Higher End DACs

I totally agree with @lalitk here. On the McIntosh that is. I was just very hesitant of bringing this up, for fear of sounding snobby. 

I have the B&W 803 D3 speakers by the way

Kren0006 is spot on. If you have what we used to call a ‘colored’ front end you will end up trying to return to neutral at some point which becomes a slippery slope. Do you then buy a brighter than neutral amp or cables? The very best components should absolutely be neutral and rich in detail. ‘warm’ generally means rolled off or soft etc. Let the source material dictate the neutrality. What to do with a ‘warm’ recording played back on a ‘warm’ system? boring, which is the last thing you want. IMO only

I have to agree with lalitk. I didn’t want to bring up the MAC thing either but it looms large in this decision. 

@ufguy73, The key words in @lalitk’s post above is "you will figure out which way to go ONLY by listening to all the aforementioned recommendations in YOUR system”.  You received over 200+ responses to your question containing many different comments and component solutions.   In addition, many of these components are at different price levels and configurations (i.e., DAC only or DAC/Preamp). 

Everyone's opinion is important, and interesting, but it is YOUR system, YOUR environment, YOUR ears and YOUR money.   As was stated, I ALSO recommend you audition some components that best match your needs.   This is the only way you are going to know what sounds best to you.  

I do not know if you are buying new or preowned.   If you are buying a new component, you need to find a retailer that understands your needs and will assist you to demo the components needed to make a decision.   If possible, for the best results, you should schedule a home audition.  

I had a very helpful retailer that allowed me to take home some integrated amplifiers to hear.  I returned the 1st amp, returned the 2nd amp and kept the 3rd amplifier.    Listening in your home system is the best way to make a decision on what component to purchase.  

In addition, some manufacturers, like SimAudio, have an offer that for any new SimAudio equipment you bought NEW, they will CREDIT you 100% of your $$ investment if you purchased the unit in the last 12 months, and 75% in the last 12-24 months.   This offer enables you to listen at home for up to one year and return it for another unit, if needed.  I had my SimAudio 2nd amp for about 6 months and then replaced it with another SimAudio amp.     

@ufguy73 

There's absolutely nothing wrong with your McIntosh system, you must have enjoyed it for some time now not only do you have people suggesting $35,000 streaming dacs and $5000 reclockers but saying you need to sell off what you have and start over. Auralic, Lumin, Innous, Aurrender as well as other streamers in the $7K- $12K range will give you great sound. Ones cheaper than those will as well. I have no doubt an uber expensive  streamer dac will provide you with a great listening experience but once the noise, jitter, distortion is below human hearing and a $2200 Benchmark DAC3 will do that the rest is eye candy and hyperbole. I'll  get flack for saying all this but try something like an Auralic Vega G2 for $6500, forget what they cost and just listen to streamers in that range against the others costing 4 times as much as then ask yourself are they even 5 % better? 

All those who chimed in saying ‘non-MQA support would be a deal breaker’.....while I respect their opinion, I would not discard any DAC/Streamer choices solely based on this feature. With ‘right’ components, Tidal HiFi and Qobuz Hi-Res files upto 24bit/196kHz sounds pretty amazing.

To my ears, MQA files sound slightly unnatural and bit ‘hot’ in upper frequency range. And we have yet to see universal support from the manufacturer of DA converters.

I can’t imagine anyone turning down T+A SDV3100 HV or EMM Labs DA2 just because they don’t support MQA 😊

djones51 has sound advice. that extra 5-10%can come at a very high cost. fwiw there is one thing that i feel strongly about. auditioning in another room with a different system won’t tell you very much about how something will sound in your home. never forget that you’re also listening to the room. 

qobuz is awesome btw and easy to use. i’ve had tidal and thought it not so good after trying qobuz. all audiophiles should at least give it trial. some of the hi rez titles leave little to be desired. i never got on with mqa. ymmv

Okay, guys lets get this into perspective, most of you do not have a store full of dacs we do!

The unfortunate point of all of this is there is good, there is better and there is the best of these kinds of products.

In this case ingnorance is bliss, if you care about spending less money.

We have the Lumin D2, the T2, the X1 which do represent the good, the better the best You can clearly hear the improvement as you go up the scale.

We are doing this morning a comparision the X1 vs the T+A SDV 3100 and again the sound takes a dramatic improvement in realisim, soundstage size and width, the sound becomes more real and much more musical. It is worth the price, yes if you can afford it and have the system to show you the difference.

As per the OP the T+A piece represents a fascinating opportunity to get a world class preamp that may dramatically improve the overall system’s sound as well as if he prefers the clearner sound of the T+A as a preamp then he can recoup some of his investment by selling the Mcintosh preamp.

When designing a system you can go with what "fits" which can mean anything or you can buy the best that you can.

If you remember the Linn concept which is the sound starts at the source the better the source the better the sound you can create.

Also a digital front end of this calibre means that the OP can continue to grow into this system by eventually moving into even better electronics if he prefers over the Mcintosh amplifiers, which would again he could continue to evolve his sound.

A top of the line front end would not be wasted in the context of the OP’s system, wether he choose DCS, MSB or T+A all of these top of the line front ends will help improve his system more so than a much cheaper front end.

Again we are writing this while doing exactly that same comparison on a $20k amp, a $32k pair of speakers, and just comparing two front ends, a very very good one ,the Lumin and one of the best in the world, the T+A, in the context of our system you can clearly hear the superiority of the better setup and yes it is worth it, however, without having the Lumin, the Formula and the other less expensive digital front ends to compare with you would be happy with one of those if you never experienced the next level you can accheive with a stelar dac such as the T+A.

Try the same comparison with a good car such as a entry level Mustang and the new Corvette does the extra $20-30k make you happier 

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ, Lumin, Aqua, T+A, dealers

Well in this case the source is the servers at Tidal or Qobuz and to add a little perspective I am not trying to sell anything if the OP ends up with a mega buck T+A or a NAD C658 as long as he is happy with the sound then it’s all good.

@asiufy @djones51 @rgmd11 @kren0006 @lalitk @thyname @4425 @hgeifman @audiotroy 

(and everyone else who has taken the time to post on this thread!)

thanks so much for the responses to my latest post enquiring about 'fit' of many of these units with my existing system.

I REALLY appreciate how respectfully and considerately some of you are raising current 'limitations' (maybe I should use the term 'considerations')lol) of my components wrt to some of the higher end DACs and players discussed.

Of course there are several factors that have driven my current setup, ranging from SO aesthetic approval, familiarity over the years with those brands/models, hearing them sound very pleasing to me with various analog sources, etc.

As part of the spirit of my post was to learn more - I would be curious to understand which Mcintosh components (or if its all a mismatch with my B&W 800's) I have that would be considered the primary mismatch (perhaps its all of it, as the ethos is just fundamentally different between Mcintosh/B&W and transparency/detail/resolution that the highest of the high end sources are looking to achieve) - and, particularly, what is it about them each that would be considered 'limiting', in this context?

Is it they are overly rounded off/colored?  for the amps, is it they lack power/headroom?  I would love to understand this better.  For example, it was noted the T+A SDV 3100 preamp might be a 'better' fit than my existing than my c1100 - why?  what characteristics make it a better fit?  if the 611 power amps are not great for this - why?  I am not arguing at all that the Mcintosh components are the right for this level of digital, just trying to sincerely understand why they are not.

Also, this part of the discussion got me to thinking - one of the things that people seem to potentially like in the analog world is 'musicality', sweetness, warmth, etc....is it fair to say that components that may be excellent with even some of the nicest turntables and tonearms out there aren't necessarily going to excel in the world of digital playback - and vice versa?

Or is the audiophile principle of 'transparency' just a universal truth and a set of downstream components from various sources (whether they are digital or analog sources) that achieves that transparency is what one wants for both analog and digital.

Finally, I just would like to thank everyone again for such great perspectives, considerations, and input....This IS a journey for me.  Some of my specific questions above are also about understanding where I am with my current system, what level of digital component quality and spend offers me as phenomenal performance as I can get with my current system, if I wanted to evolve beyond current limitations how I should view what those limitations are, what would need to change to overcome current constraints, and how something that 'fits' now and offers that 'as phenomenal performance I can get' within my current system and yet still provides a tangible pathway for upgrade if I got that route (without feeling like I 'wasted' money on a lesser component, now, that doesn't match with a potentially upgraded system later). 

Unless your reference is unamplified acoustic event, there is no universal truth. The first poor performance in the chain is microphone choice and then placement...
your Mac stuff is fine, you don’t need to throw the baby out with the bath water. Go listen to and better yet borrow a variety of DAC’s and or streamers.

An activity I strongly recommend, especially for those who already know it all, is an aural workout session at 2L Recordings ( The Nordic Sound ) downloads bench - many formats with same microphones and placement..,,,

My whole system is *only* a $20k system, but the Tidal difference between MQA and non-mqa in my system is very noticeable to me.
If OP has any plans to ever stream Tidal, I stick by my statement that not having a dac that supports MQA would be a dealbreaker, especially at these levels of cash outlay.
That is not to say that other things don’t sound good, but come on, if he/she talking about spending $20k plus on a digital unit, do you really want to miss out on Tidal’s top sound quality offerings?

Hi @kren0006

What DAC are you using??

Please let’s not turn this thread in a MQA debate. The MQA proponents and detractors are strongly entrenched in their own respective bunkers, and such debates can only lead to flame wars

Roon seriously exaggerates the CPU they need, so long as you aren’t resampling to DSD.

I use an AMD A 10 78xx and with several EQ functions engaged it barely gets to 4% CPU utilization. Even PCM upsampling is negligible.

@thyname I agree !

Well said @thyname

Please let’s not turn this thread [into] a MQA debate.

@erik_squires, Currently no DAC being used.

"Its my first foray into digital streaming and I have no need for a CD player." OP

+1 to @lalitk 's advice and perspective on his post re. this >

“I would be curious what ’level’ of DAC would you say is commensurate with my general Mcintosh system of c1100/611 and B&W 800 d3 speakers?

is the MSB line/T+A 3100 overkill? is it the next step up that would be lost in my current system, above?”

@ufguy73  

Two general principles [highly simplified] you are addressing (per your recent posts) are system wide component 'parity'  AND 'synergy.'  

Since a DAC or Streamer/DAC or DAC/Pre or Streamer/DAC/Pre is upstream, you are correct to push for / stretch for a higher level component.

You can start addressing parity and synergy (if need be) once you are comfortable with the new component in your current system. 

Forming future / 'idealized' system level goals to guide your component choices will be helpful.

@ufguy73, People who love listening to music realize that it is a lot easier to put together a really good system when you choose it based on HOW it sounds to "your ears".   We do not all hear things the same, we do not all have same desires of a system's sonic delivery and character and everyone's environment is different.  In addition, everyone has a different budget meaning you choose an audio system depending on how it sounds AND how much it costs.  

I suggest you listen to your audio system, AGAIN, and see what happens.  Does the music move you? Does the music sound great? Does the music get your attention? OR, does the music sound dull and flat? Does the bass sound okay or not?  How is the imaging?  Does the music have feeling or is it dull?  Does the music sound clear and with more musical detail?  How do the vocals sound?  If your audio system sound great, you are done!  If not, then you need to examine your components and decide what change, if any, needs to be made.  Sometimes maybe all you need is a cable upgrade.  

If you are unable to make these decisions, then go listen to live music to hear what good sound sounds like.  AND, also, go to your local audio retailer and listen to their systems to help decide what you like and do not like.  Visit your friends and listen to their audio systems.   You need to audition these components and decided what sounds you like.  If you are still UNABLE to decide, it means you are NOT ready. This means you need to do more listening.  If possible, see if you can borrow a component to see how it sounds in your listening room.  And, most important, do not rush the process.   I hope this helps.

Erik_squires,
Teac NT-505 dac/streamer. Dual mono AK4497’s, dual toroidal power supplies, fully balanced XLR, dual onboard clocks, full MQA support, great analog output section, upsample to DSD512, Lumin software, etc.... Amazing dac for $2k ("Esoteric-lite" I call it since Teac parent company of Esoteric - poor man’s Esoteric). I love it. Rest of system is Audio Research integrated amp and Spendor D7 and Rel S5 and MIT speaker/IC cables, Audio Art power and sub neutrik cables, Richard Gray power conditioner.

MQA a couple of steps higher than regular Tidal through my main system. I exclusively source Tidal. I have lesser systems (Bluesound, Integra) that fully decode MQA where I can’t really hear difference, but on *my* reference system I certainly can and I would never give that up.

[[granted, my system is different level than this thread deals with, but to me that’s all the more reason to demand MQA support if spending that kind of money as OP is considering -- if it makes huge difference with my $20k system and $2k DAC, why would you spend the $$ OP talking about without that feature, especially if concerned about future-proofness?? Nobody knows where MQA will be in 5 yrs, granted, but why take the chance? At a minimum is it not a feature to completely ignore, as some here seem to want to do. Relevant feature at a minimum, whether OP decides it is necessary or not. I’m just providing my personal experiences as an owner having 3 systems that fully decode MQA and being an exclusive Tidal user -- yes MQA makes huge difference if you have the system quality to resolve those differences -- if you don’t (and two of my three systems do not have that quality), then it doesn’t matter]]

Whether there’s something better than MQA I can’t say and don’t want to start an argument about that. I’m speaking from personal experience and to me it makes a noticeable difference on Tidal (when that is all I’m talking about) if your system is at a certain level of performance. As I said, only my reference system is. My second and third systems are not and I can’t hear MQA difference there, despite having full MQA decode there also (but those are $3k and $2k systems - quality not there to resolve the distinctions, IMO).

If the upstream signal quality is compromised you cannot somehow miraculously correct the shortcomings further downstream,???

 But this is exactly what people are telling ufguy73 he can do with a $35000 streamer/dac. Digital streaming is a whole new ballgame, it’s different from vinyl and CD where your front end piece the TT/cart/arm or CD player is the front end in streaming the front end is a room full of servers sitting hundreds if not thousands of miles away. So if this signal is compromised before it hits your modem how is a mega $$$ streamer going to miraculously fix it any better than a Sonos? If the signal isn’t compromised which means you actually get the signal in digital you either get it or you don’t. Now what that streamer does with it is what matters and until it hits that dac which changes this digital to analog has more to do with not messing up the signal in any way and as long as the dac can do its job the streamer did its job. How easy the user environment is is one of the most important aspects of the streamer that and not degrading the digital signal beyond repair by the dac.

Thanks for the info @kren0006

Do you have any other high resolution sources, or would you say it’s almost all Tidal? I’m wondering if you can compare both to Redbook (44.1 kHz/16 bit) on your DAC.

Thanks,

Erik

erik_squires,
I’m an oddball and really do not. I’m probably the only person on A’gon who went straight from CD’s in the 80’s, 90’s to Tidal streaming in 2019 without ever downloading a digital music file. Skipped the whole Napster/Apple Music/ everything else for last 20 years. Why? I don’t know, to be honest. Kids, work, family, life, who knows? Then I found streaming and game changer -- back in audio in last year in huge way like I hadn’t been since the 90’s.

So long story short, no, I only use Tidal and I’m like a kid in the candy store now with unlimited (to me anyway) access to everything music. I’m sure eventually I’ll add a second service to cover the things I can’t get on Tidal but I can’t see ever going vinyl or hi-res downloads just too big a rabbit hole cash wise for me today. Maybe in 10-20 years when my kids are grown and I’m retired and have unlimited time and more $$.

In a home environment the " front end" component is your modem. It takes the analog signal and turns it into digital by MOdulate and DEModulate. In other words it’s basically a ADC incoming and DAC outgoing. So the signal sent to your router then streamer is only as good as that analog to digital converter in your $100 modem, either it works or doesn’t. No one said the streamer/dac is moot but the notion it’s the "front end" of the chain like a CD player or TT is not accurate. It’s a middle of a chain component. I never said they all sound the same I said in my opinion the most important role of a streamer is the ease of use through its interface and making sure the signal gets to the dac without degrading it. The only thing a streamer could do to interfere with the signal which would affect the sound is by adding noise or distortion so the quality matters but not to the extent that the dac does.

Go for Lampizator or EAR yoshino

It is interesting that Djones is discussing the role of the modem.  Would the same streamer/DAC sound different if connected to different brand modems or different quality modems within a brand?

OP,

You are asking a lot of excellent questions regarding component selection and integration into an already well conceived system.

Here’s an analogy to think about, and in advance I’ll state there are additional layers that could be developed but that would take more time than I have right now.

Think about it like a multilevel chess game (or that game they played on STTNG). To get the equation or formula just right, you need to win on all of the levels. All levels involve compatibility.

One important level, and the one I was referring to in my first post regarding your Macs and why I thought pairing them with a warm dac would be bad is what I call the sound temperature level. I wrote about this recently on another thread but think about a sound spectrum from zero to 100, where 0 is cold, dull, boring, 100 is hot, hurts your ears, and 50 is neutral. 25-40 might be what some call “warm,” and 60-85 might be what some call “bright” (and you could fill rest of that spectrum in with any number of other descriptors but you get the point).

This is a good time to say there in no one right answer, even though some will claim there is. You might be a “20 person” and for you 20 is perfect on the temp chart. Or a 68 person, or a straight up 50 person. Like a sleep number bed. No right answer.

That said, we can think of each component as falling somewhere along the temp spectrum (though everyone hears differently and since no independent ratings org, we have to estimate).
Let’s say for sake of argument your Macs are 20-30 range. Just a guess I haven’t heard your stuff. Just illustrating the concept. And similarly let’s say your 800s are in the 75-85 range.
If that’s correct maybe that explains why Mc/BW historically a popular pairing ( since many people on sleep number scale may like a “final combined sound number” within 40-60. 

I’m not saying final number a simple average (before someone jumps on me for that). This is discussional not scientific.

So anyway now you probably see why I implied adding a warm (20-30ish) dac might not be good synergistic addition.

Level two: Resolvability level. Not to be confused with cost level but somewhat related. You could also call this quality level but I like resolvability better. I’ll use my systems as example, and since dacs are topical here we’ll use them.

I own the Teac and Bluesound dacs/streamers and use both daily for multiple hours. For argument sake I’d say both of them fit within the 40-60 window above on the sound temperature scale described above (both fairly neutral). But on the resolvability scale of this level of the chess board they differ substantially. The former punches way above its $2k cost weight class to point I can comfortably use with my ARC/Spendor D series reference system (again, my reference is not at level of your reference, (but someday I will be hopefully)), and the Teac is not out of its league with the ARC and Spendor resolvability wise even though cost wise it is much lower cost (to my ears anyway).

The Bluesound, by contrast, no, it works in my much lower resolving system but that’s it. It can’t resolve at level of Teac and is like a C youth hockey player trying to fit in on the A team (everyone in the stands is like, wth is that kid doing on the A team, that’s a C player -I’m a youth hockey coach last 12 yrs, another reason explaining my 20 yr absence). The Bluesound would be out of place in my reference system (recall my earlier statements about where I can hear dramatic MQA improvements and where I can’t) and it would drag my reference system down in an unacceptable manner (like the C player pushed up to the A team).


A third level is cost and fitting everything within you budget and still winning at each level.

so those are three levels and you could extend it many more but I’m out of time for now .....

As with any analogy there will be infinite ways to poke holes in it. Offered as food for thought not as a holy grail of audio wisdom

@jetter, upstream component selection would likely not play a role to the 
same extent. That is Data packets are streamed and memory buffer before procesing. Bytes is Bytes ...

@kren0006 really great analogy!

I follow how you laid it out.. So, I gather (lets not quibble about the absolute numbers) Mcintosh would be considered on the warmer side of things - both the preamp and power amp?

I also agree that my speakers are neutral-to-analytical for me.

Given that, I agree a neutral-to-revealing DAC might be the way to go.  I gather from various reviews, etc. that MSB and T+A might be on the warmer side of what we have been talking to here - at least, T+A seems to be regarded that way, maybe not so much MSB.

Would we say MSB/T+A, although maybe a touch warmer and refined than DCS, would not be overly 'soft' with my system?

I recognize only my ears will ultimately decide but would like to think about things a little bit before seeing in practice.

@hgeifman thanks so much for chiming in so extensively!  Part of the issue is I don't have a current digital setup, so not a benchmark in my own system, yet.  I don't really have a dealer around me for most of these brands - and definitely not one that crosses several of them.

So, my plan of attack is to narrow down to 2-3 and see about getting demo/loaner units (shipped out of state if I need to) so that I can try them in my own home/system.  just in terms of logistics/practicalities, I am trying to narrow that first pass a little bit before ultimately letting my own ears decide!

@audiotroy 

I would be curious on your thoughts on the T+A being overly warm with my components - and also how you view the lack of MQA (not so much the relative merits of the format itself - maybe, lets just assume that some things have an increase in SQ when put thru MQA) in the unit?

also, for everyone, Bartok has been thrown out a couple times subsequent to my identifying what I've currently got...I am curious (if I could swing the incremental cost) if folks think I would have practical improvement in doing a Rossini in my system vs a Bartok (and/or if it would be worth going up to the Rossini for future purposes)?

As it stands right now, I think I would like to try an MSB Premier, DCS Bartok (or Rossini - probably need to decide which one), and something at a bit lesser price point to see if can detect the added bang for the buck (either a Mytek or maybe Luminary's t2)...im really intrigued by the T+A 3100 but the 'politeness' and the MQA still has me worried.

A MSB Discrete with dual discrete power supplies and the ProISL USB module (MSRP ~ $13,500 as configured) would be a fairer comparison to dCS Bartok. The Premier, especially with power base and upgraded clock, will be in a totally different league

OP, right on Mc and BW based on general consensus but I am not familiar with the particular models.  My comments are more illustrative on one simplified way of approaching options. 
 I’d defer on the dac recommendations because I haven’t experience with any of those hi end units. 
Only actual listening sessions BY YOU matter at end of day. 
Good luck 

Hi @ufguy73 (OP): if you are serious on MSB, email Vince Galbo (Vince @ MSBtechnology.com). They have a traveling Demo fleet that you can try at home with no dealer involvement. If you are happy though, you have to purchase through dealers

I have a very strong suspicion you will be very happy even with the Discrete. PM me if you want to discuss further. I have owned over 15 DACs over the past few years 

The thing to consider with DCS is whether you’d also get the Rossini clock. If psychologically you’d never be happy sans clock then that 7.5k has to be considered in the total cost. I’m personally conflicted on the real benefit of the clock. DCS naturally advocates the clock but I definitely don’t believe that a Bartok won’t sound great without one. It would sort of destroy the ‘budget’ nature of the Bartok. ymmv

@thyname  good point on the DCS/MSB equivalence.

I guess, honestly, I am wondering if the Rossini and/or Premier would be wasted too much in my current system because (if not) I'd actually prefer to come in at the Rossini/Premier level.

I suppose if the Rossini/Premier are just going to make no difference with my current components, I probably should do the Bartok to Discrete comparison, instead.

Ill give Vince a shout out...I think they may be around the South Bay?  Im actually in the East Bay Area so maybe something could be easily arranged.  I will PM you, if I can figure it out (not very familiar with this forum functionality...its already strange to me not to be able to 'like' or quote, directly lol).

@kren0006 thanks again for the input!

@4425 I know this may not make sense...but, honestly, if I did the Bartok I would not get the clock...if I did the Rossini I would either eventually get the clock (or potentially upgrade the entire system and to a Vivaldi, depending on how bad I was bitten lol)....irrational, I know :)

i actually do know where you are coming from. if you make the jump to a rossini then you’re going to want the clock at some point. i think of the Bartok as being so good on its own for its ‘budget’ price that you won’t worry so much about passing on a rossini and clock for $31000. ja blindfold comparison would be highly interesting. the reviews on the bartok seem to indicate that it could be the end of the road for most audiophiles. 

Right, exactly!

ufguy73,

I agree that you should give Vince a call, if anything, just to talk to the man, as he's a fountain of knowledge and useful info.
But given your situation, a forum is not the best place for you right now. You should really find a dealer and work with him. He should be able not only to answer your questions (in regards to your whole system, not only DACs), as well as provide gear for you to evaluate.
We are in California too, though on the Southern end :) If there's no one local to you that you like, you're welcome to reach out and maybe i can help.

cheers,
Alex
Alma Music and Audio

I have not read all of the responses.  I believe this to be important/relevant and timely subject matter.  Thanks for starting the thread.  I have been able to audition a couple of high end DAC’s.  Before I get into those...my listening taste leans toward warm and accurate sounding classic rock, southern blues and plain old blues.
I stream both Qobuz and Tidal through a Roon+ (the Roon is a constant in all my auditions).
The two DAC’s I auditioned were the MSB Select II and the Chord Dave combined with Chords MScaler.  The results (to my ears) were opposite of the price points.  The Chord combination sounded significantly warmer and guitars, pianos and drums came across as the “real thing” in terms of accuracy. You should be able to get the Roon+, Chord Dave and Chord MScaler combination for under $25K.  This does not include proper cables which is another subject.
I suggest auditioning this Roon/Chord combination....Really hard to beat!  Have fun

@jworth thanks for chiming in!

im a guitar player myself and, in addition to classical, i predominantly lean toward blues, classic rock, bit of hard rock myself (you know, guitar-centric stuff lol).

i’ve heard good things about the Dave.

@asiufy i hear you - ive been very fortunate to benefit from everyone being kind enough to share their opinions and knowledge on this thread and am very grateful.

of course, I also recognize the inherent limitations associated with trying to gather thoughts on something that is ultimately subjective - and trying do so on a forum!

I am in communication with a local dealer, now, to see if he can make some connections with MSB and DCS (which he currently doesn’t have) - ideally, i can work with someone locally but if that doesn’t pan out I will definitely reach out and take you up on your kind offer!

ufguy73...fwiw i searched for all reviews of the bartok and can’t remember a product receiving such universal praise. i’m getting one for sure. 

@4425 as of right now, I'm actually leaning toward the Bartok also....I am not sure if I really want to A/B with a Rossini...perhaps I should set the 15k or so the Bartok runs as the ceiling and only listen to that level of price or lower (ie to ensure I can tell I am getting something compared to something like a Mytek price point, etc.).

It would also leave some cash for a TT analog setup, which I know might be heresy in this sub-forum lol

you’ll be very happy w the bartok as will I. 

I have a very strong suspicion you will be very happy even with the MSB Discrete.
MSB, email Vince Galbo (Vince @ MSBtechnology.com). They have a traveling Demo fleet that you can try at home with no dealer involvement. If you are happy though, you have to purchase through dealers

+1, and this is a great way to audition, at home, your own system, no dealers!

Cheers George