I am looking for a DAC (potentially streamer&DAC) to be paired in a mcintosh system (c1100/611). Its my first foray into digital streaming and I have no need for a CD player.
I see a lot of love for Esoteric, however, most seems to be around their transports? Are they not as renowned for pure digital streaming and/or standalone DACs? I see DCS (for instance) often referenced for standalone DACs - how does Esoteric compare?
Hello djones51, ed_nyc makes a compelling case for the extraordinary measures taken to overcome RF emissions and vibration issues that are detrimental to sound quality. Is it your contention this objective can be effectively achieved at a very reasonable cost (And weight) ? Very interesting dialogue posted thus far. Charles
In the first place you don’t need a computer to get excellent sound from digital. At least not the type of computer we’re talking about here a lot of things like phones and tablets , streamers are ’computers ’. True if you want to use room you’ll need a computer to run the OS but you don’t need dual 10 core hyperthreading Xeons for 40 threads and 48 gigs of ecc ram. I don’t really like roon so why would I need a computer? I use a NAS and rarely use that mostly I stream tidal. Digital has RF emission computers are about the worse for this so if you use one don’t stick in your audio rack. Vibration control has been taken to extremes but the OP is looking for a DAC and streamer no mention of a server how does the Extreme alleviate vibration in a DAC attached to it with a cable? I said the Extreme is probably a very good server one of best I imagine but it isn’t what the guy asked about. Lumin x1 is about $14K has a great dac ,dual mono design, femtoc clock, optical network to isolate digital noise, great user interface, streamer. Matrix Element X one of the best measuring dacs with top of the line ESS chips , xmos USB prossecor , linear power supply, isolation ldo, hook it to a good home network with a quality NAS and you’ll get excellent digital sound for $3K. It even has a micro sd card slot just put your music on those. These are not servers will not run roon core but at least they are a dac/streamer what the OP asked about.
@mikelavigne Thank you for your detailed response and for summarizing the progression and gains through to the present. Your post and other contributions in the thread are very helpful and highlight things I need to be aware of, and consider, should I make choices in these areas.
@ed_nyc Great to learn more about the development of the Taiko Extreme and the 'Extreme Ways' Path. : ) Thanks for the excellent information.
Guys - wow, really appreciate all the thoughts and perspectives here!
just a couple points to clarify:
- i don’t have any (and don’t really anticipate having) ripped music files...so, as fat as i understand it, don’t have the need to get into NAS/server mediums?
- i fear this may open a whole other can of worms...but what are folks’ thoughts on SQ of playing cd thru a high quality transport vs streaming high rez through something like Tidal? I know the spec is potentially better thru DSD/MQA but also not sure how much of that spec is theoretical vs discernible thru human ears?
- reason i ask about cd SQ vs streaming is one of the brands I am heavily interested in is Esoteric...and I suspect the best bang for the buck there may be going with one of their cd players (i know they have the N line - but i view their strength and differentiator is thru the cd transport and associated DAC?)
i don’t have a current collection of cds...and was originally not even thinking along those lines, as i figured if wanted to play a physical disc it would be vinyl...however, im wonder if i should keep vinyl as more a niche thing for myself (given less availability and my focus on particular pressings which lowers availability even more).
so, perhaps i should think about cd or is that just silly at this point in the evolution of things?
- obviously, if i don’t go the cd route im going internet streaming.
- i need to narrow my focus so that i can try working with dealers to get some demos...of course, there are a ton of brands but im going to focus on 2...
esoteric (for the cdp/dac combination) OR
esoteric (for the streamer/DAC) and DCS (for the network streamer/DAC and/or DAC only)...
any fatal flaws with focusing on these 2 for the purposes above - im hoping they are both mature, stable, quality enough that it wouldn’t be a bad choice going with either of these and can just let my ears decide?
I have recently auditioned the Audio Research DAC 9 together with the Aurender ACS10. The sound is supreme abd the storage capacity is enormous and CDs can also be burned and stored. The total cost minus the the cables is under 11K.
@djones51 I recently demoed the Matrix X-Sabre Pro and unfortunately found it one of the least compelling of the DACs I was trying (Audio Mirror T3 SE, iFi iDSD pro, Lampizator Amber 3, Shiit Bifrost 2, & PS Audio Directstream). It sounded mellow and smooth with no noise, but didn't really build a 3 dimensional soundstage. I found it a little grey and sterile and always just wanted to switch over and listen to one of the other dacs whenever it was up in the rotation. That said, Apos audio gives you no-hassle 30-day free auditions, so if you're interested you can give it a shot fairly easily. [P.S. Of those DACs, the Audio Mirror sounded best in my system.]
@david_ten yes, i need to narrow the field somewhat, at least starting out so that i can reach out to associated dealers and get the demo pipeline going.
is there another brand or two you would otherwise start with - and why?
@djones51 yeah, that sort of what i figured..so much love for those transports though lol
I spent some time trying to get my network bridge (ie. a streamer with no dac) to sound as good as my CD transport. I eventually achieved this through cables and adjusting settings on the bridge. And so in theory there is no need for me to play CDs. - HOWEVER, and it is a big however, the streaming services usually only have the most recent remastered version of an album for streaming. And for many albums, and in my experience for most albums outside of classical and jazz, the most recent remaster sounds considerably worse than older mastered versions of an album. - . The reason for this is that remasters are created to make recordings sound better through earbuds for modern ears, and for in-car play, they are not designed for high end audiophile equipment on which they often sound worse. This is due to the increased compression and loudness applied to a modern (post mid 90s) remaster. - So: if your tastes include music from pre-2000 and you are not exclusively listening to jazz and classical you should invest in a CD transport and check out older masterings of CDs. Also have a network bridge to stream Qobuz to the DAC of course. In my experience the DAC is more significant here than the bridge. The differences you hear between DACs or between streamers is nothing compared to the differences you hear between older and newer mastering iterations of an album. On streaming services you will usually only have the often sonically poorer most recent remaster whereas with a CD transport you can listen to any version you wish.
Much to take in on this thread ... Chord would be worth Listening to for one. TT2 with MScaler or even DAVE and w/wo MScaler (FPGA Type).
The Audiophile Style Review referenced by m1k3 is through, and addresses relative components up and downstream with a Summary and do take some time to read the ’Comparison to other DACs’ if you have not done so. The Windows 10 based "Renderer" has a definite appeal to me as I do use a PC / USB to Stream Amazon HD. And brings to mind HQ Player.
Also, did you check out the DCS Network Bridge Article? Thoughts ... ?
DACs on the past two years only has developed so much that need to be considered in your decision. Try product with trial period and evaluate your self
is there another brand or two you would otherwise start with - and why?
Not knowing you, I do not. I know what works for me. Does that translate to you, I have no idea.
I would expand your approach by looking at different implementations / design goals to get a better feel for which draws you in more.
It’s difficult to "break out" what a single component is doing within and for a system that one is unfamiliar with (i.e. at a dealer) so be careful in that regard. In other words, consider the entire system for perspective and comparative purposes; not just the DAC.
If you go with the Esoteric streamer/dac the top of their line is the N-01XD. The older version is the N-01 they are built around different DAC's. The N01 uses an AKM 4497 chip which is a few years old AKM 's newest chip is the 4499. The N01XD uses what looks like a proprietary FPGA Esoteric developed, their Master Sound Discrete DAC. I have no idea which would sound better or the prices I happened to notice the recently came out with this new piece might get a deal on the N-01.
Cal3713 thanks for the info I have been wondering about the Matrix ElementX as it is a one piece streamer/ dac. I use a benchmark dac3 now which some consider very neutral and not very engaging, they both use ESS chips, which is what I look for I like the dac to not add anything, flat, neutral, no noise, great measurements sounds good to me.
As far as streamers, you should give Innous a serious look. Innous has streamers ranging from ~$1,200 Zen Mini MK3 to the Zenith Statement at ~$13,000.
I own the Aurender N10 Music Server and like it very much. I listen to Qobuz Streaming for their outstanding sound quality. My stored CD albums also sound excellent. The "Aurender Conductor App" turns the iPad into a versatile user interface for Aurender Music Server/Players.
As you can see from above posts, the selection of a music server is not an easy decision or process. It seems, everyone has a DIFFERENT server recommendation. I suggest you make a list of the important features your music server needs and your questions. For example, please review:
1) What is your price range for a music server?
2) What features does your server need? For example, I wanted my CD albums stored in the same box, wanted Qobuz Streaming Services and also Internet radio stations. And, also the ability to add more additional streaming services when they become available.
3) Do you want a DAC built into the streamer or a separate DAC? For maximum flexibility, I decided on an external DAC.
4) What digital outputs do you need? I decided on a Music streamer with BOTH USB and AES/EBU digital outputs to my DAC. In most cases, I prefer the AEB/EBU connection (a high priority for me). Some servers offer an Ethernet audio connection for output.
5) Is a Roon interface important to you? If needed, you need a Roon enabled server. I decided that Roon is not required. In my case, the Aurender Conductor App DOES exactly what I need. However, several of my friends purchased a Roon enabled server and likes it very much. Another friend purchased the Roonlabs Nucleus by Roon Music Server and recommends it.
6) Your server needs a controlling App that runs on an iPad or something similar. You need to review the App to ensure it supports your needs to easily find and manage your music selections.
7) Does your server offer Remote Internet Technical Support? The Aurender does. I used this once and they solved my user operational issue very quickly (my error).
8) Does your music server provide software updates for additional features? Aurender updates their servers and the Conductor App to add more features, etc.
9) Sound quality is the MOST important. In my case, I asked many questions, talked to many people, read many reviews and auditioned various servers to help me make the right decision. I selected the Aurender N10 Music Server for its sound quality.
I hope the above helps you make a decision. Thanks....
ditto on aurender. great products all around. i’d also look to mate it with perhaps a dcs bartok. you’ll be comfortable knowing that you’re in the top end of digital. to exceed this from a sound standpoint i think a lot more money would need to be spent to maybe pick up a 5-10% improvement. imo
My Aurender N10 Music Server is connected to my Bricasti M21 DAC. I use both the USB connection and the AES/EBU connection (preferred).
My Bricasti M21 DAC is in my main audio system and it is truly outstanding. It offers both a sigma delta conversion and a ladder DAC. I switched back and forth and decided the ladder DAC sounds the best. As I previously stated, you need to audition the equipment you are interested in. Everyones taste and environment is different so please take your time.
for those on this thread that read comments about the SGM Extreme server but felt it was ’overkill’ a well known DIY’r Romaz wrote a few posts about his own SGM Extreme he just received that might answer a few questions and clear up some distorted viewpoints. here is a link to those posts. it’s a fun read (Romaz writes well).;
+1 for the Linn product line. I use a Majik DSM and stream Qobuz as well as from local storage. The Linn controller app for Windows works well, and the Android app is tolerable. Both are free and do not require a separate computer.
If anyone wants to hear the Extreme server and they happen to be in my neighborhood, east of Seattle, they would be most welcome. It’s awesome. And I have 20tb’s of files, Quboz and Tidal to sample. A bit of vinyl and tape too.
I went the Computer & DAC route. My current DAC is an Esoteric D-7 and was purchased as a Demo from Paragon Sight & Sound on this site. The Esoteric 07 was discontinued and replaced with the newer Esoteric 07X. The simple fact is it was NOS. Yes, it was also well below retail. It’s my digital work horse and been without problem. I also use a Esoteric DV-50 for hard disc. I had problems early on, once for SACD and another for red book. Both times I only paid shipping one-way, heck the last time it was out of warranty. The DV-50 was also a Demo. I was told by Esoteric that it was a very early production unit. It’s been without issue for over 15 years of heavy usage.
For the DAC in the 20k range, I would recommend DCS Vivaldi II, or, TotalDac Twelve, or, Lampizator Pacific. Don’t like Esoteric DACs much myself, even I am playing their P-0s VUK transport.
I recently wanted to purge my CD player and auditioned a Aurender ACS 10 with a Audio Research DAC 9 both costing under 12K! The sound was exceptional in all respects and the system could be controlled by an IPAD using a streaming app of your choice. This is worth checking out!
I have a NAIM server on HRS isolation and damping with a Pardo LPSU into an Aesthetix Pandora Signature - very musical, organic. Nice to see a civil helpful thread :-)
don’t underestimate isolation for vibration, signal and power!
I feel what's being overlooked is the resolving power of your speakers. An advanced DAC would cost a lot but you might not be able to discern everything it's doing without very accurate transducers. I don't know enough about streaming, but with the pace of improvements in technology, I would welcome modularity when it comes to digital playback so that upgrading could be done in the field. Also, I am one of these "oddballs" who goes to a demo and can't hear a significant difference between item-A and item-B (which costs twice as much). Item-B may look a little "newer" and have a few extra inputs (I won't need) and a nicer display, but it's not so much the cost but the degree of real improvement, which is small.
What’s Best Forum across the best DAC’s is another reference depends on your budget but fun to read about. In case no one has said it I’m trying the Lampizator Amber III DAC and have an upgraded PS Audio PerfectWave DAC. I strongly recommend the AudioAlchemy DTI PRO32 for jitter control. Couple hundred bucks very well spent. Mutec make a similar unit. Have fun!
I highly recommend the PS Audio Directstream DAC with the Network Bridge II. At $6899 it is well within your budget and, if you buy directly from them, you can evaluate it at home and return it for a full refund if you dont like it. I dont think you'll return it...
I own the ND 555 streamer/DAC with the 555 PS DR power supply and a Uniti Core ripper/hd server. I like how it sounds. I use to own their 555 CD player, which I thought sounded better than their servers, but, their current top-of-the-line server is quite good. I have almost 5,000 CDs ripped to the server. I don't know how it compares with other high end servers and dacs, but, the dealer who sold it to me said he was surprised himself by how it performed compared to the other stuff he carries, and he has some auite good gear in the shop, like the ultra expensive MBS and the Berkeley stuff.
If you can afford $15-20 k you for sure without any doubt deserve to hear either the Top Vacuum tube Lampizator Pacific dac, or the closeGolden gate dac for true realism you would have to spend well over $40k with the upper DCS dacs,vacuum tube dacs that are also tube rectified bring a much more natural larger soundstage and image depth like live music.i have listened to the to top Meitner, Chord ,ps audio ,and others they just sonicly are not in the same league as these. Lampizator USA call Rob I am sure you can get a audition ,for 2 week money back audition,and for sure Buy the a final touch audio usb cable retail $850 best usb cable under $1500 .you can for sure get $$ off if serious .i own their lesser model but spent $$$ modding my out to get close . Lampizator is well respected around the world.
I wonder how much of the above we all comprehend? What was the question again?! Any DAC with the top shelf DA chip-sets is halfway to nirvana, the other half is quite a mark of the jitter and clock designs...that’s the hard part to DAC design. The designers who get that second part right are leading the market and most of us consumers have no idea what that is all about. Someone above said it is very difficult to hear many differences in a blindfolded Pepsi challenge, I agree with that.
Take a block of gold and machine out a pocket so it slides over a iFi Audio PRO iDSD DAC and then you’ll have a DAC that streams, has a preamp mode, has a tube stage, upsampling filters, ultra-quiet power supply etc. and still sounds sounds better than any $20k DAC on the market. Machine some solid knobs out of silver and glue them onto the two rotary controls, you’ll still have a DAC that sounds better than a $25k unit. I have no problem paying $20k plus for a DAC, I don’t care what a DAC costs. I want the BEST DAC for my two systems, and spent a lot of time searching for it, both systems are running McIntosh gear. the office system (near field) is using active ATC monitors where the listener can hear the DAC’s smallest nuances with extreme detail, as well as everything else on the recording. https://ifi-audio.com/products/pro-idsd/I have two iFi PRO iDSD DACs and until something big happens I don’t think it gets any better.
Steve Segal in Seattle is a very personable dealer who is one-on-one with all his customers.
This list reads like the A+ category of Stereophile's recommended processor list. So let me add the PS Audio PerfectWave DirectStream DAC from that list. I've had this DAC for 2 years now and really like it. I've got it connected to a McIntosh MX151 -> MC452 -> B&W 803D2, which is my front speaker setup. You can make it a network streaming endpoint using the Network Bridge II card, which I do have installed. But I have to say it sounds a little better going through my old Mac Mini (2012) via a WireWorld USB cable. Either way it's an excellent DAC and has the advantage of being able to upgrade it's firmware via an SD card on its rear panel, each upgrade does make it sound better too (it uses FPGAs), I've been through 5 firmware upgrades now and each as refined the sound for better.
Additionally, I'm currently using Roon for streaming to it today, along with 4 other endpoints in my house. When switching to Digital its software that is also worth a look. For me it really took the headache out of streaming and has made my listening experience fun without working to get music streamed reliably.
I recently purchased a Benchmark DAC3 DX and totally love it. Benchmark makes a veryu special line of products. The sound is very smooth and analogue-like in character. Good for all day listening without fatigue.
I also am also enjoying the PS Audio Direct Stream DAC. Also using a Roon Nucleus, Parasound Hint Integrated, to Sonus Faber Olympica III speakers. Sounds terrific. The DAC upgrades are a major plus as each upgrade improves the DAC. Never need to replace it. Great waf… Good luck in your search for great sound.
@ufguy73 I have been running two cd transports (Esoteric P-0s VUK, Forsell Air Reference CD Transport MKII) into TotalDac DAC, then feed Burmester preamp and 911 MK3 power amp before going to current speakers from Voxativ Ampeggio Signatures. Interconnects are Tara Labs Zero Gold/Analysis Plus Golden Oval/Kharma Enigma. Power cords are Stealth V10 and above plus several NBS Black Label IIIs. I am using Ansuz D2 grounding station. My Burmester amp is over power for the Voxativ speakers and I am planning to change soon, but still sounds beautifully musical. Cheers!
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