Higher End DACs

Taiko Audio SGM Extreme 6Moons review:

"The Mount Everest of PC-Based Streamers"  Blue Moon Award!

https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/taiko/

@mikelavigne   Would you still recommend the SGM if one is only streaming? Put another way, no local file playback. I remember you making the same point as the reviewer, far earlier regarding local file playback being superior to streaming. 

I ask, because I don't have a reference point. For example, despite the local file playback superiority, streaming via the Taiko SGM Extreme may surpass other options?

I'm looking for a Roon Server (only). Therefore, the question. Thank You!

@mikelavigne   Mike, thank you so much for your response and the details you shared. As always, your contributions are informative and helpful.

When I'm ready, I'll reach out to Emile to see if he can configure the SGM for Roon only functionality. I'm asking Jord Groen of Pink Faun the same. However, losing the Roon Rendering function that both have devoted part of their design / build efforts to is a concern for me. Those are tradeoffs I need to resolve for myself.

Meanwhile I have mid level servers from Wolf Audio and Innuos inbound. They should offer insight into the level of difference(s) versus my current Roon server. These comparisons will also inform whether a major step up is warranted.

@dmance "the magic is [going] away"  Any solutions for your  tone deafness? 

@dmance  Any reason why you are unable or unwilling to start a thread focused on your own product?  

There is value in what's been recently discussed. There's also value in having focused discussions that are on topic and are not disjointed because of thread drift. 

The usual scenery from a prime seat on the doppelgänger express...

+1 @cleeds 

Reading some of these comments relative to streaming makes one's head spin. Do you actually sit down and listen to music or just worry about all of this technical stuff. Glad I still spin cds.

To reinforce what Cleeds shared above... IF others are taking away a similar message to @facten 's post:

Streaming is straightforward and easy enough.  As an example, no issues with my 100% streaming system. Music is on 12 to 14 hours a day. No hiccups. 

@khiak  First, congratulations on your T+A SDV 3100 HV.

Since you are "new [to] streaming" ... as a starting point I recommend going with Tidal first. That is Tidal direct, versus going through Roon.

The SDV can accept Tidal Direct wireless or via your CAT7 cable from your router. You can control Tidal via your iPadPro (using Tidal's App)  OR directly via the T+A Control App which offers Tidal, qobuz, Deezer, control.

@khiak I expect the Tidal App on your iPad will be vastly superior and I encourage you to use it.

The T+A app will allow for simple control of Tidal.

I have the SDV. Congrats on the SD!!!

@audiotroy  Valid points. I am aware of the stated 'superiority' of the USB input over the LAN input. 

However, @khiak is in the beginning stages with respect to streaming. Therefore, WiFi / LAN for Tidal makes sense as a starting point (for him). I'm sure, as he develops his familiarity, comfort level,  knowledge and understanding of streaming he will move in directions that include Roon as well as possibly choosing USB.

In my case, when I conducted the comparisons with my former chain, the LAN input was superior to the USB. So, for now, I am LAN in direct from my server (dual / bridged LAN).

I have servers coming in for evaluation so I can tease out which input I end up choosing and whether I can live with a pure server option OR I need to go with a Server/Renderer ala Innuos / Wolf Audio / Pink Faun / Taiko. 

@khiak  If you haven't already done so, you will need to review the 'Network Configuration' section of the manual and go through the setup protocols, per your needs.  Following this, refer to the 'Operating Music Services' section of the manual.

If you have specific questions, please PM me.

@khiak  PM sent. Best to discuss offline and not derail the thread.

Mike, I’d also love to hear your thoughts on the OP’s question above.

I’m not disagreeing with @mikelavigne here...however, I started a thread (linked below) regarding the question in the preceding post, and the feedback points to the DAC as being more important. [Note: this is a relative distinction]

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/does-the-buck-start-with-the-dac

I’ve been auditioning a ’higher end’ all in one and unfortunately I will not be able to test it with different server. My gut ’sense’ (with respect to this specific unit) is that the server is less critical (to go all out on) in this application. Hopefully I will be able to test and find out for myself definitively.

@mikelavigne Thanks for your responses.

Let me clarify because there is an important distinction to be made and I want to make sure you and others understand my earlier post.

My question is regarding SERVERS. The Taiko Extreme is both Server and Renderer.

My position, is that the RENDERING functionality is the greater differentiator.

Mike, given my clarification, is your position the same or does it change?

It is something I will eventually test, however the current time frame for my ongoing audition will not allow for it. Should I purchase the unit I’m evaluating, I will be able to do so.

Here is a straightforward "definition" provided on the Antipodes website:

"SERVER – The Server organises your music, and displays your library, streaming services and radio stations on the Remote Control’s screen. When told to play a file, the Server pushes the music file to a Renderer.

RENDERER – The Renderer turns the music file into a digital audio signal to send to your DAC."

Here are ’denser’ definitions (of Server and Renderer) from the Absolute Sound:

"Some companies refer to their products as a “server” (or “music server” or “media server”). The term comes from computer science. A server is half of a so-called “client-server architecture.” This architecture partitions tasks between a server and a client, which typically communicate over a network. A server does nothing until it receives a request from a client to perform a service. NAS is a familiar example of a server. It receives requests from other devices on the network to provide the contents of files that it stores. Only a few of the products in Table 2 called servers are actually servers. A network bridge or network player is actually a client. Neither a direct bridge nor a direct player is a server because they do not respond to requests for samples; they simply present a stream of samples to a DAC (either internal or external) and assume that the DAC can digest them.

“Media renderer” is a term from the UPnP AV protocol, which specifies how devices connected to a LAN can cooperate to play a media file stored on one device (a “media server”) on another device (a “media renderer”). Although we are dealing with architectures in which devices are connected directly as well as ones in which they are connected over a network, it might have made sense to extend terminology meant for the network scenario if the terminology were brilliant. Unfortunately, it is not. “Rendering” is a term borrowed from computer graphics, where it refers to the process of generating an image from a model (e.g., a wireframe sketch). The samples that we want to convey to the DAC to produce the desired analog output are not a model of an analog signal; they are a digital representation of the signal. “Media converter” would have been a better description of the device. Note that this defect applies to video as well, so even in the context of UPnP, “renderer” was a bad choice. The term is also very techy, or as Neil Gader said in a recent review [TAS 248], “just a bit too Black Ops creepy.”"

https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/understanding-digital-music-systems-1/?page=2

[Note: Mike, are you using your MSB Select II with a rendering module? Taiko as server only or MSB as DAC only? Thanks]

@mikelavigne   Thank you for your detailed response and for summarizing the progression and gains through to the present. Your post and other contributions in the thread are very helpful and highlight things I need to be aware of, and consider, should I make choices in these areas.

@ed_nyc  Great to learn more about the development of the Taiko Extreme and the 'Extreme Ways' Path. : )  Thanks for the excellent information.

Only focusing on the two...

any fatal flaws with focusing on these 2 for the purposes above

@ufguy73 My advice is to find your own way.

is there another brand or two you would otherwise start with - and why?

Not knowing you, I do not. I know what works for me. Does that translate to you, I have no idea.

I would expand your approach by looking at different implementations / design goals to get a better feel for which draws you in more.

It’s difficult to "break out" what a single component is doing within and for a system that one is unfamiliar with (i.e. at a dealer) so be careful in that regard. In other words, consider the entire system for perspective and comparative purposes; not just the DAC.

@mikelavigne Thanks for the update and link to romaz’s posts.

Thanks also for the opportunity to learn about the designs and efforts that are pushing boundaries, even if they are way outside of most budgets.

@ufguy73 and @mikelavigne   Thank you for your detailed and thorough responses. Very helpful!

ufguy73:    Take a look at CH Precision as well. The C1 specifically. Their lineup will address your needs should you want to go for in-house synergy as you build your system (SACD/CD Transport, Clock, etc.).

@ufguy73 and @mikelavigne It will be helpful if you put numbers up for comparisons with / to the other available options. Mike, in your system, the additional spend on cables and isolation, etc. for the Select II. Thanks.

@ufguy73   It's good to see you considering the T+A SDV 3100 HV.  As you already know, you can add a Transport ahead of it, should discs be important.

As a standalone unit, it offers you streaming (and more), the digital to analog conversion, and analog preamplification and volume. In other words, it covers nearly all of your stated needs and goals.

I second @rgmd11 's recommendation for the SDV. It is a phenomenal component. I've had the opportunity to evaluate it in my own system for three weeks.

I have also auditioned the dCS range at a dealer and listened to the Rossini in a couple of audio friend's systems. There is a similarity in house sound / signature and as others have already pointed out...the gains are apparent as you go up the line. The Rossini would be my personal target (standalone) since the Vivaldi deserves the full stack treatment, which of course means significant separation on budget. 

to be clear, you find some similarities between DCA and T+A house sound? How would you generalize?

@ufguy73 I do not find similarities (between dCS and T+A)...IF I define "similarities" by sound signature.

dCS clearly makes wonderful and high performing components. I know many audiophiles love what dCS does and how it goes about doing it and are ecstatic with dCS in their systems.

To my ears, let me repeat: to my ears and preferences... they come across as too clean, too pristine and lack that elusive emotional connection and involvement. Something major is missing for me.

Whether this was due to the other parts of the systems I listened to, I can’t say with certainty. However, how I experience their ’sound’ hasn’t changed across multiple systems. The only way I can tease this out is to have one or more of their units in my own system and to optimize it’s performance per my needs and preferences.

The T+A SDV 3100 HV simply checks all of the boxes I need it to check for my personal sound quality and sound performance metrics and needs.

You need to find out which house sound does the same for you. Is it dCS or MSB or CH Precision or T+A or another manufacturer. How these components ’play’ within your system (specifically your other current components) will also be a major factor.

P.S. I second @audiotroy ’s point about the SDV’s pre-amplification stage. It is excellent!!!

+1 to @lalitk 's advice and perspective on his post re. this >

“I would be curious what ’level’ of DAC would you say is commensurate with my general Mcintosh system of c1100/611 and B&W 800 d3 speakers?

is the MSB line/T+A 3100 overkill? is it the next step up that would be lost in my current system, above?”

Well said @thyname

Please let’s not turn this thread [into] a MQA debate.

@ufguy73  

Two general principles [highly simplified] you are addressing (per your recent posts) are system wide component 'parity'  AND 'synergy.'  

Since a DAC or Streamer/DAC or DAC/Pre or Streamer/DAC/Pre is upstream, you are correct to push for / stretch for a higher level component.

You can start addressing parity and synergy (if need be) once you are comfortable with the new component in your current system. 

Forming future / 'idealized' system level goals to guide your component choices will be helpful.

whatever diminished relevance this thread was clinging to

@mikelavigne   hopefully this meets your definition of diminished relevance... Love It!  : )

OP:  unless you have budgetary constraints, my advice is to stick to the initial intent of your thread. In other words, push yourself.

It is well worth the spend irrespective of brand chosen.

In that vein, I recommend the Rossini over the Bartok. The differences and superiority were clear in my extended audition. The Rossini also offers more if you add additional dCS chassis/ boxes.

If you can get MSB to loan one of their solutions, go for it. Likewise for other brands.

Finally, I would not let MQA drive a choice. Doing so is sub - TREE. I'll go further and say it's GRASS...and not the kind that's fun to get lost in. [Note: this is coming from someone who appreciates MQA]

Get above the treeline. Evaluate wholistically. 

@ufguy73 I stream both Tidal and Qobuz. My current DAC does not decode the second MQA ’unfold.’

I listen, daily, to a number of MQA tracks where Roon performs the first unfold... HOWEVER, I AM NOT picky in terms of preferring MQA coded over non-MQA files in Tidal  OR  where Tidal offers MQA and a higher resolution via the first unfold over a "lower resolution" file via Qobuz.

My answer, at the simplest level: nice to have but far from necessary. That, again, is from a daily listening perspective.

It is a total non-factor in terms of component choice as there are far more important considerations (for me).

This may serve as an analogy, though not a perfect one:

I’m car shopping. For me, it would be akin to rejecting a choice in a car because I’m looking for a specific tread pattern and that car’s stock tires don’t offer it.

perhaps you should consider starting another thread

Good advice, @ufguy73

As the OP, if you reach out to Audiogon Forum Support and request it, they will (usually) delete posts unrelated to your thread. It will mean your flagging the posts. Do it sequentially, so they see the pattern.

I had forgotten about Métronome Technologie’s c/AQWO DAC. Stereophile has it’s review online now.

"My target is always to make people forget that they’re listening to digital files," [Jean Marie] Clauzel told me the morning after the units were installed. "Some digital equipment is so detailed and so cold; it’s not warm enough and not musical enough. We want a very different product, even if it has imperfections. ... I prefer something that may have imperfections, but that excels in quality, musicality, and an analog feel."

https://www.stereophile.com/content/metronome-technologie-aqwo-sacdcd-transport-and-da-processor

@rower30   Great points and perspective.