Decided to pull the trigger on Charney audio companion Excalibur speaker with Brian charneys custom 300 b power amp and l3 custom preamp . Thanks everyone for your help in making this choice
Horn speakers , high efficiency but not “shouty”
I am interested in a high efficiency horn with SET AMPS, in a 12 ft by 18 ft room. 9 ft ceiling .
I have narrowed my choices down to Charney audio Excalibur http://charneyaudio.com/the-companion-excalibur.html
and rethm maarga v2
https://www.google.com/amp/s/audiobacon.net/2019/04/18/rethm-maarga-v2-loudspeakers-listening-sessio...
would appreciate input from any one who has heard the above speakers or someone who has a similar system .
listening choices are vocal music , no classical music.
Very rarely might want my system to play loud party music .(extremely rare ) does not have to play it like solid state system. Thanks in advance
I have narrowed my choices down to Charney audio Excalibur http://charneyaudio.com/the-companion-excalibur.html
and rethm maarga v2
https://www.google.com/amp/s/audiobacon.net/2019/04/18/rethm-maarga-v2-loudspeakers-listening-sessio...
would appreciate input from any one who has heard the above speakers or someone who has a similar system .
listening choices are vocal music , no classical music.
Very rarely might want my system to play loud party music .(extremely rare ) does not have to play it like solid state system. Thanks in advance
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The use of the term is definitely loose, and moreover the habitual exposition to a sound character that doesn't closely emulate live sound will easily label that which actually does, not least dynamically, as an outlier; a (more) realistically reproduced trumpet, saxophone or drum set at full(er) tilt will have you wince almost, like a voice 'shouting' forcefully, and may appear "exaggerated" to the uninitiated to whom more stale sounding, low efficiency direct radiating speakers are the norm.In my case, 'shouty' refers to sounding 'loud' in an unpleasant manner not related to the music itself. IME when you have all your ducks in a row, a good system will not sound loud even when it is, it will only sound like the music and if that is loud, like a brass fanfare, so be it, but the system does not editorialize. ESLs can do this as well as a few box systems, but so can horns if properly designed. When measured, the system will be found to be low in higher ordered harmonic generation, free from mechanical resonance brought on by microphonics and no weird frequency response anomalies on axis, with gently rolling response off axis, finally with good total room energy (entirely off axis, which must be absent of any high frequency peaks). Horns can be very nice when interactions with side walls are going to be hard to avoid if you don't have controlled directivity. This is because side walls can have early reflections which the ear interprets as harshness. |
@atmasphere -- As far as 'shouty' goes, this is an artifact of distortion. Horns can exhibit it if the throat interface to the mouth of the horn isn't designed properly. These days with computer optimization that really shouldn't be an issue. ... (just some further thoughts) Even the latest, whizzbang computer modelled horn that doesn't technically exhibit horn modes, i.e. shouting tendencies, could by virtue of being a horn - with all that entails - produce a sonic outcome that leads some to believe it's "shouty" sounding. The use of the term is definitely loose, and moreover the habitual exposition to a sound character that doesn't closely emulate live sound will easily label that which actually does, not least dynamically, as an outlier; a (more) realistically reproduced trumpet, saxophone or drum set at full(er) tilt will have you wince almost, like a voice 'shouting' forcefully, and may appear "exaggerated" to the uninitiated to whom more stale sounding, low efficiency direct radiating speakers are the norm. When assessing "quality" we're very much lead on by the power of association and habit, to some simply subjectivity and to-each-their-own, but its more predominant nature is that of excluding true diversity as well as a more established live reference. |
I'm a bit surprised that nobody here has yet mentioned early James B Lansing Corner Horn speakers. These used the earliest and biggest of their famous "potato masher" horns (with diffraction grids) for both midrange and treble. To my ears the JBL C31's were the most accurate and realistic horn speakers ever made. |
I challenge you to A/B your horns with any model of Magnepan speakers and see if you still want the horns. Listen especially to voices and "quiet" instruments.I've been doing this for several decades now. I like the Maggies if you have the right amp with enough power and decent speaker cables. But they are not as fast or as revealing as my horn system (Classic Audio Loudspeakers model T3.3 with field coil powered drivers for the horns). Field coils bring speed to any driver that uses them. When you put power through the voice coil of any dynamic driver (and this includes Magnaplanars) the magnetic field sags as the current is increased. Maggies don't sag as much as some other drivers as things are spread out. But its still audible. Field coils allow cone and compression drivers to have the same speed as ESLs and really for the same reason- a power supply is running the motive force. As far as 'shouty' goes, this is an artifact of distortion. Horns can exhibit it if the throat interface to the mouth of the horn isn't designed properly. These days with computer optimization that really shouldn't be an issue. But the other thing to keep in mind is that older horns are meant to work with amps with a higher output impedance. If used with an amp of lower output impedance it can throw off the crossover point. If the driver starts operating out of band it can make additional distortion. Because the output impedance was highly variable in the old days, older horn systems usually had level controls on the midrange and tweeter to allow you to adjust the speaker to the voltage response of the amplifier. Most people think they were there to adjust to the room but that isn't how it works. |
Here are my videos of my Altec 604E Heifetz - Sibelius Violin Concerto https://youtu.be/LYXm9NL_RuY Louis Armstrong – Satchmo Plays King Oliver "St. James Infirmary" https://youtu.be/l4iTxmxvJfU Reiner - Chicago Symphony - Rimsky-Korsakov Scheherazade https://youtu.be/trdFb6zO9OA |
03-12-2021 8:08pmI have owned Wilson and Sonus Faber and I will easily vote for a horn over either of these speakers. I went on a year long search for Horn speakers and considered many including Charney, Avantgarde, hORN Univesum, Deja Vu, Klipsch, JBL, Aer, BD Design, PureAudioProject Trio's and Odeon to name a few. Then I found this small boutique company called Viking Acoustic who does amps and speakers. I ended up buying Viking Acoustic Grande Voix's and I am super happy. They have a line of speakers in all price ranges.I agree with willgolf - the Viking Acoustic speakers (formerly dc10Audio in Santa Fe) are exceptional, with all of the benefits of horn speakers and none of the weaknesses. They're very efficient, are easily driven with tube amps (SET amps and others). Magical sound - among the best. I have the Berlin R MKII stand mount monitors and they sound superb - just as in these videos! http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=viking+acoustics+berlin+r |
I'm have been using Altec 604e since 2005. I used Mordaunt Short, Dynaudio and Spendor 2/3 before. Horn and compression drivers are much more sensitive to equipment issues. For example, I have 300B amplifier with 6f6 driver. When I started to use it Spendor sounded smooth but Altec sounded harsh with it. The reason was cheap 6f6 tubes. When I changed them to good Mulard 6f6g all harshness is gone. Since that time I did a lot of tweaks in my electronics. And I can tell Altecs with compression drivers horns can sound smooth and refined. The quality of vocal reproduction is better then most speakers I listened on other systems included audio show. And in addition you get a real, uncompressed dynamics, huge soundstage, live energy, realistic bass and other unachievable by low sensitive speakers. |
My experience, using the older Avantgarde Duo, which could sound great or terrible depending on set up, was that the associated equipment upstream could make or break the results. The synergy with the Lamm ML2 is a known relationship-- I'm not advocating amp or speaker, but together they bring more than the sum of their parts. As I changed out gear gradually to what is currently in use in my system, added subs and readjusted the integrated woofers to more closely align with the mid horn, changed cartridges to something that delivers more deep bass, the overall quality of the presentation has improved. It's not just the speaker. My puzzlement now, much as I love the character of the original Lamm SET, is to find a set of speakers that will eventually replace the Duo but can still work with the Lamm at a meager 18 watts/channel. |
+1 to phusis......Also, as far as " shouty " is concerned, we are not just listening to the speakers. Associated equipment, the room, the speaker / listener relationship, and let us not forget the recordings, can all make a good horn system seem shouty ( example : a Crown IC 150 / DC300 combo feeding Altec 19s or a pair of my klipsch Lascala ). My experience, when this happens, it is exposing weaknesses elsewhere, and / or a lack of synergy within the whole. Just as the character who only likes the Maggies ( he is a joke, imo ), not everyone can listen to live, unamplfied music, close up, as their ears are sensitive to this, and horns do resemble this more than other designs. Not everyone likes horns, but imo and ime, it is the closest to live ( as I described above, not like a Madison Square Garden event ). Be well all, and enjoy. |
@daledeee1 -- I personally like immediacy, dynamics, clear, effortless sound. Set up properly, horns are quite smooth and relaxing to listen to. Indeed, completely agree. Good horn-loaded speakers are both uninhibitedly present and relaxed sounding. There’s this effortless, liquid flow to the music, even. Are people saying shouty meaning forward? In my book "shouty" would/should be a way to address the sonic outcome of horn modes that obtrusively sticks out in a particular frequency band, typically perhaps in the upper midrange for the, at least to some ears, worst effect. There are quite a few horns though that avoid these modes in most of their band, so I can only assume the more or less consistent impression of horns sounding "shouty," to whom this may concern, is being at odds with the characteristics of a horn qua horn, which is to say a sound with a higher ratio of direct vs. reflected sound compared to, perhaps paradoxically by name, direct radiating speakers. Horn speakers as acoustic transformers with their narrower and more controlled dispersion effectively aims the sound at the listener more prominently, and thus the more direct, vivid, present and visceral sonic imprinting this usually leads to, no doubt aided by the use of highly efficient compression drivers, may strike some as a shouty character. |
newtoncr, I like your approach of narrowing candidates to a few that you can realistically audition. As it is turning out, you are looking at single driver or single driver used as wideband driver in a multi-way system, rather than traditional "horn" systems (compression midrange driver). Personally, I've not heard many single driver systems that I would consider completely successful (Charney and Voxativ being the exception). I really do like systems where a driver intended to be used as a single driver is used as a wide band driver in multi-way systems. I've heard drivers that I thought were very rough and peaky sounding become remarkably well behaved when used in two and three way systems. I have heard a couple of different Horning systems and I do like their implementation of single drivers in multi-way systems. Their speakers are very lively and vivid sounding. I find them a touch bright, and a bit ragged and sibilant, but, this is a matter of taste, and overall, I do like them. I cannot recall the electronics used in the demonstration, but, it may have been Tron one time and Thoress another time. A friend has Tron electronics that I think are quite nice sounding. |
Thanks everyone, I have narrowed my quest of horn speakers with 300b set amps down to 2 charney audio with his electronics vs horning hybrid with maybe tron electronics. i don’t have the luxury of traveling and listening to multiple brands. any input on comparison between the above 2 is welcome before I make my travel plans to listen to them . |
I have owned Wilson and Sonus Faber and I will easily vote for a horn over either of these speakers. I went on a year long search for Horn speakers and considered many including Charney, Avantgarde, hORN Univesum, Deja Vu, Klipsch, JBL, Aer, BD Design, PureAudioProject Trio's and Odeon to name a few. Then I found this small boutique company called Viking Acoustic who does amps and speakers. I ended up buying Viking Acoustic Grande Voix's and I am super happy. They have a line of speakers in all price ranges. I do like Charney becasue of the drivers they use. |
If you check Duevel‘s own description of the Sirius on their website, you will see them decribe them as omni-horn speakers: the conus has amplification and dispersion effects, hence the horn designation. If you chose to rule them out as such, so be it. I deem them relevant for this discussion for their horn like driving characteristics and they sure as hell don‘t ‘shout’ |
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Challenge accepted. I've owned 1.6 with highly modded xovers and 3.5r. As good as they were, I'll take a good horn anytime over either of them. |
A friend owns the Zeus Ellipse DX45 speaker. It's a back loaded horn design, and the guys says it's one of the best he's ever owned. I have never heard it in person (he lives in another state), but something I might consider in the future.This is a Horning Hybrid speaker and agreed they're lovely. Will sound amazing on a SET and the Zeus or Aristotle would be a good match for your room size. Exceptional bass. Industry disclosure: I'm a Horning Hybrid dealer. |
It is all a matter of personal taste. Horn "coloration" can be a problem if the horn is not designed correctly. I do not know what "shouty" is. The speakers the OP mentions are not horns in the classic sense and whizzer cones are out of bounds as far as I am concerned. The Charney in particular looks wonderful but is poorly designed from a woodworking perspective as they are cross graining wood that is too thick. In environments that have a wide range of humidity's like we have in New England the wooden faces might crack. Maple in particular is a very bad wood to do this with. You might get away with mahogany as it's expansion coefficient is very low as is Teak's (that is why these woods are used in boats) The Rethm speakers are a similar but less flamboyant design that looks like it is made from synthetic materials, can't tell. But, it also uses a whizzer cone. I think the OP would be better of with a more classic design from Kipsch or JBL. They are not as cool looking but this is supposed to be about sound not looks. |
@rodge827 i don’t know , I have to visit Brian and decide . I also want to talk to him about amplification for the speakers . I am also going to be researching more about all the other brands mentioned in the above posts. I never knew there were so many horn based moderately priced speakers out there . Thanks everyone for your suggestions. really excited to dwell into the world of horns and set amps . |
I like Maggies too, but, as is the case with all speaker types and models, they have their own set of strengths and weaknesses that may not fit the particular priorities of any given listener. For me, the biggest issue is that they come alive at a volume level that is a little bit too high. The other issue I have with them is that they don't pair well with the type of amplifier that I much prefer--low-powered tube amplifiers. I've owned Maggies, and can very comfortably live with them, but, I prefer the particular horn system I've assembled. The Charney and Rethm systems the OP is asking about have very limited distribution and are really only known to audio cognoscenti, while Maggies are ubiquitous. I am pretty sure the OP and anyone who are interested in them have run into Maggies before and for whatever reason, are not considering them. |
Just like some ears prefer the characteristics of vinyl - with all its known colourings - so might some prefer the sound a horn gives them. Speaking for myself, my very large back-loaded horns are perfect for the large room we live most of our life in. My monitors in the studio are perfect for that task. My line arrays are where the band moves about a lot. Different colours for different listens. The key thing is to couple the driver(s) to the room in the right way for you. |
I have posted it before, but will again: Horns belong on top of poles at high school football stadiums, period. I challenge you to A/B your horns with any model of Magnepan speakers and see if you still want the horns. Listen especially to voices and "quiet" instruments. If so, fine. If not, maybe you can move on from them. Cheers! |
Yes you can crank up the volume with Charney Audio horns. As with any speaker your room will determine the effect. The Volti’s will play loud and clean but lack emotional engagement to the music/artist. More of a pro-sound if you will. The Charneys will draw you into the music and relate what the artist’s intentions are. It’s the difference between someone who can play the notes (Volti) vs someone who has command of the instrument and their personality is revealed (Charney). I own Charney Companion horns and very happy with them. newtoncr-You mentioned purchasing the Excalibur which driver are you considering? |
