ufguy73. Did you ever get to audition a Bartok?!
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good list. would love to see a list of best dacs in the 10-15k range |
ditto on aurender. great products all around. i’d also look to mate it with perhaps a dcs bartok. you’ll be comfortable knowing that you’re in the top end of digital. to exceed this from a sound standpoint i think a lot more money would need to be spent to maybe pick up a 5-10% improvement. imo |
rgmd11.. in what manner did you compare the Bartok to the T&A? For instance did you use a good preamp with the Bartok? Just curious. |
rgmd11... if the t&a unit has an analog preamp whereas the dcs was used directly with its digital volume control that would explain the difference in sq quite well. regardless of what dcs says their dacs sound better with a great preamp. i’ve had a rossini and greatly preferred using it with a good preamp. i wish it wasn’t so. imo
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DCS I’ve heard lately would not be called uninvolving. They just do great digital. Obviously opinions vary. I found the Rossini to be extremely involving and quite the opposite of sterile. That’s an old hit that’s been around a long time. Same for ML as dark and Krell as bright. Bias never goes away in audio. |
audiotroy do you sell dcs ? |
A Rossini and I expect a Bartok are great digital front ends like a great turntable would be. Any sonic issue will be found elsewhere. IMHO |
The Rossini is $11000 less and has(supposedly) a very well engineered digital volume control that DCS strongly prefers to using a preamp. Of course if the Rossini clock is added the gap narrows. One thing to consider. The Rossini will retain its value very well whereas I don’t think that can be said of the T&A. I’m sure it’s a great company but I don’t believe that this is disputable. You have to be somewhat prudent given the retail prices of the two units. IMO only.
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i’ve done great on usaudiomart for expensive highly desirable gear. the key is to look everyday and jump on the unit without too much haggling if you really want the piece. the gear like a rossini will most likely sell in a day. this site(audiogon) is good but way too expensive on high dollar gear. just my opinion.
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trust me. if you have the right unit it will have no problem being sold. i’ve marketed dartzeel, luxman and agostino with ease. also dcs. i use both sites but have been astonished at the quality of buyers on usaudiomart. they are there and they will find you.
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audiotroy here is how i feel about you not that it matters. your responses are highly intelligent and reasoned. you also sound like a great guy. my only comment is neutral in that you, as does everyone, have a bias towards what you sell. If you didn’t have any bias you would be poorly representing your products. frankly i commend you for never getting in the muck. IMO
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i left out dacs. there are many out there that i don’t know about but when i had a mytek manhattan 2 i thought it superior to the bricasti m1 which i also owned. the mytek was by no means a budget product in terms of performance and build quality. there are many other new and used dacs available for under10k. the law of diminishing returns certainly appears in digital.
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i’m not up to date with the type of systems under discussion here as i like things more simple. i think the aurender acs10 with a good dac might give you everything you want bundled in a refined package. you can stream and rip cds at a very high level. i am a fan of aurender. it’s worth taking a look at.
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ufguy73.. i would not expect Lumin to remotely have the same resale as DCS. the reason in my opinion is that DCS has superior brand recognition and a small dealer network keeping discounts tighter than most. also they follow through on significant updates keeping their models long lived..will admit that i don’t know anything about lumin. i’m sure it’s good. IMO
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correction: the acs 10 starts at $5600
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ufguy73...just curious but when you started this thread were you looking for 35k type products?
for a ‘retail’ price of $18000 you could put an aurender acs10 with a bartok dac and have a digital front end that burns and streams with great operating software. as a side benefit both units exude quality and would be a joy to use. another important aspect is that the two units have outstanding resale value but i don’t think you’d be selling them anytime soon. you can squeeze perhaps another 5-10% in sq by spending a lot more but only if you have an uber overall system. i also feel that very good digital is no longer hard to find and 13-15k(dcs) isn’t necessary for 95% of audiophiles. at $4500, unless it’s gone up, the acs10 is a true high end bargain. IMO
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audiotroy... unless i’ve missed something i’m pretty sure that the op is not looking for uber gear but rather that which he can afford. i haven’t read all of the thread but was he planning to sell his mac gear? without knowing what he has does he have the pre/amp/speakers/cable to
warrant an extremely large digital purchase. maybe ya’ll have been considering moderately priced gear. i don’t think it wise to spend 30k+on any unit unless you keep it a VERY long time and can absolutely afford it and understand that you’ll get hammered upon resale.
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qobuz is awesome btw and easy to use. i’ve had tidal and thought it not so good after trying qobuz. all audiophiles should at least give it trial. some of the hi rez titles leave little to be desired. i never got on with mqa. ymmv
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Kren0006 is spot on. If you have what we used to call a ‘colored’ front end you will end up trying to return to neutral at some point which becomes a slippery slope. Do you then buy a brighter than neutral amp or cables? The very best components should absolutely be neutral and rich in detail. ‘warm’ generally means rolled off or soft etc. Let the source material dictate the neutrality. What to do with a ‘warm’ recording played back on a ‘warm’ system? boring, which is the last thing you want. IMO only
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I have to agree with lalitk. I didn’t want to bring up the MAC thing either but it looms large in this decision.
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djones51 has sound advice. that extra 5-10%can come at a very high cost. fwiw there is one thing that i feel strongly about. auditioning in another room with a different system won’t tell you very much about how something will sound in your home. never forget that you’re also listening to the room. |
The thing to consider with DCS is whether you’d also get the Rossini clock. If psychologically you’d never be happy sans clock then that 7.5k has to be considered in the total cost. I’m personally conflicted on the real benefit of the clock. DCS naturally advocates the clock but I definitely don’t believe that a Bartok won’t sound great without one. It would sort of destroy the ‘budget’ nature of the Bartok. ymmv
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i actually do know where you are coming from. if you make the jump to a rossini then you’re going to want the clock at some point. i think of the Bartok as being so good on its own for its ‘budget’ price that you won’t worry so much about passing on a rossini and clock for $31000. ja blindfold comparison would be highly interesting. the reviews on the bartok seem to indicate that it could be the end of the road for most audiophiles.
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ufguy73...fwiw i searched for all reviews of the bartok and can’t remember a product receiving such universal praise. i’m getting one for sure.
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you’ll be very happy w the bartok as will I.
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ufguy73...The Bartok(13k) and Rossini(24k)are absolutely cut from the same cloth but with a 10.5 price difference. Unless side by side in the exact same system I doubt that the improvement would be of the scale to spend that kind of extra cash. That said, as a typical audiophile I’d purchase the Rossini + clock(7.5k) if money was of NO consequence which it rarely is. I would be spending 18k more. I don’t think that I would have made a decision that would greatly enhance my musical experience. If I put 18k towards loudspeakers or a turntable I’d be making a fundamental change. IMO
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audiotroy...i laud you as a very informed dealer. i really do. i also have no reason to question what you say. in the end the customer decides after learning and hearing the product. it is my hope that you don’t demean customers that don’t come to the same conclusion. it happens a lot but is a poor method of selling products. the most enjoyable job i ever had was selling SAE (when it worked) and JBL when i was in college a long time ago.
on another topic i find RH to not be credible. how many times has he cited a new ‘reference’? Of course it’s not just him. On a short list of honest reviewers I kind of like mike fremer. he seems straight.
i have zero at stake in the dac sweepstakes. i just think the bartok should be on everyone’s list to consider given its price vs the uber gear cost. i’ve never heard a bartok and it wouldn’t matter as one has to listen in home to know what it really sounds like. i know the rossini well and do expect that the bartok is in the ballpark which would be a very good thing.
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bo... i don’t think you’d be much fun to work with. too serious and verbose concerning audio. should be fun! imo
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bo1972...you are unbearably arrogant for no discernible reason. humility is something you might try if you want people to listen to you.
i cannot imagine a worse experience than auditioning gear with you.
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how would anyone know that bo’s version of the ‘truth’ musically is the same as mine or others? another thing about his soundstaging comments. I have no studio recording experience but how does one create a soundstage from a studio recording? I can’t figure that out. good is just good and most of us know it when we hear it.. doesn’t require a sermon to understand. fwiw
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