Charles1 dad, When you play at this level all of these dacs are superb it will come down to features, philosophy, and sonic profile. We have chosen the T+A SDV 3100 as our reference dac for a number of reasons: 1: T+A is the largest high end electronics manufacturer in Europe with an engineering staff of 14 including 2 PHD for a total staff of 110. The ensures the companies long term stablity as well as their ability to keep pushing the art of technlogy further. 2: The company is a pioneer in creating all their own technologies which include: HV circuitry designed to emulate the sonic qualities of vacumme tubes by employing High Voltage rails and running transistors at their most linear operating state Native rate high speed USB DSD 1024 interface this dac is the only dac currently on the market which can input native DSD 1024, this required an ultra high speed bus, and proprietary chips and software to enable the dac to have this rate of througput, other dacs will internally upsample to DSD 1024, Meitner, PS Audio, IFI but none of these dacs nor does EMM, DCS, or Esoteric have the speed to input a native DSD 1024 data rate. Proprietary DSD engine using filters and technlogy developed entirely in house. 2: Feature set: The SDV 3100 can be purchased as either a conventional dac or as a preamplifier dac, the preamp stage is the same stage as the companies reference preamplifier which itself sells for $18k the preamp has both an RCA and XLR input. This means that you are effectively getting a world class preamplifier for basically for free. Built in streamer Every kind of digital input: XLR, RCA, Toslink, HDMI, Two analog inputs for the preamp version Built in FM radio Built in Blue Tooth. Fantastic T+A Control App 3: Superb construction quality, all aluminum chassis, separately shielded design separating dac boards, and analog stages from the power supplies, which are also separated into analog and digital supplies which are also in separately shielded enclosures. 4: OTA software upgrades 5: Superb Headphone amplifier stage We have sold DCS and compared some of DCS last generation products to what we have so we are familiar with them. Sure DCS has upsampling in a separate device, as well as a clock, we feel that the T+A SD dac can compete with the best in the world from DCS and MSB yet do so for 1/2 to 1/3 of what those companies charge for a comparably specified product. The T+A sounds absolutely amazing at DSD 512 we have run that test vs a few other servers, as the Innous doesnt’ run that fast. When you add up the sound quality, feature set, and price, the T+A is one of the best overall front ends you can purchase today. If you consider that the SDV version comes with a built in reference preamplifier and all you need is an amplifier you have a truly magnificent system with two to three boxes. A great review from Stero Magazine from Gemany explains what happens when you use an ultra high speed computer to run HQ player and upconvert a file to DSD 1024 from PCM: https://stereo-magazine.com/review/t-a-pdt-3100-hv-t-a-sdv-3100-hv-review
We used the diverse and complex software for Windows, Linux or MacOS, which insiders consider the most competent and most convincing algorithms in the field, on a high-performance PC with six cores plus a powerful CUDA graphics card in a closed network with gigahertz router, as it requires extreme computing power. The SDV3100HV‘s „Network Audio“ function is designed for such applications. But can it really be used to such an extent as the manufacturer promises? And is that even sensible? As a test file we used the song „IGY“ from Donald Fagen‘s top album „The Nightfly“ in PCM format with 24 Bit/48 Kilohertz. The track already sounded clean, detailed and balanced as usual. Now we increased the sampling rates in PCM format up to a dizzying 768 kHz, 16 times the original frequency. And in fact, with every step the resolution increased, less digital artifacts seemed to be in play, which was connected with the kind of algorithms used for upsampling, as well as with the digital filtering. The real surprise happened, however, when we had the HQPlayer convert the PCM title into DSD1024 with 49.15 megahertz bandwidth. Suddenly „IGY“ showed a floating lightness and unadulterated naturalness, which was clearly above the best PCM results and almost took our breath away. We made further checks, for example with the 24 bit/192 kHz PCM file of the beguiling choir piece „Var nära mig“. Again, the maximum DSD resolution, at which the bitstream is extremely close to an analog waveform, was always advantageous because it was more musical and more authentic. The performance of the DSD512 already lost some of its value. The SDV3100HV had thus passed one of its most important tests and proved its future viability and outstanding sound quality – for everything that is and will be.
The take away is that all of this technology ensures that the end user can continue to explore the world of high resolution digital in any format and from any source that they wish.
The funding for some of these advancements was actually paid for by the Germany gov't to enable T+A to pour considerable resources into the design and execuation pushing forward digital technlogy.
Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ T+A dealers |
No one is recording that high native DSD, maybe 2X if your lucky. It also does not have Ethernet. |
jwm913 posts02-11-2020 6:59pmIt also does not have Ethernet.
What?! Are you talking about T+A SDV 3100 HV? It has Ethernet input. It's called "streaming DAC" --- it's right there in the name of the product |
Just to have some other options, you could try the Bacch SP and see if you like it. It actually changes the sound to get a better stereo image. I attended a demo and it is a bit like magic. The Bacch SP ADIO has a dac and you can of course turn off the stereo effect.
https://www.theoretica.us/bacch-sp.html
There have been very few mentions of TotalDac here but they have some great dacs and usually gets very good reviews. I have only heard them at audio shows but they sounded great there. |
Not sure I understand the T+A SDV can be configured with the preamp or without...or that you are essentially getting a ‘free’ preamp...
does the cost not vary based on the configuration? |
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@ufguy73, A common question ... different directions are a quirk in development. Streaming / Pre / DAC is common ... Look at the description for Pre Box S2 digital. Also for another version: https://www.project-audio.com/en/product/stream-box-s2/ ... for consideration. Another example would be Hugo TT2 includes a Headphone Amp otherwise pure DAC.
In the example of T+A choose the Streaming DAC and use your existing Pre ... or T+A SDV-3100 Pre Streaming DAC for streaming ... you have to decide which sounds best to you. |
@djones51@rego
thanks guys - i was confused by the nomenclature...
but it looks like the streamer+DAC+preamp is only $2500 more than the streamer+DAC (at least according to a review)? |
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Are there any reasons why, for only 2500 more, one shouldnt go ahead and get what many seem to think is a great preamp? |
If I was spending that much not really, maybe if you already had the T+A preamp or one comparable. |
Yes that is correct, the idea on the preamp version is to simply what many people want, which is to be able to just add an amplifier.
If you have a great preamp than you can go with the dac version or how about selling your preamp and applying that money towards the SDV version with the preamp?
Either way this is one of the best and most fully featured digital front ends on the market today.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ T+A dealers |
The Rossini is $11000 less and has(supposedly) a very well engineered digital volume control that DCS strongly prefers to using a preamp. Of course if the Rossini clock is added the gap narrows. One thing to consider. The Rossini will retain its value very well whereas I don’t think that can be said of the T&A. I’m sure it’s a great company but I don’t believe that this is disputable. You have to be somewhat prudent given the retail prices of the two units. IMO only.
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Wow Dave is admitting something is better than LUMIN! This is a breakthrough! Just kidding (inside joke, he and I have squabbled about LUMIN). In all seriousness appreciate the insight.
Dave, how are the less expensive T+A streamer/dacs (if you’ve tested)?
Are they best in class for their price points? Or for now is it just the top of line one that you like best?
Also, (off topic for this thread, sorry) are T+A amps and speakers as good as their digital? |
@4425
a little off topic but because you brought up value retention/ease of resale...
what are suggested/effective outlets to sell used high end gear? i have never really had occasion to do it...i did some browsing on audigon but didn’t see a lot of these higher end DAC items and wasn’t sure if that was more attributable to not many being on the market or that they tend to get moved via other means... |
i’ve done great on usaudiomart for expensive highly desirable gear. the key is to look everyday and jump on the unit without too much haggling if you really want the piece. the gear like a rossini will most likely sell in a day. this site(audiogon) is good but way too expensive on high dollar gear. just my opinion.
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From my experience, USAM is worthless for high priced gear. Only cheaper stuff, say $2K or less. Mostly attracts lower budget folks. The big advantage is that it’s free to the seller.
IMO, Audiogon is the best place to sell high end gear. Hands down.
As an alternative, and if you don’t want to deal with the hassle of a private sale, check with the Music Room. You will likely get less than from a private sale, but the process is seamless.
@kren0006 : T+A amps are great. I own the PA 3100 HV integrated amp. If I could afford it though, I would buy the SD 3100 HV in a heartbeat |
@4425
@thyname
thanks for the secondary market thoughts!
would you expect the Lumin X2 to hold secondary value pretty well (ie like the Rossini) or not as strong (like the T+A) |
trust me. if you have the right unit it will have no problem being sold. i’ve marketed dartzeel, luxman and agostino with ease. also dcs. i use both sites but have been astonished at the quality of buyers on usaudiomart. they are there and they will find you.
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ufguy73,
I'm coming a bit late to the thread, and I see that @mikelavigne has already introduced MSB as a contender, being a very satisfied owner himself :)
I can say that, having supported MSB for many years, first as an owner and then as a dealer, that it is indeed on a league of their own.
Matter of fact, it's really hard for me to go back to a "chip DAC" (delta-sigma) now. As a dealer, I get to hear most of the products out there, and the naturalness of the ladder DAC process is something, I've found out, that is hard for me to live without. Due to that, even our other line of DACs also employ discrete ladder DACs (Aqua, from Italy).
So, at the higher end of the DAC spectrum, I wouldn't consider anything with an off-the-shelf chip, no matter how good the project, for that product will have obvious drawbacks, mostly in how natural and realistic (ie. "analog") it'll sound.
To close, I was just reading Positive Feedback's report on the Florida show, and this is how they ended their report on the MSB room:
"Then they put on a 1964 Dean Martin track "I'm Confessin' (That I Love You)"—that absolutely sounded like Dean was in the room—the realism was uncanny."
cheers,
Alex
Alma Music and Audio
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Asulfy, actually could not disagree more. The chip or conversion method is just one aspect of what determines sound quality. We have heard superb ladder dac units and superb delta simga and other dacs which are not ladder types. The Esoteric line, the Emm Line are both superb dacs, we have had both of those lines in our shop. Wether someome prefers one of the other dacs presentation or not is a different matter. Ed Meitner is one of the world’s greatest digital designers and he does not use ladder dacs, the Esoteric Grandiso units are also considered fantastic products. We would agree with you that there can be a naturalness with a ladder based dac that can be very enticing and musical. Again we disagree with your slight on "chip based dacs not sounding or can’t sound as good, we just became Bricasti Dealers the M3, M1, M12, M21, are dacs which do use chips for both PCM and DSD decoding the new M3 sounds fantastic. Also the reference level Bricasti Dacs are also lauded for their superb sound quality. Both of our two reference dacs’s the T+A SD 3100 and the Light Harmonic Davinci, offer ladder type decoding for DSD files the question as to why those devices sound better may have more to do with listening to DSD files than it is that they are ladder based designs. In the case of the Aqua Hifi Formula a filterless ladder dac design this is a wonderful dac however it does get bested by the T+A both of these run ladder type designs however, the T+A is not using discrete resistors they are using many chip based switches which are doing the same task. So the fact that both use ladder dac’s doesn’t provide for the take away that the T+A is still a better performing product, the type of conversion method is just one part of the equation. This is a perfect example of how two dacs both using "ladder" type networks to drive their voltages sound totally different. As per MSB they do make an excellent product and we have heard their gear at shows, at Axpona Alon Wolf of Magico was using CH Precision and the uber expensive MSB dac along with either the M2 or M6 the sound was insanely mediocre, just because one critic liked a product or mentioned the systems realisim can have more to do if that critic is biased towards that systems sound or his or her biases. Most of the raves at show reports are usually pretty wrong and we constantly disagree with many of the well received rooms at these shows, at Axpona 99.9 percent of the systems sounded pretty poor considering the huge costs involved in many of the shows trophy setups. Our best at show Axpona 2019 included a Wilson room running a full DCS stack, the Vimberg Room running Metranome digital and a few others, the Tidal room sounded very good and they were using a Tidal dac card built into their preamp. Our take away is that all of these dacs are excellent, we have chosen T+A because we have found that its unique feature set and design heritage enable it to easily compete with a $90k DCS or MSB product yet sells for 1/3 the price of those, it all comes down to engineering and resources T+A has 12 full time engineers, which include two enginers with PHD, and the company received a grant from the German goverment to help offset the huge costs to deliver this state of the art dac, which include proprietary input technology that allows for native DSD 1024 which no other dac on the market can process or take in. As we mentioned before other companies will double DSD 512 internally through a reprocessing algorithm, only T+A can handle that high of a data rate from the beginning without having to reprocess that data to accheive a similar result, how big is MSB again? How many engineers do they have? Just because you over build something with more massive external power supplies and more expensive femto clocks and run up your price tag, doesn’t mean your product will necessarily sound the better than one that does not. We would welcome the comparison, Robert Harly did say that the SD 3100 playing DSD was his new benchmark, funny don’t you think Mr. Harley has heard and played with both the DCS and MSB gear? https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/theory-application-elektroakustik-sdv-3100-hv-dacpreamplif...
Conclusion
Beautifully built, highly capable, feature-laden, and a joy to use, T+A’s SDV 3100 HV DAC and PDT 3100 HV CD/SACD transport are at the pinnacle of digital’s ascent from the early CD players to today’s highly sophisticated machines. The vast array of formats accessible by the SDV, coupled with the superb user interface, opens up a vista of musical discoveries.
The SDV is a superb sounding component, rendering PCM with exceptional dynamic verve, tremendous bottom-end grip and definition, and fine rendering of high-frequency detail. This DAC is particularly impressive with standard-resolution files and CD—T+A’s upsampling algorithm narrows the gap between CD-quality and true high-res. With PCM sources, the SDV’s performance approaches the best DACs I’ve heard.
But with SACD, and DSD files, the SDV and PDT establish a new benchmark of performance.
If you have an SACD collection, or a library of DSD files, the SDV and PDT pair is your ticket to experiencing that music as never before. How do we get DSD through Roon or Jriver to transcode all PCM to DSD. Although these two components are the most expensive in T+A’s history, they are more than fairly priced considering their build-quality, sound-quality, and the fact that they can access virtually any digital format extant.
Alma we sell and carry more dac’s than most dealers we sell Lumin Ess Based, Aqua Ladder based, Bricasti chip based, Naim chip based, Light Harmonic Ladder and Chip based, All of these dacs’ can sound fanatastic and can sound extremely musical depending on how they are feed, the source of the data, and the type of data.
Proof postive the Lumin X1 sounds unbelievably good and to best it you have to spend to to three times the money and that is a Sabre based dac, please go find us one review on the X1 where they thought otherwise. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ T+A dealers |
audiotroy here is how i feel about you not that it matters. your responses are highly intelligent and reasoned. you also sound like a great guy. my only comment is neutral in that you, as does everyone, have a bias towards what you sell. If you didn’t have any bias you would be poorly representing your products. frankly i commend you for never getting in the muck. IMO
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ufguy73.. i would not expect Lumin to remotely have the same resale as DCS. the reason in my opinion is that DCS has superior brand recognition and a small dealer network keeping discounts tighter than most. also they follow through on significant updates keeping their models long lived..will admit that i don’t know anything about lumin. i’m sure it’s good. IMO
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Dave and Troy,
No, Harley has not heard an MSB in his system. dCS yes, MSB no. Valin did, and guess what, he has an MSB In his system now, even though he’s a hard-core vinyl guy (like I am). And neither has heard MSB’s top of the line, imagine that...
And you mentioned Esoteric. Well, their new Grandioso products are using discrete components, instead of a chip. Call me silly, but for $35k, a DAC should have more than a $20 chip at its core, and Esoteric knows that.
In the end, it’s all about the execution, as there ARE plenty of mediocre ladder DACs out there, mostly jumping on MSB’s bandwagon. While there are decent delta-sigma DACs (the best of the lot, for me, is the Linn Klimax DSM), *my opinion* is that it’s silly to spend that much money on a product with $20 parts in it, that can’t be upgraded easily. To me, D-S makes sense on the entry-level, with a nice and warm output stage, like Luxman does with their digital products.
We don’t carry a bunch of different DAC brands like you do ON PURPOSE. Of course, if we wanted, I’d have the place littered with DACs, but we chose not to. In my view, it does a disservice to the client. I have a clear preference, and we stick with it, instead of shooting in all directions to see what sticks.
cheers,
Alex
Alma Music and Audio
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I have enjoyed reading various reviews of these higher end DACs (recognizing the limitations, biases, imperfections, etc. that inherently accompany listening to someone describe what they are hearing).
To be sure, there are very positive reviews of the T+A SDV 3100. I do have a couple concerns, though:
- on one review (HiFi News) it appeared as though perhaps the takeaway of the presentation was it was not as lively, transparent, energetic (perhaps) as others:
"it rapidly became clear that what's on offer from this imposing two-box player is a sound of great substance, warmth and maturity. OK, at times it may not offer the very last word in sheer bite and impact, but there's nothing remotely mechanical or – to make a sweeping generalisation – 'digital' about the sound here..."
"More raw material, such as Atlanta Rhythm Section's live Are You Ready! set [BGO BGOCD1052], can sound a tad too polite, yet this doesn't this rob the music of its enjoyment"
"It's as future-proofed as you might hope for, and while not exactly red in tooth and claw, it transcends mere sonic fireworks by reproducing the most bombastic musical events with unmistakable style."
I realize the quotes above are all on the whole positive, however, I do also detect the potential for conclusions that the component may be overly relaxed, refined, polite, restrained, etc?
- the other concern is no MQA. I recognize why...and I recognize that MQA is not the end-all-be-all, at least right now...however, it does strike me as a consideration that one of the differentiators of the T+A is it being 'future proofed' (as much as anything in the this world can be) - and yet it does not cover one of the growing formats that several other manufacturers are going through various updates in order to support.
- lastly (and not really a 'concern' vs consideration of value), I realize the specs (outside of the MQA aspect) on the T+A is through the roof...but in practical terms what is the availability of content at those elevated resolution levels. I know that shouldn't really matter, all things being equal, because as long as its not sacrificing lower resolution quality who cares that it is capable of playing even higher...but, for example, I think I'd rather have the MQA than a capability that never gets used.
Anyway, still doing reading, etc. but these are some thoughts running through my mind on T+A.
@4425 thanks for the additional thoughts on retention of Luminary's vs DCS....confirms what my inclination has been, also.
@asiufy thanks so much for weighing in (even if late lol). I assume you have exeperience across the MSB line? Where do you think the sweetspot is in terms of really pushing into diminishing marginal returns? Are there one or two levels that represent clear/marked increases relative to a lower model that you would throw out there. My initial feeling is that maybe one break is at the Premier vs Reference (that is to say, a significant increase in performance between the two that maybe isn't quite as dramatic as Discrete to Premier or Reference to Select...though, truth is, perhaps the Reference to Select is significant...but that Select price point....breathtaking :)).
Im also curious to hear your thoughts on the relative value proposition of the Dual Powerbase vs Monos?
thanks all! |
@ufguy73,
I normally advise people on the appropriate MSB product based on their system. I think it's silly to recommend top of the line stuff if there are components in the person's system that will hold performance back, and thus not give 100% of what the MSB can do.
I believe @mikelavigne described a few posts back the difference between the models. It's not transparency per se that changes, but just how "continuous" and "realistic" (again, "analog") the DAC sounds. The power supplies help a lot in that aspect, as they add the required weight for some of the music to be truly realistic. The clock upgrades are also quite significant, in that they help with that sense of "flow".
If your system is already "up there", I'd recommend starting with a Reference DAC with clock upgrade. Then, instead of adding the two supplies for the Ref, trade up to a Select.
This is *my opinion* and *my suggestion*, it might not match other folks' or even MSB's :) That's just how I hear it and how I think the price x performance equation works.
Either way, even a Premier will sound more realistic and natural than most of the DACs out there, in my opinion. For the Premier, you do want the two small power supplies, though.
HTH :)
Alex
Alma Music and Audio
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I have pulled up a chair and am popping some popcorn, this show is about to get very interesting! |
all positive and constructive, though...
I've learned a lot about digital just on this thread, alone! Really appreciate the viewpoints and knowledge being shared.
this was my inaugural posting, here! lol |
@asiufy makes total sense and thanks for the additional input!
if I could pick your brain some more, since I particularly liked your suggestion (including upgrade path)...
if I also wanted the ability to spin discs - would you suggest adding a Reference Transport to either the Premier or Reference DAC? A Select transport, leaving one open for the matching DAC if deciding to update at a latter date?
I had also been thinking about the Esoteric K1x, primarily for the transport, and then using its DAC with outboard streamer...and later on deciding if I wanted to a standalone DAC, though I guess I would be overpaying for a DAC in the K1x that (at best) was only used for spinning if I later on had an MSB DAC...
how would you say the MSB transports (and something like Premier/Reference DAC) would compare to the K1x? |
@ufguy73,
If you do want to spin discs, you can go with either MSB transports. The ProISL interface is really fantastic. MSB themselves always display at the shows with the Transports, and the show reports are usually something like "you don't need hi-res for amazing digital".
The beauty of the MSB transports is that they can also be hooked up to a network, and work as a streamer, again via the galvanically isolated ProISL interface. Kill two birds with one stone and all that.
As the current Transports will work with all the MSB DACs, you can pick whichever one, and you'll be able to use it (and the matching ProISL module) across the entire line of DACs. So, upgrade the DAC, but keep the transport.
And I'm sorry, but even though I've heard and know well the Esoteric sound, I'd rather not comment it here.
cheers,
Alex
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T+A uses a ladder DAC which tend to not measure very well, some do not sure about this one. A lot of people like them as they lean more to the polite/ warm/ relaxed side where Delta Sigma DAC's are usually more analytical and neutral though they can be implemented more to the warm side depending on the filters. Personally I prefer the DS neutral DAC's if I want to add " warmth or coloration " I would rather do that with tubes in the pre or amp section.
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Op the T+A transport has been designed to work via its own high speed interface for use with the SDV 3100.
Robert Harley was suitably impressed by the combination stating that was the best sound he has ever gotten from an optical disc.
The SDV 3100 HV and PDT 3100 HV exemplify the astonishing transformation of the CD player into a highly sophisticated multi-format platform. In my view, there is no better way to exploit today’s vast array of options for accessing and enjoying digital music than via this T+A duo.
Howver, we would still recomend not spinning CD's at all and using a state of the art music server from Innous the Statement which or perhaps a Wolf as being an ideal pathway to experience state of the art streaming and having the ability to read and store all your CD's which is far nicer than having to go over to a wall of CD's and load a particular disc.
We are currently using the Innous Statement feeding the SDV 3100 and the sound is glorious for both streaming and for our stored CD library.
Also if you really wanted to go with a CD playback menchanisiim the T+A SDT transport is a completely built in house built and designed from scratch CD mechanism that can not be easily bettered at any price.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor T+A and Innous dealers
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For the Innuos Zenith mk3 server paired with either the Aqua Acoustic La Scala DAC or Formula xHD2.1 DAC is the combo to beat. If in NY come by for a listen.
Or the Innuos Statement serverpaired with the La Scala is well just crazy good.
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Innuos Statement or Zenith mk3 with {Phoenix re-clocker mated to a Aqua Acoustic DAC. Either the La Scala or Formula xHD2.1.
Future proof user upgradeable DACs. The Innuos servers are also upgradeable. Rollo Audio Consulting rollo14@verizon.net
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i’m not up to date with the type of systems under discussion here as i like things more simple. i think the aurender acs10 with a good dac might give you everything you want bundled in a refined package. you can stream and rip cds at a very high level. i am a fan of aurender. it’s worth taking a look at.
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4425 The Aurender that would be up to this level of system would be the W20 or the Se version.
Pipedreams the Aqua is indeed excellent we sell it, however, the Aqua with the Innous Statement vs the T+A SDV 3100 with the Statement is not comparing apples to apples.
The T+A SDV is a totally unique product that has a built in streamer, Fm tuner, headphone amp, Blue Tooth receiver, it is a true multi source product that alows access to any kind of digital source, along with a state of the art dac that can handle the highest sampling rates in the world .
The dac use a propreitary DSD engine and separate PCM engine. The Dac can also come with a world class preamplifier stage as well. In addition there are four tuneable filters and two modes of reading the data from the DSD enginer which allows a degree of customization, add to that OTA firmware upgrades.
Quite frankly there is nothing on the market quite like what the SDV 3100 offers. It is a truly all singing all dancing master of all things digital.
The Aqua dac is a very well designed and implimented ladder dac that does sound extremely good for its price point. We agree with you that the Aqua is a fantastic dac and does offer a very cool modular approach.
The difference is in subtitlties there is a great sense of palpability and a greater sense of realisim with the T+A that justifys its higher price point.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ T+A, Aqua, Innous
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No doubt the T&A is a wonderful jack of all trades and priced accordingly. We were chosen to sell the Aqua line as well. Our reasoning was price point and upgrade ability. For Preamp service we carry Lamm and Audio Hungary. We stream Radio through iPeng.
Different choices for different budgets and systems.
charlesrollo audio consulting
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No Charles it is not a matter of being a jack of all trades, the T+A offers a level of sound quality that is ahead of the Aqua and it should be considering the difference in price.
Also if you consider the extra cost of a set of interconnects and a power cord not to mention the space of a great analog preamp, the concept of an intergrated state of the art preamplifier along with the dac makes a very tempting all in one package.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ T+A, Aqua, and Innous dealers |
ufguy73...just curious but when you started this thread were you looking for 35k type products?
for a ‘retail’ price of $18000 you could put an aurender acs10 with a bartok dac and have a digital front end that burns and streams with great operating software. as a side benefit both units exude quality and would be a joy to use. another important aspect is that the two units have outstanding resale value but i don’t think you’d be selling them anytime soon. you can squeeze perhaps another 5-10% in sq by spending a lot more but only if you have an uber overall system. i also feel that very good digital is no longer hard to find and 13-15k(dcs) isn’t necessary for 95% of audiophiles. at $4500, unless it’s gone up, the acs10 is a true high end bargain. IMO
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i left out dacs. there are many out there that i don’t know about but when i had a mytek manhattan 2 i thought it superior to the bricasti m1 which i also owned. the mytek was by no means a budget product in terms of performance and build quality. there are many other new and used dacs available for under10k. the law of diminishing returns certainly appears in digital.
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correction: the acs 10 starts at $5600
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Actually 4435 we could not disagree more. There is no law of dimenishing returns in digital until you hit the higher end dacs once you cross $25-35k for a dac and a $15k for a server then you hit that wall where you have to spend a ton more money before you can really get better.
We have a ton of great digital from the Aqua Hifi Lascala, the Bricasti M3,the Lumin T2, the Lumin X1, the Naim NDX2, the T+A Dac 8 DSD, all of these represent the more value oriented mid tier dacs.
We also sell the $2k dac, Ifi, Lumin D2 the Myteks.
We also sell the higher end reference dacs the Aqua Formula, the T+A SDV 3100 and the Light Harmonic Davinci. These dacs are from $16k to $35k.
The take away is the Lumin X1 and the Formula both sound fantastic for their price points, their is an elusuive quality of palpality that the more expensive dacs do that once you hear it you know you are in a level of realism that mirros the best in vinyl.
So in our shop you can go from each price level and unfortunately the more expensive gear really does sound better, the question always is are they worth the coin?
The same question can be answered in Steaks, you can get a pretty good steak for $25.00 howerver, once you go to a world class steak house and experience a $60 steak that difference in quality is totally obvious.
In life there is good, there is good for the money, and there is the best at any price. The higher end DCS, MSB, T+A gear all fall into that best at any price, you are paying for technology and the execution of that technology.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
I have test driven roughly 13 DACs, TBH I always seem to come back the (dare I say it) Jolida (black ice audio) the tune stage is nice and full especially with bugle boy nos I run in it, I drive it with a few different amps from pair of usher R1.5s , to a pair of McIntosh MC7300s. I love it sounds good with anything I play or speakers I pair it with. |
audiotroy... unless i’ve missed something i’m pretty sure that the op is not looking for uber gear but rather that which he can afford. i haven’t read all of the thread but was he planning to sell his mac gear? without knowing what he has does he have the pre/amp/speakers/cable to
warrant an extremely large digital purchase. maybe ya’ll have been considering moderately priced gear. i don’t think it wise to spend 30k+on any unit unless you keep it a VERY long time and can absolutely afford it and understand that you’ll get hammered upon resale.
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@asiufy @audiotroy
I would be curious what 'level' of DAC would you say is commensurate with my general Mcintosh system of c1100/611 and B&W 800 d3 speakers?
is the MSB line/T+A 3100 overkill? is it the next step up that would be lost in my current system, above?
@4425
originally, I was sort of looking at the Esoteric K1 transport and had started learning more about DCS and the reputation of their DACs and so my original question was really in relation to those two, which generally had a price point around 20-35k, I guess.
But I was not as familiar with other brands like T+A, MSB, etc - or necessarily well versed on various price vs return equations etc...so, its all good I guess! lol |
@ufguy73,
I believe a Premier with 2 Discrete Power supplies will be suitable for your system. Add an MSB Reference Transport, if you're that inclined to play discs, or a Innuos Zenith mk3 if you prefer to stream.
If you still have any budget left, I'd add the $5000 Femto 93 clock upgrade for the MSB.
HTH,
Alex
Alma Music and Audio
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ufguy73 - - the other concern is no MQA. I recognize why...and I recognize that MQA is not the end-all-be-all, at least right now...however, it does strike me as a consideration that one of the differentiators of the T+A is it being 'future proofed' (as much as anything in the this world can be) - and yet it does not cover one of the growing formats that several other manufacturers are going through various updates in order to support.
I e-mailed T+A this week about MQA and this was their reply: "thank you for your feedback! I'm pleased that you are very satisfied with your SDV3100HV! There are plans to support the audio format MQA in the long term. But if or when we will be able to realize an update for SDV3100HV, I cannot answer you. I wish you much joy with your SDV3100HV! All the best! T+A elektroakustik GmbH & Co. KG Bernd Mölling Planckstr. 9-11 DE 32052 Herford" So hopefully this will be soon coming, personally I find MQA on certain material through Tidal has a good incremental addition in SQ.... Regards RGMD11 |
OP has Mc amp and preamp. Given that, why would he/she even think about pairing it with a warm sounding dac?? I get it that also BW 800s, but I’d still think would want to swing for neutral or slightly analytical.
dcs or msb or esoteric sounds like a better synergistic compatible if OP intends to stick with Mc that he/she already has. Just my opinion based on reputations. I’ll be first to admit I have not heard (in my system) any of these $20k+ digital wonders being discussed.
This thread is really good btw. Nice job OP kicking it off and responding to all the suggestions and refining your search as more info presented. Can’t wait for the auditions and demos and head2heads if they happen.
Cables should not be the answer to mismatched components at this point in game (bc still free to purchase nicely compatible digital piece to go with what he/she already has). OP better off getting best synergistic match with the digital purchase with his existing kit and then using cables to tweak that last 1-2%.
Lack of MQA support on T+A would be dealbreaker for me. |
“I would be curious what ’level’ of DAC would you say is commensurate with my general Mcintosh system of c1100/611 and B&W 800 d3 speakers? is the MSB line/T+A 3100 overkill? is it the next step up that would be lost in my current system, above?” @ufguy73, You probably didn’t expect seeking advise on DAC/Streamer would turn out to be quite a rigamarole. It’s an important decision given rest of your system and first foray into digital streaming. Speaking about your system, it’s a great ensemble of gear but not without its limitations. Don’t get me wrong when I say that, for many it’s still a dream system to own all out McIntosh /B&W gear. I have gone through few iterations of B&W, Classe and McIntosh in recent years. It’s a classic pairing....B&W and McIntosh. I blame the dealers who weren’t adventurous enough to showcase B&W’s with anything else but Classe (under B&W group) and McIntosh. And for last couple of years, consumers minds are being re-tuned by mega-dealers to show how well McIntosh / ARC gear pairs with Sonus Faber speakers. Sorry for the rant but you will see ‘why’ in next couple of paragraphs. If you plan to keep McIntosh C1100/611, I would say listen to Mytek Manhattan II with optional network card or DCS Bartok in your system. You will be more than pleased what these one box components offers in terms of performance and simplicity. I think someone mentioned Bricasti M21, that would be a good choice too. To answer your query honestly, both MSB and T+A 3100 would be a overkill with MC611 in your system. It is the weakest link in your system. I have had C1100/MC601 with B&W 800D2 and as much I loved and enjoyed C1100, the MC601 turned out to be nothing more than pretty face and very expensive paper weights. You may find this hard to believe, but your B&W 800’s are best driven by Class D amps with at least 500W/8ohms specs. Should you choose to bring T+A SDV 3100 HV into your system, that should eliminate the need for C1100. You may not be ready to part ways with C1100 yet but keeping it with SDV3100 would be a waste of money. As far as amps goes, if Class D doesn’t float your boat; the newer Classe Delta amps will wake up your B&W like no other. https://www.classeaudio.comTough road ahead, but you will figure out which way to go only by listening to all the aforementioned recommendations in your system. Good luck! |
