I am looking for a DAC (potentially streamer&DAC) to be paired in a mcintosh system (c1100/611). Its my first foray into digital streaming and I have no need for a CD player.
I see a lot of love for Esoteric, however, most seems to be around their transports? Are they not as renowned for pure digital streaming and/or standalone DACs? I see DCS (for instance) often referenced for standalone DACs - how does Esoteric compare?
@tubeguy76 cant talk about Denafrips, never had a chance to listen, but had and enjoyed very much a Chord Qutest. It has a natural tone, is detailed and sweet. You can also select different filters that alter the sound. The orange filter mellows the highs nicely if that’s what you’re after. One drawback with the Qutest is the soundstage is somewhat on a smaller side. That’s a compromise. Other than that it’s a really good DAC.
Thanks for the thoughts, it sounds like the Qutest might be one I could enjoy for a long time. I wish I could try all of these out before buying.
@tubeguy76cant talk about Denafrips, never had a chance to listen, but had and enjoyed very much a Chord Qutest. It has a natural tone, is detailed and sweet. You can also select different filters that alter the sound. The orange filter mellows the highs nicely if that’s what you’re after. One drawback with the Qutest is the soundstage is somewhat on a smaller side. That’s a compromise. Other than that it’s a really good DAC.
I hope this is an ok place to ask this question. I'm looking to replace my current DAC which is a SMSL DO200 and move that to my PC for headphone use. I was looking at the Chord Qutest and the Denafrips Ares II or Pontus II. I can get the Chord used for around 1k so it's in the ball park of the other two.
I do like a detailed sound but I don't like a bright sound so I'm leaning towards the Denafrips offerings but the Chord is supposed to be very good so I dunno. I'm a bit at a loss of what to do.
I am using an Auralic Aries G2 streamer and it works very well, has galvanic isolation on the output and a very good app. Auralic are good at providing updates to the app and firmware and I've known them to continue providing updates for discontinued products for some years.
This goes into a Chord M-Scaler and then on to a DAVE.
I am very pleased with this streamer/DAC setup.
I did try an Auralic Vega G2 all-in-one streamer/DAC and it was exceptionally good.
Recently, REMASTERO (https://www.remastero.com/pggb.html) announced PGGB offline remastering with sinc filter reconstruction using hundreds of millions of taps and advanced noise shaping. The process is offline ...meaning a source file is converted to a ultra high resolution WAV file and fed to DACs capable of 8fs, 16fs or higher sample-rate USB/DX input. I recently evaluated this with my Chord Dave and compared it to Chord MSCALER or HQPlayer upsampled source files. No contest ... the PGGB version was stunningly better and points to the possibility that essentially infinitely wide filters can achieve optimal Nyquist-Shannon reconstruction. And since all the intellectual property is offline, I think this opens the door to inexpensive end-game DACs.
Its worth your own eval and listen using the free 30-day trial.
@rower30 ...Audio is like the stock market, a commodity price has been set with the weaknesses boiled in. If a $2,000 level technology DAC was really as good as a $35K DAC, the answer would not stay a secret for long...
Well said, with the caveat that rich DAC buyers have good ears.
Anybody on this thread have a listen to the new Gustard X26 Pro DAC. I own one and think it is great DAC using a Sonore OpticalRendu for streaming. I am not looking to change it but was curious as to how it compares to more expensive DACs.
Playback Design is the only DAC on the planet to my knowledge that uses Proprietary PLink Connector from Streamer to DAC (Fiber Optic)
Meitner uses a proprietary Optical Link ("Optilink") which is a glass fiber cable to connect the Meitner/EMM Labs DAC and Transport (or streamer, if you go that route).
DAC sound as different as phono cartridges. We seem to be stuck comparing really good DAC's that alter balance a little here or there, verses comparingnthem to lesser DAC's that are just not able to even compete in the "best" DAC space. I had a so called giant killer DAC and it is good, but it isn't near the SD3100HV's capability in sound or flexibility. It wasn't designed to be. It was designed to be as good as it can be for a price and it met that goal.
Can a "giant killer" VW GTI or HONDA civic type R compete with a 911 turbo? Stop the madness, of course not. In DAC's we seem to have this odd fixation that a DAC that is reaching good performance for the price is good at any price. Nonesense.
I had the opportunity to listen to a T+A MP3100 HV, which has the SACD unit built-in, compared to my DAC in the exact same system, mine, and DAC to DAC. As good as my old DAC is (it rates class A even today) the T+A was solidly better. To my ear and that difference is of course subjective, but there was no going back. Clarity, drive, openness everything took a leap up. It was like new mixes of my sources. And yes, the price leaped about as far as the sound change did.
I now OWN the stand alone SD3100HV DAC. This DAC is incredible for the sound, and why I bought it. The extreme flexibility is a bonus, and not worth a cent without the sound. It is an expensive DAC for sure but the cost works in this case. A DAC is the "sound" of your system now-a-days. We like to start as "perfect" as we can and erode from there. You can't replace what isn't there to start with. Your initial source is so important. For digital the SD3100HV is that level of perfection. There can be nuances at the very top, but we are comparing like DAC's with appropriate capability.
Be realistic, though. Don't bring a VW GTI to a Porsche 911 fight and claim you were on the same lap in a one lap race when in a two lap race you'd be lapped and passed. There can be an admirable loss, but a loss is a loss. If you want to get ahead, there is a true cost to it.
Everything has a proper level of argument and to be fair to products and the effots to get the best at a set price we need to honor that effort but in the proper context. To move something clear out of it's cost to benefit mix is a disservice to everyone who wants a clear ranking of these DAC's. I heard that "argument" and it didn't get too far. The GTI was dead in the water before the first word is spoken in the wrong company. Why is a DAC any different? No offense to GTI owners, I own one and I know when and why it loses. I also know when and why my older good DAC isn't a GREAT DAC. But pull the price down and that good DAC becomes a compellingly good purchase, like the GTI.
Audio is like the stock market, a commodity price has been set with the weaknesses boiled in. If a $2,000 level technology DAC was really as good as a $35K DAC, the answer would not stay a secret for long. My GTI surprises no one. Neither will a cheaper DAC.
Not just Playback has an optical link .... Chord DX DACs can have the benefit of a high resolution optical link from source/upscaler to DAC using OPTO-DX. And for those totally on digital streaming, the combination of a software PCM upsampler (Roon+HQPlayer) direct to DAC (Dave or Hugo TT2) gets pretty close to endgame. No galvanic link means zero conducted RF noise on the signal as all the computational heavy lifting is separated from the DAC. And then paying attention to DAC power RF isolation and radiated RF (and magnetic field) isolation means you don't need to jump to an uber expensive DAC. At this high level, it's all about RF elimination.
Even if money is no object, i will still stick to the Playback Design.
When i sold off my MSB DAC, I then went off to Total DAC and then Lampi. Both of these dacs are very fine too and not much to complain about. I did have Noise issues with the Lampi which drove me nuts. The Total DAC was another good contender.
MSB to my Ears is a very fine DAC. It gets silly expensive as you go up the line and the difference in quality becomes smaller and smaller.
Overall--Im so settled now with the Dream DAC that i care not about any new Tech or DACs that hit the market. I just can’t seem to part ways with this sonic signature anymore. This is what I was always been looking for in a DAC, which can allow me to listen to music without always feeling something was lacking or fatigue putting me to a stop. I have an Ultra Revealing setup. I am always lost in the music and always seem to lose track of time. I could never say the same about the other dacs I previously owned.
To me, this is one of the most Underrated Hardware in Digital at the moment. Playback Design doesn’t seem to pump much money into marketing. IF they did, it would have a higher commanding price, and I am sure it will win more hearts and mind. To some point, I’m glad they have kept the price to more real-world affordability.
gone are those days where you need 80-120K to justify a Digital Playback System.
Digital Source is getting better and better,
Playback Design is the only DAC on the planet to my knowledge that uses
Proprietary
PLink Connector from Streamer to DAC (Fiber Optic)
“All digital input signals (including DSD64) are converted to DSD128 with our proprietary frequency and time domain algorithms that also includes an apodizing filter. DSD256 is processed separately. Before the DSD128 or processed DSD256 signals are converted to analog, we use another proprietary and new algorithm to convert the signal to a different format with a bit rate of 2048 (16 times DSD128).”
Why do you prefer DSD processing in your DAC designs?
“Because DSD is single bit it inherently avoids all non-linearity distortions that multibit converters have. Most of the challenges in a single bit converter are on the digital side where you can use virtually unlimited, programmable and mostly very predictable resources to tackle the job. The signal in our converters right before the actual conversion to analog is so close to being analog already, that the conversion is no challenge at all with no exotic components. That makes the system performance very consistent and predictable. Exactly the reason why SACD was launched 20 years ago
phantom_av I moved on to Playback Design And have their Dream DAC and i can say for sure i love this dac more than the MSB DAC I had at that time fully loaded for 80K USD.
The Playback Design Dream DAC just sounded more Musical and less Fatiguing over a 5-6 hour session. 20 years now buying and selling DACs, I can honestly Say The Dream DAC from Playback Design has been the only DAC that has actually make me lose track of time constantly when playing music. There is no doubt about this no level of fatigue, an emotionally involving session where time is lost.
From Mono & Stereo review , I had no idea this was a discrete R2R Ladder dac also.
I’m a big fan of ladder-based DACs, MPD-8 belongs to the category, that I have quite a problem to define precisely, but in no way, I can object the Dream DAC fantastic performance. It clearly proves the point that when the technology is properly implemented at the end of the day what matters is know how.
MPD-8 DAC is a new DAC architecture and is based on Playback Designs’ well proven discrete converter design
I sold my 80K MSB DAC to someone in the USA Few Years Back this is when i was in Jakarta Indonesia., I can’t remember who....It was the top of the line dac with upgrades from the factory. Obviously, it was sold for much less and incurred a heavy loss.
I moved on to Playback Design And have their Dream DAC and i can say for sure i love this dac more than the MSB DAC I had at that time fully loaded for 80K USD.
The Playback Design Dream DAC just sounded more Musical and less Fatiguing over a 5-6 hour session. 20 years now buying and selling DACs, I can honestly Say The Dream DAC from Playback Design has been the only DAC that has actually make me lose track of time constantly when playing music. There is no doubt about this no level of fatigue, an emotionally involving session where time is lost.
MSB to my ear is better than DCS for sure.
DCS may give people the statue edge and the wow factor, but i have found them to be over clinical and cold.
Asian buyers love the prestige of owning a DCS DAC. Their feel it provides an extension to their Di*k
When it comes to Real Musical playback from a Digital Playback System I rate it as the following:
@david_tenStill unable to have the SD3100 HV accept Tidal Direct via the CAT7 cable from the router. The Tidal's App only allow selection of 1)iPad 2)Airplay & Bluetooth 3) KD-49X8300C (TV Chromecast) accept the SD3100 HV. Only able to run Tidal with the T + A MusicNavigator which is slow and not so user friendly as the Tidal's App. Any other pointers that I can check and configure to link the Tidal' App to the SD3100 HV. Thanks
@khiak If you haven't already done so, you will need to review the 'Network Configuration' section of the manual and go through the setup protocols, per your needs. Following this, refer to the 'Operating Music Services' section of the manual.
@david_ten I received delivery of the SD3100 HV yesterday. The dealer tried to setup the SD3100 HV with the Tidal apps but fail to do so. He told me to used the Tidal in the T + A apps with is very slow and not user friendly. Kindly teach me step by step to setup the SD3100 with the Tidal apps many thanks for your help.
It is nice to know that other people are realizing we really know our stuff concerning high end digital.
We have been extolling the audibile improvements of a high end server for many years now. The sound quality of each improvement, Zenith, Zenith + Phonix, and then Statment are audible.
At this time we have three referenence servers at our shop: the Baetis Reference, the Laufer Technik Memory Player and the Innous products.
It is quite remarkable that all three devices do indeed sound different.
We are still on the look out for a new server line that can do DSD 1024 for use with our T+A SDV 3100.
For the Statement users replacing the stock umbilicals with custom ones made by the Chord company we are a dealer for these, also makes a noticable improvement in the sound of the Statment.
Also Critical Mass Center Stage footers produce another very audibile jump in performance.
Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ T+A, Innous, Chord, Crtitical Mass, dealers
You listed a few SOTA servers in there, which are all top of the line best there is!
IMO, part of the digital chain is server, then streamer, right before DAC. Obviously, if the DAC has a built in network bridge (LAN), that IS your streamer, so you only have to worry about the server.
Further, and of course IMHO, you should try a top class server/ streamer combo, feeding your SDV 3100 via its USB input. And with the new Innuos PhoenixUSB reclocker (albeit more than a reclocker), there has never been a better time. After I had the PhoenixUSB in my chain for a few days, downstream of my ZENith MK3, I sold them both! Now you may wonder why....
The PhoenixUSB was so good, and so effective, that I went ahead and got myself an Innuos Statement!
One more observation from my own experience at my system: adding a PhoenixUSB to my. ZENith MK3, made a substantially more positive impact relative to replacing the ZENith MK3 / PhoenixUSB combo with the Statement. However, I do NOT regret doing this. An improvement, small or big, is still an improvement
@audiotroy Thanks for the info SD capability. As I am new in streaming, I should just slowly progress up the streaming food chains and hopefully in the near future to listen to the DSD1024,
@audiotroy Valid points. I am aware of the stated 'superiority' of the USB input over the LAN input.
However, @khiak is in the beginning stages with respect to streaming. Therefore, WiFi / LAN for Tidal makes sense as a starting point (for him). I'm sure, as he develops his familiarity, comfort level, knowledge and understanding of streaming he will move in directions that include Roon as well as possibly choosing USB.
In my case, when I conducted the comparisons with my former chain, the LAN input was superior to the USB. So, for now, I am LAN in direct from my server (dual / bridged LAN).
I have servers coming in for evaluation so I can tease out which input I end up choosing and whether I can live with a pure server option OR I need to go with a Server/Renderer ala Innuos / Wolf Audio / Pink Faun / Taiko.
Guys you haven’t scratched the surface of the T+A SDV 3100 true performance. We have compared the built in streamer vs USB via the Innous Statement and the USB sounds way better as well as allowing full high resolution digital signals. The Innous will allow up to DSD 128 with other servers the Dac can actually process DSD 1024 natively which no other dac on the planet can do!
There was a European review which they used a high end server running HQ player which allowed the reviewer to actually hear DSD 1024 which was a mind blowing experience. We will be upgrading our Laufer Technik Memory Player to allow for this, we will also be searching the market to find a high end server that can run fast enough to do this as well.
Also the Critical Mass Centerstage footers will also elevate the performance even further.
Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ T+A and Innous dealers
@david_ten many thanks for your recommendations. Shall keep to Tidal. Is the Tidal app more user friendly than the Tidal in the T + A Control App.? By the way I bought the SD as I have a preamp.
@khiak First, congratulations on your T+A SDV 3100 HV.
Since you are "new [to] streaming" ... as a starting point I recommend going with Tidal first. That is Tidal direct, versus going through Roon.
The SDV can accept Tidal Direct wireless or via your CAT7 cable from your router. You can control Tidal via your iPadPro (using Tidal's App) OR directly via the T+A Control App which offers Tidal, qobuz, Deezer, control.
Just like OP, I was looking for a streamer/DAC. I have been following this tread and learn a lot on the ongoing discussions. Based on @audiotroy recommendation to OP on the T + A SDV3100 HV, I bought the SD3100 HV and expected delivery next week. I am brand new in streaming and need help on the best way to setup the system. I have a 80 feet CAT7 cable from the router to my music room. I want to use Roon and Tidal. I have a 6 years old Macbook Pro and a iPad Pro.
@djones51It is some effort to design audio equipment on the first place, and the product is made as an island. There. The specs are published as if the device wasn't connected to anything other than a power supply.
When the device is connected to another device the abstract world of the original device no longer exists, it's part of a system, connected to noise makers left and right on just about an infinite scale of interfaces.
How the device now sounds can be totally different to what the designer had intended and blame for that is directed at the wrong component.
DACs are so vulnerable, since the ultimate output is the translation of the source and it's noise from power supplies, processors, cabling, the list goes on. The digital chain is far too long and allows interference to readily transmit.
One user may praise the DAC while another is ready to throw it against a wall. I went through a similar process with the Curious cable. It was a disaster in my system, but others were fine.
I wouldn’t pay a dime for the streaming function. In my case, my DAC is hooked to Volumio / Raspberry Pi. The web interface is well done. Under the hood, you have the standard MPD (Music Player Deamon) that you can control with any MPD client, be it on you cell phone or PC. All my music is FLAC based. I have a 4TB hard drive hooked to the Raspberry via USB and an NFS mounted drive to one of my file servers.
For budget (~ 1000$), i like the Rega DAC-R.
I listened to many DACs, i loved the Ayre QB-9 hooked to Krell KSA-100s, KRC-3 Preamp and Dynaudio Contour S 1.4. There are used QB9 to sell, they are usually bargain for what they offer. I don’t know about the new Ayre models. The best DAC i heard was the Meitner MA-1.
I guess engineers that design and build DACs, amplifiers, preamps, streamers, CD players, etc... never considered RF, EMI and other causes of distortion or interference that could pose problems they all assumed we would buy isolation boxes, rewire our homes, hook everything to batteries? I guess I must be lucky I have a modest system don't employ any of these things and somehow manage to stream and get at least to me excellent results. I also get great results from my CD player. Of course I keep any computers, routers, switches, NAS in a different room pretty good distance away.
AtDavid (aka headaudio123 now, and a bunch of other aliases earlier): thank God we have you, your Majesty
And of course, nobody can pleasure you #measurementmorons. You ask for measurements, then when they are given to you, you spit things from your venomous mouth like it’s beyond humans hearing thresholds, test were not done right, controlled listening test with a certified panel of experts, blah, blah, blah
Reading some of these comments relative to streaming makes one's head spin. Do you actually sit down and listen to music or just worry about all of this technical stuff. Glad I still spin cds.
To reinforce what Cleeds shared above... IF others are taking away a similar message to @facten 's post:
Streaming is straightforward and easy enough. As an example, no issues with my 100% streaming system. Music is on 12 to 14 hours a day. No hiccups.
Reading some of these comments relative to streaming makes one’s head spin. Do you actually sit down and listen to music or just worry about all of this technical stuff. Glad I still spin cds.
Streaming is not nearly as flawed and complicated as some here would suggest. Consider that one of the contributors is trying to define a "problem" for which he sells a special "solution."
Reading some of these comments relative to streaming makes one's head spin. Do you actually sit down and listen to music or just worry about all of this technical stuff. Glad I still spin cds.
Heaudio123 It's worse than you just galvanic conduction of RF. Even with optical from server to DAC, you can tweak the server to change the sound. Why? Because the RF conducts along the metal AC power cord to the wall and to the household grid. You then have a room sized mesh of metal to contend with. Also the phenomenon plainly affects DACs across open air. If I have a RF analyzer at the output of a DAC and just power on a disconnected NUC 15' away,I can see the MHz,GHz noise that varies as the NUC is doing it's thing. So ...distance battery power and optical are the factors to focus on. And as you say,lower power helps and your mention of a Faraday cage is on the right track to an objective solution.
And despite the resistance, ll keep working to break the spell that so many are under.
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