heard this characteristic to such an extent prior. I had issues with timbre, coherence, tonality, but this uncanny sense of live performers in room made me keep them, with intention of modding to fit my needs. And so, here we are a few years down the road, my modded Klipschorns will stay in my possession til I die!
I'm no Klipsch Heritage expert, I've never even heard other Klipsch, but I assume this uncanny sense of live performers in room is initial fascination with the line. Even in stock form, highly resolving and transparent, and I see continuing evolution in attaining more natural tonality, timbre.
Add to this ability to run horns with various low powered SET, each with special characteristics, one can really voice or flavor system to heart''s delight. |
