Home network router question

Sounds like you have mesh network with a gateway plume node connected to main router and other mesh nodes plugged into wall outlets for better wifi throughout the house. This is similar to my setup - I use EERO mesh network.
In my setup the main unit is in another room upstairs connected to the optimum tv router. Downstairs where my stereo system is I have an EERO mesh node connected to outlet that’s not on the same circuit with my system and an Ethernet cable from this node feeds my streamer. Network components radiate a good amount of EMI that results in distortion, smearing and higher noise floor - the further you keep them from your stereo system components and cables the better.

Hi @mpomerantz ,  I took a quick look at Plume.  It seems to me it is a form of Internet over power lines or EoP.  While this is better than wifi, I don't think it is as good as quality ethernet cables running from your router directly.  I believe power lines can impart noise to the ethernet signal.  

I do use EoP (Eero Pro mesh with base station and extenders plugged into power receptacles) in a vacation home with no ethernet wiring..  This is easily better than wifi, and a quality ethernet cable or filter (NA Muon Pro Ethernet filter) improves things further.

@fastfreight EERO nodes communicate to each other via wifi signal they receive from the gateway unit. Plume appears to be mesh as well. It is actually not Ethernet over Power.
Using your streamer wired to mesh node shouldn’t be any different than hard wiring your streamer directly from the router. Moreover, it provides an opportunity to use a high quality relatively short Ethernet cable as opposed to a 30 meter run of generic cable and drilling holes in the walls etc.

Yes the only downside, is with my modem in the stereo cabinet the primary Plume node is in very close proximity to the cabinet.  It sits just above the cabinet.  So continuing that set up would seem ripe for EMI interference.

Moving the modem and main pod ( or dumping the pods-modem and replacing it with a standalone modem router without pods ) would seem to permit better isolation.

One thing to keep in mind is that lightning can enter a home via metal to metal connections (coax, Ethernet) so while getting a hard wire connection as close to the entry point may make sense from a signal, you should also consider how to mitigate a potential incoming lightning surge. 

I use a coax gas discharge outside the home, plus medical grade Ethernet isolators indoors AND fiber converters.  Yeah, I'm paranoid but in a lightning/storm prone area and I have a lot of tech gear that could go boom if lightning got in the modem.

@mpomerantz if you can move the modem and the gateway plume away from the system all you will need as I mentioned above is to situate that node 1-1.5m away from system and run good cable. You should be fine. 

Always ask yourself question why would this help or improve?

Who is the provider ,this is horrible , why can’t you get a router,modem combo 

run it hardwired  then like myself remove the noise ,digital is not grounded from house to house , Linear tube Audio. Make a great LPS power supply 

removes all that garbage noise coming in  up to 8 amps. Most are 4 amps or less 12 v ,and the pathetic wall wart power supply just ads more noise 

then a decent Ethernet switch LHY -SW-8 has a temp controlled clock ,LPS ,

and low noise regulators   Decent quality Ethernet cables ,your best one goes to your end point , then you start getting good sounding digital with a decent streamer 

a good DDC after streamer a big plus also ,which I do all of the above ,remove all weak links in. The chain , being a dedicated Audiophile no stone goes unturned ,

land 100% makes a big difference.. p.s you can spend $4k just on a Ethernet switch like my brother has ,all depends how far you want to go l

Remember that the entire Internet consist of cheap equipment.

Any thoughts? Please remember when replying that I am an analogue guy trying to navigate the digital world with as little pain as possible.

There is no such thing called "digital".

Toslink is essentially a signal that pertains to modulations in light intensity --> It is ANALOG

Ethernet, I2S, etc are signals composed of voltage modulations ---> It is ANALOG

They are just as ANALOG as your turntable which spun around and gave you lowfi/midfi sound....What you are referring to as "digital" is just a lot more hifi ANALOG than your lowfi/midfi analog turntable. It requires some careful execution and it isn’t exactly plug n play.

Hope that helps.

A lot of wrong info here. You don’t need the modem to be out in the open, the function of the modem is to connect it to a router and that router needs to be in the open for better WiFi distribution. The best setup is to have the modem and the router separate. 
I setup corporate networks in the 90’s and people make things so complicated. You have many options on routers, buy your own or get a supplied one from your isp. The master router (could be your only router) will hook up to the modem and this router will need to be setup with your WiFi ssid, passwords, and any tweaking of channels, port forwarding, etc..

‘This is where it can get more complicated. Most homes today (except for studio apartments) you will need more than 1 router to get better coverage. Mesh is the best way to do this but only if you use the current 6e/7 standard mesh routers. This allows you to use the backhaul with a private channel that is very fast and only used between the routers. Also, the best setup is to wire all the routers using cat 6 or above cables, only use the backhaul if you can’t wire them together.

I use 4 mesh routers in my house and each router provides an Ethernet connection thru a switch to my roon endpoint. 
‘Always use wired connections, never use wap’s, Ethernet over power lines, even WiFi to an audio device, use a wired connection.

@deep_333 No, they are not. This just shows you know little about even the modulation. Which is not voltage at all, btw. People moved on from AM days. TOSLINK is a laughable comparison to Ethernet. Which is completely different and does not lose any bits. And no, there is no jitter there either.

@rbstehno - Wired is certainly better, but sometimes it is not achievable. I think if their WiFi can handle, say, Netflix to the point, it will be fine with audio.

I think your concerns on configuration really won’t impact the performance of your streamer.  A good general rule to follow is to hardwire your devices wherever possible. Even streaming high res audio, you’re not using enough bandwidth to stress anything.  As far as concerns with interference goes, it’s also a moot point. It will never be high enough to be detectable by your hearing.  The entire process involves moving packets of data from a source to your device. Be it wired, wireless, power lines….it doesn’t matter.  It’s all read requests followed by a data stream. A file is broken down into chunks (packets) sent over what ever, then reassembled by the client. 

Question for the IT guys, isn't a mesh network supported by nodes in a hierarchy with each node connected by WIFI? So if you Ethernet cable to a node, you are still ultimately using an RF signal (WIFI) rather than a direct Ethernet connection to your cable modem, is that correct?

A couple of years ago I went to an ASUS Mesh network for our home. The base router, an RT-AX86U sits upstairs in my den next to the Motorola cable modem. Downstairs are two RP-AC1900 Mesh nodes that are networked over the air to the main router upstairs.

One node is in my wife's office downstairs that serves her wifi needs with enough range to serve our outdoor patio shelter as well. (I move my wifi pellet grill under it for our PNWet winters ) It also serves our smart TV in the den.

The other node I tried to install in the same cabinet in the living room as my hi-fi rig but it generates so much RF (Hello? Wifi!) that it made my CJ Premier 6 impossible to use. So I moved it into a bookcase across the living room and ran some quality Cat 8 from it to my streamer. Problem solved. 

Here's a review of the Plume system:

https://www.cnet.com/reviews/plume-adaptive-wifi-system-review/

I gotta tell you, I'm not impressed on either a cost or performance basis. But getting back to your question, sorry I veered off course there, if you can I would move any RF generating gear away from your hi-fi rig. It doesn't have to be that far really. Then I'd run good quality Cat cable from your router back to your streaming device.

Good luck and as always...

Happy listening.

Get three bids from three different electricians for relocating your RJ45 jack. When you hardwired modem is where you want it then place your boosters.

1. Is running an ethernet wire from my streamer/DAC to the main pod equivalent to direct wiring to the old stand alone modem/router?

If the main pod is hardwired to the modem, then yes, it's basically the same as direct wire. However, if you can, try to wire it directly to the modem.  Direct to the modem is the best.  

2.  If I move the modem and main pod; can I run a cable from the main pod to an ethernet port ( to be installed ) in the cabinet and plug in my streamer?  Will this be nearly equivalent to hard wiring into my old modem/router?

Yes, basically the same as #1.

2 things you should do.....

1. Make sure you use high quality certified C6 cables. Don't need to be fancy, just make sure they are certified. This really makes a difference. I get most of mine from work, but BlueJeans has good cheap certified cables. 

2. Try to have the least number of "hops" from the DAC to the modem. Each hop can/will add jitter, noise, can have lost packets. Most home "mesh" networks use cheap components are mostly crap for anything high end. Hardwire will always beat a mesh network. 

If this was my network, the provided hardware would be given back, then purchase a good modem, hook that modem up to a little router, with a wi-fi point plugged into that. Anything that needs good fast signal, have it plugged into that switch. If you have a quality wi-fi access point, it can almost be as good as wired in places you can't run a wire. 

This is too damn complicated.

I have a have modem hardwired to a router with various Ethernet cables feeding to network switches. I have one audio grade network switch that has an ethernet cable running to my streamer.

It's really that simple. No wireless anywhere, everything hardwired.

emergingsoul

I have a have modem hardwired to a router with various Ethernet cables feeding to network switches. I have one audio grade network switch that has an ethernet cable running to my streamer.

That's exactly what I do, although I'm not sure I'm using an "audio grade" network switch. This system is super simple and rock stable.

 

 

impaler

18 posts

10-29-2024 at 11:11am

Question for the IT guys, isn’t a mesh network supported by nodes in a hierarchy with each node connected by WIFI? So if you Ethernet cable to a node, you are still ultimately using an RF signal (WIFI) rather than a direct Ethernet connection to your cable modem, is that correct?

Correct - the nodes communicate with each other wirelessly. However, you’re using Ethernet cable to connect the node to your streamer. This gives you ability to minimize EMI and RFI by moving the node as far away from the streamer as possible.
The data was transferred from the hard-wired gateway node to the node feeding your streamer via wifi and those data packets are intact correct? The data is essentially identical to what your router is pushing?
The data handled by the satellite node is 1 to 1 with the router. You’re now feeding that data thru Ethernet cable to your streamer. So are you still using wifi to feed your streamer in this configuration or is the streamer hard-wired? I’m asking you now…

People here are using different terminology than I am used to, but it sounds to me like you can move the modem to a new place and the usual setup is then modem to router to switch, with CAT-6 cable running hard wired from the switch to your preferred places. Cat6 cables or higher can allow power over ethernet (POE) which is "a technology for delivering DC power to devices over copper Ethernet cabling, without separate power supplies or outlets." (from Cisco). These wires can terminate in mini switches to allow for a media center (I have runs to three such places) as well as to a computer, a storage system like a Synology NAS, and to WIFI devices to allow you to create a much more reliable Wi-Fi network than using a Wi-Fi/router combination, with other areas only being connected to the router via Wi-Fi.

The primary advantage of moving the modem-router-switch (and the NAS) to one place is that they create noise and heat and require some degree of ventilation, so coming into an area where you listen to music is not so cool IMHO. If you have other stuff like a home security NVR then that too should be hidden away.

The PoE Cat 6 runs to your listening areas can then be plugged directly into those things you have that need that ethernet, and those are going to perform far better than anything connected via Wi-Fi.

@erik_squires An optical link is a great way to not only protect your system from lightnings/storms but, depending on where in your network you place it, to also reduce the amount of RFI noise reaching your system. Have you tried one and rueld it out? A couple of Fiber/Fibre Media Converters with SFP ports to accept an optica/lectrical transceiver module is all you need; the FMCs are built into some routers/modems but standalone units are inexpensive.

@emergingsoul @cleeds I prefer hard-wired too but some people don't have the option.

Networked audio is one of those unusual areas in which you're really not better off solving a problem at its source; it's better to address noise as close to the streamer as possible. Whether a switch used for audio is "audiophile" or not is actually less important than where it is! If you want to use it to kill RFI noise, rather than as a port replicator to give you more ports, it needs to be the shortest possible length of cable from your streamer (say 1ft to 3ft).

 The switch-streamer cable should either be unshielded (like Cat 6) or ideally be known/measured to have the shield grounded only at one end (there are precious few of the latter); most big name audiophile cables and Cat 8 (it's part of the spec) have in common that the shield is grounded to both plugs and this allows RFI stopped by the switch to travel down the shield and reach the streamer, exactly what we don't want.

@timothy468 I like your thinking

If you or anyone else reading this uses Quantum Fiber (QF) as their Internet providerr Internet provider, QF recently ended their licensing agreement with Plume. The QF tech mentioned that Plume provided the mesh network software for the QF pods. This explains the low bandwidth performance and inability to configure some of my QF pods via the QF app. 

As others have noted, they use Eero for their mesh network which I'll also do.

Others here have answered your 3 questions but I wanted QF subscribers to know they likely no longer have a mesh network via the QF pods. Wouldn't it be nice for QF to inform their subscribers?

nigeltheflash

Networked audio is one of those unusual areas in which you’re really not better off solving a problem at its source; it’s better to address noise as close to the streamer as possible.

Hmmmm, I’m not sure I follow your logic there!

Whether a switch used for audio is "audiophile" or not is actually less important than where it is! If you want to use it to kill RFI noise ... it needs to be the shortest possible length of cable from your streamer (say 1ft to 3ft).

Again, I don’t see the logic there. I’ve found routers and switchers to be more a source of RFI than a remedy. That’s why I try to keep computer stuff as centralized as possible and away from my audio system, which includes both analog and digital sources.

Thanks for all the comments; all very helpful.

One other question/thought.

I know the modem/router is best located in the "center" of ones home but wonder if anyone has had success with placement in the basement ( with router extenders in the rest of the  home)?  

With mesh network it doesn’t really matter where the modem/router is located as long as you have the nodes positioned in the right locations throughout the house. 

So a followup question after considering the options.

Heres's the proposed solution:

Place the modem and first hard wired router pod in the basement but mounted up on the wall towards the ceiling.  Hard wire the streamer to the hard wired router in the basement.  Upstairs will add wireless pods to complete the system.

Question: does the Cat 6 ( or higher ) wire from the streamer to the hardwired router pod in the basement affect sound of streamed music?  Similarly does the wire from the modem to the hard wired pod matter?  If so do they have equal impact?

Thanks and Happy Thanksgiving

how about this: changing ANYTHNG can have an impact on a system's sound.  there is a lot to say about the synergy between components.  like certain power amps work better with some speakers that others.  this makes saying that one wire is more important than another in a certain position difficult.

if I were you and trying to improve your situation, I would work backwards from the endpoint, upgrading cables in that manner.  your system may need 100 hours when you change something.  and you should do a lot of listening with the new part, and then go back to the old one and see if you can hear anything,  different isn't always better.  everything is returnable - or should be.  unless you're one of the people -  who I greatly admire - that will buy used stuff and then resell it if they don't like it

the other thing I would recommend is linear power supplies everywhere, again working backward from the end point and going all the way to the modem.

it's a great hobby - and Happy Thanksgiving to you!