The architecture of a DAC can matter too. Many on here have bought 8+ year old PS Audio Perfect Wave DACs from The Music Room, or direct from PS Audio, and say they sound great for the money - even compared to new DACs costing about the same. They were on close out or refurbed because their newer one is now out. They use an FPGA chip which had a firmware update a year or so ago making them sound great, especially at ~1/3rd the original price.
My only concern is that well, everything will at some point wear out, but we hopefully can assume that modern quality devices made since 2010 use capacitors that don't change value over time and they should last decades.
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Yesterday, I just picked up my Schitt Yggi+ OG after it was sent to Colorado for a high-end audio fest. I wanted the people there to compare top end DACs against the Yggi+ and give me some feedback.
The person I picked up the DAC from is a musician with incredible hearing. He told me he liked the Mola Mola Tambaqui a bit more, but he did say something that really surprised me. He said that in a blind test even he likely could not tell the difference. I have a Schitt Yggi+ LIM also and I am going to convert it to the More Is Better because it sounds more like the OG. Both of the DACs mentioned cost $15k. |
I have a Oppo 105, a Schiit Yiggy , and a Schiit Uber Bifrost that’s almost 10 years old. The old Bifrost is significantly better than the Oppo. My Yiggy is off to Schiit for a Unison card and the Bifrost also bests the DAC in my Innuos Pulse Mini and my Cambridge DAC Magic 200. Avoid the original Bifrost, but the Uber or newer punches way above its price point ! Cheers, Mike B. |
@kraftwerkturbo the Gumby outperforms that oppos internal DAC by leaps and bounds. It just opens up the music and adds depth to such a greater extent. |
Within a given DAC budget (say, ~$5k) I'd go with a used ref. model - even if it's quite a few years old - rather than a new "mid-level" ditto. From my chair the DAC chip evolution, with a few exceptions, has if not stagnated then moved very slowly over some years now. The real culprit is its implementation, the quality of the analogue output stage, PSU and overall construction. Some recent DAC chips, like the dual-board chip from Hypex, provide for a staggering resolution and transparency, but I find it comes at the expense of tonal authenticity - i.e.: it robs tonal richness to my ears, even if it possibly cuts away what's considered excessive "fat" and which then that calls for substantial re-tweaking of acoustics (less absorption), speaker placement, etc. |
An audiophile DAC goes well beyond just getting the major sounds right. It is highly refined. So the thsss of a drumstick hitting a cymbal sounds like brass. the highly complex sound of a trumpet or sax has the full complexity for a brass instrument not just a cartoonish impression. The human voice becomes fully fleshed out. Very often on budget equipment, Schiit being a good example, the voice is recognizable but thin and a bit week... heard through a really good DAC it has real serious midrange weight.. I am not a fan of Tony Bennett and Frank Sinatra.... but the difference through a great DAC (with appropriate associated equipment) is simply astonishing... the power and depth of their voices. While, they are not my cup of tea... on a great system with a great DAC you can’t help but understand why they are so famous.
Some examples of Audiophile DACs would be Berkely Alpha Reference 3, Audio Research Reference 9, dCS Bartok (although I find this a bit thin... polite as it often referred to), MSB. |
Transport I like, and use, Cambridge CXC...CD Players I like Marantz CD6006(7) and Rotel CD11 Tribute - I own both, just sold the Oppo...I liked the Schiit Modius DAC better than the Modi...these are simply my preferences, all within your cost parameters, based on owning all equipment I mentioned...lots of people love the Oppo stuff... |
jl35 no so much 'older' or 'personal preference' but rather non audiophile cost constraint (I just don't want to spend crazy, ehem I mean 'auidophile' money). Judging the Oppo 103 as transport, SACD and DAC: name alternatives in the below $400 market. Ditto for Shiit Modi 3+ (under say $150) Musical Fidelity M1 (under say $250) Matching TRANSPORT for above external DAC (say under $250) As always: Bang for Buck rules! |
Looking at the DAC market as a whole and the progression of the digital pathway with streaming & DAC units: option of buying a decent used price DAC of the last 8 yrs...say a Berkley Audio Alpha 3 2018 (not the Reference) or a Mola Mola compared to the newer Schiit or one of the other newer builds of the past 1-2 years....thoughts? Or, going with a newer lower price-point DAC and waiting say 5 years to upgrade then? Several of the "extreme" price-point systems ( MSB, Bartok, and others ) are coming out with trickle-down tech but even their entry level systems are very pricey. Is DAC progression still early; will it benefit from newer tech coming? How much emphasis goes toward...software/algorithm vs chip/chips vs shielding/electronics? Is one side reaching build limits? |
When I bought my OPPO-103 12 years ago, I thought it was a terrific DVD Player. After upgrading, I was disappointed in the OPPO as a CD Player or transport/streamer...I think as you're looking at older DACs, personal preference becomes even more important, and there will be less agreement from others... |
A lot of significant sonic improvements over the last 8yrs especially in the ~3-8k price range.
Not familiar with this DAC’s performance
It is much harder to sonically differentiate better DACs below 2k as better parts and engineering, in high-end limited niche market, drive up costs. Whether it’s worth the sonic change/improvement depends on the transparency of the audio chain and the OP’s subjective preferences. |
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Prior to that I'd say a great deal. In the last 10 years though? Not in my mind. The advent of cheap femto clocks and DACs which do much better with Redbook (44.1kHz/16 bit stereo) than the previous generation happened around 2000 or so. After that I think it's all taste making rather than actual improvements in tech. Prove me wrong by sending me the latest dCS stack to listen to for a couple of years. |
Sounds like a plan.👍 FWIW I have a similar older vintage mhdt Constantine DAC that I still like very much. Currently used in a smaller desktop system. It’s a NOS design which is pretty unique. It’s a very smooth and analog sounding DAC and very musical. Also very cool and unique looking with smoked plexiglass enclosure that allow you to see all the very high quality components used. Hand made in Taiwan. A keeper! |
mapman that is GREAT information. Thank you VERY much. I think I will KEEP the Modi 3+ (where it is now, in my 2nd 'office' system, connected via LONG usb C to my laptop) for practical reasons (small, USB C), and will ADD the M1 (bought for under $200) to my main system for 'heft and looks' (physical size) or the 'basement' system (bunch of equipment, lot of vintage receivers (no DAC), speakers, CD players (with AWFUL built in DAC) also for 'looks and heft'. The M1 does not seem to be terrible in the 'under $200' category.
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Feature wise newer DACs tend to provide hi res digital to various degrees while older DACs less so. That’s important if high res streaming from say qobuz or Tidal is something you might be interested in. If it were me if the Schitt is newer and supports hi res and costs less it’s a no brainer to choose it unless there is some unique feature of the MF that you value. Most likely neither will sound “bad”. |
…but I did some research and here is the summary:
When comparing the Schiit Modi 3+ and the Musical Fidelity M1 DAC, several factors come into play, including sound quality, features, and user preferences. Here’s a breakdown of the two DACs based on available information: ### Sound Quality ### Features ### Price and Value ### User Experience ### Conclusion --- |
There has been a lot of improvement. And to some degree, progress has stabilized... as you can now get far more DACs that perform at the level as analog. However, build quality and detailed design still separate very good sounding from great sounding. As is often used as examples, Schiit makes some great budget DACs... I own one, some of my friends own them. They sound great for the money... but they don't sound anything like a real audiophile DAC... even one produced nearly ten years ago. While it is in the details, the natural sound of an individual instrument, how fully fleshed out the human voice is, how proportionally represented are all the sounds. Audiophile stuff tends to weigh a ton... because of massive power supplies providing quiet, highly regulated power, highly isolated internal subcomponents, massive enclosures to dampen vibration. All these things, you still don't get on budget gear. Which is why real audiophile gear costs a lot and sounds great for very long periods of time. |
