Higher End DACs

ufguy73...The Bartok(13k) and Rossini(24k)are absolutely cut from the same cloth but with a 10.5 price difference. Unless side by side in the exact same system I doubt that the improvement would be of the scale to spend that kind of extra cash. That said, as a typical audiophile I’d purchase the Rossini + clock(7.5k) if money was of NO consequence which it rarely is. I would be spending 18k more. I don’t think that I would have made a decision that would greatly enhance my musical experience. If I put 18k towards loudspeakers or a turntable I’d be making a fundamental change. IMO

Looking at what measurements I can find on the Bartok and Rossini I would be surprised if there would be very many people over 10 year olds who could tell a difference if they were blindfolded. I know I couldn't even sighted with my 63 year old ears. 

4425 we loved your statement,  wiw i searched for all reviews of the bartok and can’t remember a product receiving such universal praise. i’m getting one for sure.

Please look at the Lumin X1 which has received more rave reviews than almost any digital product in its price point, in general the Lumin products are usually rated as the go to product for their price point. 

As well as one of the forum posts that the reviewer dramatically prefered the X1 over the Bartok.

We are not saying that the Bartok isn't an excellent product it is but the Lumin is a choice that suits many people very well from a company that was considered the first major streaming dac in the industry.

As per your comment that the Bartok will be hard to tell the difference between the more expensive  DCS setups again not going to be true.

When a company any company builds a more expensive product you can beat your socks that it will dramatically outperform the lesser one, and specs don't tell this.

Georgehifi, we send out any digital product that a potential client would want to audition at no cost other than the shipping costs and of course the prospective client must pay in full for it. MSB is assisting their dealers who many of them are not going to be able to demo many of their line due to their very high cost for their top of the line fully optioned models.

The fact that Robert Harly who has heard every major digital front end has stated the The T+A SD 3100 is his new benchmark should say a lot. 

As we mentioned before just because a product is heinously expensive doesnt' mean that it will perform better than a lesser one.

In the case of T+A there is no digital company in the world right now that has applied such advanced technology to their dacs, that is not DCS or Esoteric nor Emm Labs. 

The ability to natively process DSD 1024 means you have to have a very high speed data throughput, it took a grant from the German goverment to enable the research to lead to this products creation. 

Native DSD 1024 means that the dac can receive an extrmely high data rate from the way the data enters the dac to the point that is is read.

Other dacs process a DSD 512 data stream and then reprocess that, which is not the same thing as being able to read and process twice the data rate at twice the speed initially, which requires much greater engineering to develop your own input receiver, chips and software and a data buss than can move data at that high a speed.

If you want the most advanced digital product in the market currently the T+A is the one to beat. 

4425 we have compared the Lumin to the T+A and the T+A is better the price difference is $20k so yes it should be the point being made is that there are fantastic digital products for the money that come very close to the best and there are others that are the best if you have a good enough system, the hearing acuity, and the money you can get results that are indeed better, in audio as with anything else is that price difference worth it to the prosepective client?

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Lumin, and T+A dealers

@audiotroy

I don’t mean this as argumentative as it may come across...

you said: "If you want the most advanced digital product in the market currently the T+A is the one to beat."

and yet it doesn’t have MQA ability - again, I am sure many would argue that the SQ, intent/purpose, principle of MQA is debatable.

the reality is, however, that there is a material amount of content out there in that form and a meaningful number of DAC companies that are supporting the format in their devices.

How can any supporter claim a component is the most ’advanced’ and not support a format that many other lesser, similarly, and higher priced devices do support?

Again, interested to hear your thoughts on how you reconcile that issue...I do find the T+A intriguing - but it is at a fairly high price point and if its differentiator is its advanced capabilities this omission seems to directly undercut at least part of its core value proposition?

also, in regard to your final paragraph...I think at least part of the discussion has shifted to the synergy/match of these DACs in my own system - and so I would be curious to know if the T+A is not just 'better' on paper and/or in a top of the line system....but whether its 'better' in context of my system components/speakers.

E-mail from T+A last week:

thank you for your feedback! I'm pleased that you are very satisfied with your SDV3100HV!

There are plans to support the audio format MQA in the long term. But if or when we will be able to realize an update for SDV3100HV, I cannot answer you.

I wish you much joy with your SDV3100HV!

All the best!


T+A elektroakustik GmbH & Co. KG
Bernd Mölling
Planckstr. 9-11
DE 32052 Herford

audiotroy...i laud you as a very informed dealer. i really do. i also have no reason to question what you say. in the end the customer decides after learning and hearing the product. it is my hope that you don’t demean customers that don’t come to the same conclusion. it happens a lot but is a poor method of selling products. the most enjoyable job i ever had was selling SAE (when it worked) and JBL when i was in college a long time ago.
on another topic i find RH to not be credible. how many times has he cited a new ‘reference’? Of course it’s not just him. On a short list of honest reviewers I kind of like mike fremer. he seems straight.
i have zero at stake in the dac sweepstakes. i just think the bartok should be on everyone’s list to consider given its price vs the uber gear cost. i’ve never heard a bartok and it wouldn’t matter as one has to listen in home to know what it really sounds like. i know the rossini well and do expect that the bartok is in the ballpark which would be a very good thing.

I will add that over the past 3 or 4 years I had various setups including Lumin, Aurender, Hegel H360, Gryphon Diablo and a Accuphase E-470, Naim Nova, all with DAC’s and whilst very good to extremely good, the T+A just totally walks all over them for every Audiophile platitude you may care to think of, it is just everything that I have been striving for......at long last I am extremely happy....

Let me address a few wrong facts mentioned here...
The first major streaming DAC was not Lumin, but it was the company they copied, Linn. Linn was the first high-end audio manufacturer to ditch CD players altogether and invest in the streaming DAC category. Lumin started their company by completely copying the Linn Klimax. Of course, they've moved on from there, with their own designs, they might sound even better than Linn's, but the fact remains that Linn is the original innovator, not Lumin.
Then, MQA. Fact is, MSB was one of the very first companies to implement MQA. Why? Because it's so damn easy for them. The whole DAC is programmable via software, and since MSB controls the whole stack (no OEM stuff there), all they had to do was write code (or incorporate MQA's) and deploy a new firmware upgrade. The new hardware for USB was required only because MQA requires it for the "A"uthentication part. 
The same thing happened with DSD, way back. DSD was literally implemented in a manner of days by MSB's engineers, and deployed (for free) via a simple firmware update. 
Other manufacturers, who rely on OEMs for their USB or Ethernet inputs, had to wait much longer to deploy these technologies, as they don't have effective control over their own product.
I truly think you should definitely give Vince @ MSB a call before you do anything.


cheers,
Alex

4425 at this price point it will of course come down to taste, features, philosophy and of course sonic palatte.

Mr. Harly has the enviable task of testing the latest and greatest in digital so it is only logical he will endorse or non endorse a particular front end which is new on the market which may upend the apple cart as there are new companies and products being introduced. 

Lumin, DCS, MSB, T+A, EMM Labs,  Esoteric are all fantastic companies with state of the art digital front ends, and of course it is possible to fall in love with one over the others. 

We have tested EMM, Esoteric, and have had DCS gear traded in, we keep on comming back to Lumin because it is so good for the price point. 

As we have mentioned in other posts the Lumin X1 is not going to be for everyone, if you want an analog volume control, or a headphone amp or digital inputs this piece will not be for that customer, for this reason we just brought in Bricasti to complement the Aqua, and other dacs we sell. 

You have to understand as a company we embrace a companies technology and engineering as one way to help codify the kinds of products and companies we want to work with. 

It also depends on the philosophical approach, some people like the idea of being able to upgrade their sound by adding an external box or two, in the case of an external clock many engineers feel that putting an external clock in a separate case away from the dac is not desirable. 

We are not saying that a multi box approach like DCS takes in their higher end pieces is wrong, it jus comes down do you want to take the space and extra power cords and cables to add additional boxes or upsamplers vs an all in one solution?

The reason we selected the T+A SD 3100 to be our reference was the overwelming nature of the piece it does everything well and offers a feature set as well as a sound quality and technlogical advancements that most other audio companies could only dream of.

Please show us one digital front end that:

Can be ordered with a world class preamp for almost no addiitonal cost.
Has a very good streamer built in.
Offers Blue Tooth, HDMI and multiple digital inputs.
Has an excellent native control app.
Has multiple filter setting to tune the sound.
Offers a completely separate DSD and PCM pathway.
Has a very good heaphone amplifier.
Natively decodes the worlds highest sampling frequencies.
Offers OTA upgrades.
Reasonable size and weight.

As per the OP the sound of the SD 3100 is smooth and natural it is not tubey sounding nor bright, just neutral with a hint of warmth and smoothness. 

One possible advantage may 

The fact that this dac can process sampling frequecies that are not even available means that the Dac can grow into higher sampling rates when they are available.

We do not have a computer based server fast enough yet to run HQ player to turn DSD 512 to DSD 1024 which one of the European reviewers was able to do so and basically rewrote the sound qulaity that that reviewer thought was possible in digital.

So we will be searching for a new server line that can offer this tantalizing prospect of being the best digital on the planet and yet still costing a fraction of a full MSB or DCS stack costs. 

This is an exciting time for high end digital.

We by no means mean to imply that the T+A will sound better than anyone elses product just that it is a unique product that does happen to sound amazing especially if you go the distance and use a very high end server that can handle the highest of frequencies.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor T+A dealers

It is fascinating the two styles these dealers have. One is informative, clears up misinformation and politely gives his recommendation. While the other dismisses brands he doesn't sell and continually promotes one's he does sell. Even the OP politely told this dealer the product doesn't have what he's looking for (MQA) and might not be the best match for his system.

4425 states: "audiotroy...i laud you as a very informed dealer. i really do. i also have no reason to question what you say. in the end the customer decides after learning and hearing the product. it is my hope that you don’t demean customers that don’t come to the same conclusion. it happens a lot but is a poor method of selling products."

Seems like there has been enough dealer input on this really interesting thread.

Emotion is the only key to success in audio. In 2016 I started to read a lot about how human emotion works regarding sound and music. It gave me new insights but I also did understand things a lot better. All the different aspects of sound can influence our emotions when we listen to music. You will find all the details and different aspects of the music on each recording.

So you want an audio system and also a source to be able to reveal and give you access to all these details and different aspects of the music. But the facts show and prove that most audio products and also sources are not even able to reveal all aspects of sound. This is based on the fact that they do not own these aspects/properties of sound. And what is missing can never even be revealed. It is even that simple.

In 2010 I decided to spend even more time and effort in the research of sound&vision. Most of that time I did spend on the research in audio. Because I am addicted to music since I was 6 years old. In 2015 I started to do research in all aspects which influence sound and stage negatively beside the acoustic. I already spend thousands of hours in the research of the acoustic.

I over 21 years of time I always had a lot of contact with different specialists in their particular field. In 2015 I started to focus on what electro-smog does to the stage and sound of an audio system. During these tests, I always had a lot of contact with a person who has a lot of experience in electro-smog. Later in 2015 I also started to do research in magnetism on sound and stage.

People have no idea how much you loose in dynamics, layers, and resolution due to the influence of electro-smog, high-frequent nose, and magnetism on sound and stage of an audio system. In 2016 I started to do research regarding high-frequency noise on sound and stage. Again I had contact with a person who is specialized in this particular part.

Diversity (layering) in sound is by far the most important aspect of sound due to the fact that it has the most influence on our emotions during listening to music. The harmonics of a recording are essential to be revealed to get access to the most important influence on our emotions. But also other aspects can influence our emotions. So you need a source to give you access to all aspects/properties of each recording.

We are Lumin dealer and also Sbooster dealer for about 4,5 years now. We love both brands a lot but in our world, they are standard by far not good enough to our demands and expectations. Due to working together with different specialists we brought digital audio to a much higher level most people don’t even know yet. We had the goal to bring digital audio to a much more realistic and emotional experience.

We judge all individual audio products on what we call: "DNA". First, we want to know which aspects of sound a product can reveal. And second, the way how the individual aspects of sound are being displayed. We need all the products independently to be able to reveal all aspects of sound. This also counts for all the individual parts we use for modifications.

We modify Lumin network players and even the Lumin L1 music server. We imply superior parts who are also a lot better in layering in sound. When we demo a standard Lumin network player or the Lumin L1 compared to our modified versions. You see the smiles and excitement on the faces of all our customers. The same counts for the differences between a standard Sbooster and our modified AudioFacts Sbooster.

All our insight and knowledge regarding the influence of electro-smog, high-frequency noise, and magnetism on sound and stage is also being used in all our modifications. And shows and proves how much more you can reveal out of a source. This will blow your mind and create a much more emotional and intense experience during listening to music.

A few months ago we started to sell the Silent Bonn N8 switch.

http://www.thunder-data.com/z5

A month ago we started to modify the Silent Bonn N8 as well. And when you hear the difference between the standard and modified one, you can not even imagine that it is the same switch. We also have a network specialist in our team. Together we can bring any network home situation to a much higher-end result. In detail, we can go further than any other company on this planet.

By adding a modified Sbooster to a modified Bonn switch you will experience a new level in digital audio. I will soon write a review of it. You can see all the photos of the modification as well. For us, audio is like a Formula 1 car. We improve products and create new levels over and over again.

Sound is so much more complex than anyone can even imagine. For digital audio, we had to do adapt a lot to reveal so many more details and layers of each recording. Extreme perfectionism is in my blood and DNA. Together it is our goal to bring more people to an emotional and intense experience each time they listen to their own system.

Music is emotion and when you want to experience all the emotion music possesses, you need a source to give you access to all the details and aspects of each recording. Now when we demo a modified Lumin X1 together with a modified Lumin L1 music server, modified Bonn switch and 2 modified Sboosters it exceeds all your thoughts about digital audio.

The thing I love most about audio is the fact that the most emotional and intense source always will be preferred and chosen. I am proud of what we achieved together. When you want people to use their audio system every single day, it needs to reveal all aspects of sound. This is why we work by Tru-Fi. What stands for True fidelity. And it is based on all the different aspects/properties of sound.

bo1972

Very exciting and interesting posts....Thanks...

It is the first times I read someone here that insist about "electro-smog" ( I will borrow your word if you give the right to me) with conviction and knowledge from experiments, what I had called in my thread, noise in the house electrical grid... My living experience is, at least 40% of the S.Q. ( Sound quality) comes from a cleaning of the house electrical grid...The other 30% comes from the passive treatment of the room with reflective and absorbent materials and active modifications of the acoustical space with also mechanical controls of vibrations-resonance...Only 30 % comes from the main electronical components for me, assuming an almost or relative equality or equivalence,a variation in quality instead of a transformation amongst all the products that are on the same rung; I assume 3 rungs scale price/ quality between products : low, mid, high...( These numbers are not science ,only metaphor to communicate my experience and experiments)

Then the most important upgrade of all, living with products somewhere in a rung of this scale, is the cleaning of the electrical house grid, after that, passive and active modifications of the acoustical space and resonance controls....The third upgrade in an audio system is the change of a main electronic component ( turntable or dac, amplifier, speakers) but this upgrade is generally the least powerful of the three, contrary to the majority opinions, especially if your change remains in the same rung of the scale.


In spite of this fact most people who talks upgrade speak about changing an electronic component , unbeknownst to them the powerful degradation induced by what you called the electro-smog in the electrical grid of house and room and in the electronic component also, all being linked in all including one audio system....


You create some new electronic component to clean this noise, Sbooster and Bonn N8, I use homemade low cost methods....I dont say that my cheap methods are equal in power to your research top of the line products, I only say that even with cheap homemade solutions I think the same exactly about what you call electro-smog....Most people like you said

People have no idea how much you loose in dynamics, layers, and resolution due to the influence of electro-smog, high-frequent nose, and magnetism on sound and stage of an audio system.

I am no scientist at all, only someone with no money that dreamed to create his own sound heaven....I make my dream comes true and want to communicate my enthusiasm to others and some solutions... My best to you ….

hahahaha....anyone can use the words he or she wants and like to use.

The Sbooster is a power supply and the Bonn N8 is a switch. And have both nothing to do with electro-smog, high-frequency noise, and magnetism. I work full time in audio for over 21 years of time. I am often surprised at how little people who work in audio about all the aspects which influence sound and stage.

When I aks (I have done this many times) to a manufacturer: what are all the aspects which influence sound and stage?

They often only can name the acoustic. The main reason why audio is so ineffective is based on the fact how little most people know.

There are more things which also effect sound and stage a lot, which people also don’t even know like the level of humidity. I am addicted to music and I am addicted to researching as well. I want to understand why things are as they are.

When you see how poor the average level is of most digital sources and DACS, there is always a reason why? The biggest problem at this moment is that most network players and DACS are limited in revealing diversity in sound. In this part, we made the biggest improvements. When we do a shootout between our modified network players and those of clients, we can easily let them experience and hear so many more details and most of all layers in the whole frequency range. We are also a lot further in the level of a 3-dimensional stage a source can create.

When you judge (I have done so many tests of products) an audio product on how voices and instruments sound in reality, most differ a lot. And again there is a reason why?

When I ask manufacturers: "What are all the different aspects of sound?"

"What are all the different aspects which negative influence sound and stage?"

" How does human emotion works regarding music and sound?"

They have no idea, how for God’s sake you want to prove that you understand audio when you do not even understand sound and music? And all the aspects which negatively influence sound and stage.

We use parts in our modifications who limit the influence on electro-smog, high-frequency noise, and magnetism. But we also use many tools who also limit these negative aspects. This gives us access to a much higher level in dynamics, layering, and resolution of each individual component and also the loudspeakers.

I am grateful to all the different specialists in over 21 years of time I used for their expertise. When you want to understand audio, you need to understand everything that influences sound and stage. Even the weekend before I started to work fulltime in audio (3rd July 1998) I was aware that I needed to be able to think in the aspects/properties of sound. So I started to learn this all by myself.

When I would not have a photographic memory in sound I would never have been able to think in patterns. This is also needed to understand all the different connections. I know why a sound and a stage of each system is what we all hear. Because I learned how to relate sound. When you are not able to relate sound, it is 100% impossible to understand audio at all until you die!

People have no idea that they only have access to a very limited level of the full potential of every single part within their system. For a source, this is the same story. We use shootouts to let people hear and experience how much more dynamics, layers, and resolution we can get out of our sources compared to their own sources.

The biggest difference is that I always can overrule and outperform any audio shop or company in emotion. That is why; EMOTION IS THE ONLY KEY TO SUCCESS IN AUDIO. There is no discussion even possible, period! I can reproduce sound because I only work by all the different aspects of sound. Reading about human emotion made me understand what I need to create a more emotional and realistic sound and stage.

Trail and error fooled all people all around the world in audio. And still is the main reason why audio has become a decreasing market. Trial&error mains you connect an amp, loudspeaker, source, and cables together. And you listen to the end result.

Instruments and voices sound as they sound during the recording. This has 100% nothing to do with any kind of silly personal taste. Instruments and voices even have their own dimension and delimitation in space. So you need an audio system that is able to reveal this.

This means on facts that you need a system that is able to reveal all aspects of sound. This has nothing to do with personal taste. Each audio system that can reveal all aspects of sound will be experienced as more emotional and intense than any incomplete (a system that lacks different aspects of sound) audio set.

But when I ask each human on this planet; When I take that loudspeaker out, which aspects of sound I take out? And when I replace them by those loudspeakers. Which aspects of sound did I place back?

No one has any idea. What proves on 100% facts that trail&error has no real foundation at all. It is 100% pure audio gambling how people work. When I discuss this with manufacturers they all start to laugh and even say; YOU ARE 100% RIGHT! I even don’t care about the fact that I am right.

People need to learn and become aware that trail&error will never make them create the system they would like to own.

Everything a human does without a real foundation can never be done effectively. People are often aware that they do not like an audio system. They use the words; I feel nothing, it is not involving or I miss the connection with the music. Again this has nothing to do with any kind of personal taste.

It is all based on the fact that this system lacks emotion. And why does it miss the emotion? Because that system can not reveal all the different aspects of sound. We are talking about 100% facts. Emotion will always be the only key to success in audio.

Most sources and DACS can also not reveal all aspects of sound. Because these products do not own these aspects/properties of sound. And what is missing can never be revealed. When we modify a product, we can only improve the aspects/properties is already owns. We can not add missing aspects of sound.

This means there is only one option: you need to create an audio system that will give you access to all aspects of sound. There is no other option possible to get success in audio, end of discussion!

I make that with homemade cheap solutions addressing :

1-The mechanical environment of each electronic component (vibrations-resonances controls)

2-The electrical grid of the room and of the house

3a-the "passive" room treatment with materials absorbant and reflective ones

3b-the "active" acoustical space modifications with reflectors, Helmholtz resonators, Schumann generators,etc


The emotion coming from the sound of an audio system is for me directly linked to the way we address these 4 points...Not only to the source like a dac....

The biggest problem in audio is the 100% fact that most audio products can not even reveal all aspects of sound. This can easily be proven by sound and stage. 

People do audio by trial and error. So they never have an idea why the sound and stage is what they hear. What they do is replacing a part (amp, source, loudspeaker, conditioner, cable, etc) for another one. But they forget that they replace it with a product that also can not reveal all aspects of sound.

This is why each trial&error system will always be incomplete and miss different aspects of sound. So people will experience and describe it as less emotional and intense.  

The biggest problem in audio is the 100% fact that most audio products can not even reveal all aspects of sound. This can easily be proven by sound and stage.

People do audio by trial and error. So they never have an idea why the sound and stage is what they hear. What they do is replacing a part (amp, source, loudspeaker, conditioner, cable, etc) for another one. But they forget that they replace it with a product that also can not reveal all aspects of sound.

This is why each trial&error system will always be incomplete and miss different aspects of sound. So people will experience and describe it as less emotional and intense.

Wow! this is a first for me here.... You are right on the spot...

I say that in my thread for the last year...And I describe there my own experiments and experience that lead me to the exact conclusion your just write...

The only difference between you and me, I am only an ordinary guy with no background in science, I conduct my own experiments with my ears and listenings experiments without any knowledge... And I devise solutions homemade, new, and low costs a step at a time to please my ears ...Your solutions are probably better, but my own solutions drives me to the same conclusion than you.... I wrote the same thing in my thread....

Buying a new electronic component is not the way to upgrade a system because most people dont even know the real potential of their actual audio system and they dont even know that they dont know....

You said: «most audio products can not even reveal all aspects of sound» and for me the reason is linked to the deficient manner with which most people worked with the 4 points I described in my precedent post....Any relatively good product can reveal emotion and a good S. Q. if these 4 points are addressed.... The most important one being the electrical grid of the house( breaker panels, wall plug unused, router, box of optical cables etc). This is the reason why I think your product is probably very good...The electrical grid produce this electrical-smog that plague all audio system and is underestimated even by pro in audio....


I will not say something more here, because I dont own a high end dac and I dont want to derail this thread ….And people who are interested in high end dac are not interested by homemade low cost solutions in general.... My best to all...

I do not wish to derail this thread, either, but I feel it’s worth repeating that by the time the signal arrives at the DAC it’s too late, the damage has already been done. The signal is irrevocably distorted as soon as the laser touches the metal layer on the CD and attempts to read the nanoscale data encoded thereon. It’s mostly because of the fluttering and vibration of the disc itself whilst spinning, the effect of external and internal vibration on the signal in wire, fuse and laser assembly, etc. AND the introduction of scattered CD laser light into the photodetector. The Error Correction Codes and the Laser Tracking servo system can’t save it. All the King’s horses and all the King’s men can’t put Humpty Dumpty together again. 🥚

No matter how much you have in the end you would have had even more if you had started out with more in the beginning. As the little mice say in the movie Babe 🐷 - That’s the way things are! 🎶 You can paint a donkey different colors but it’s still a donkey. 🦓

We have done many tests with many different separate DACS, and each time we hear the same limitations. Humans are 100% unfit for audio, but they even don't know yet. Facts will always lead in life after time.

It is really sad to see and hear how limited the level is of most digital network players and DACS. Manufacturers need a different focus to create new audio products who are able to reveal all aspects of sound. 

When you are not able to perceive all aspects of sound within 1/10 of a second, you can never make the right and best decision. Humans focus often on 1 aspect of sound at the same time. And a maximum of 3. 

When we audition system at shows, new clients or at shops, the sound and stage prove that they are all incomplete. They always miss different aspects of sound. We are talking about 100% facts. This is why they all lack emotion. Based on the fact that all different aspects of sound can independently influence our emotions when we listen to music.

EACH AUDIO SYSTEM THAT IS ABLE TO REVEAL ALL ASPECTS OF SOUND, WILL BE EXPERIENCED AS MUCH MORE EMOTIONAL AND INTENSE COMPARED TO ANY INCOMPLETE TRIAL&ERROR SYSTEM.

Trial&error make all people believe that audio is all a matter of personal taste. This is just an assumption like you believed in Santa Claus or Sinterklaas when you were a child.  It has no real foundation and is not based on truth and facts.

Voices and instruments have their own sound when they are recorded. They even have their own size/dimension as they have their own delimitation in space. You will find all the details and different aspects of the music on each recording.

WHEN YOU WANT AN AUDIO SYSTEM TO BE ABLE TO GIVE YOU ACCESS TO THESE DETAILS AND ASPECTS OF A RECORDING YOU NEED A SYSTEM THAT IS ABLE TO REVEAL THIS ALL.

EACH INDIVIDUAL PART OF YOUR SYSTEM NEEDS THE FULL DNA OF ALL ASPECTS OF SOUND.

EVEN WHEN ONE PART OF YOUR SYSTEM LACKS ONE OR MORE ASPECTS OF SOUND, YOU WILL LOSE A LOT OF THE EMOTION OF THE MUSIC YOU PLAY. AND YOUR SYSTEM WILL BE INCOMPLETE.

YOU ARE ONLY ALLOWED TO USE THE WORD HIGH-END WHEN A SYSTEM CAN PROVE BY SOUND AND STAGE THAT IT IS ABLE TO REVEAL ALL ASPECTS OF SOUND.

IN ALL OTHER SITUATIONS YOU OWN A HI-FI SYSTEM.

Trial&error and the silly assumption that audio is just a matter of personal taste made all humans become 'sleepers'. They all forgot the truth and the essence of audio. When you do not understand sound and music it becomes 100% impossible to understand audio at all.

The money will never help you a lot in audio. When you can not relate sound and audio it becomes impossible what you are doing and want to change in any system. People need to face the truth and let go of trial&error as soon as possible.

EMOTION WILL ALWAYS BE THE ONLY KEY TO SUCCESS IN AUDIO.

Most people think and believe that a separate DAC is a better solution than an inbuilt DAC. This is only based on an assumption. But life is all about the real truth and facts. 

Our modified Lumin network players easily outperform network players with separate DACS. Because we can prove by sound and stage than we can reveal all aspects of sound. And second, we can show that all different aspects are being independently being played at a much higher level.

You can not buy an ultimate sound in digital audio by buying products out of a box. We had to adapt so many aspects of creating an ultimate level in digital audio. It was not available so we had to create it ourselves. 

bo... i don’t think you’d be much fun to work with. too serious and verbose concerning audio. should be fun! imo

Bo I say the same exact thing for the last year in my thread... Except I dont sell dac, and my solution are low cost and homemade....Nodody believe me because it is not so simple to implement my 4 points methods and it is too much cheap to be true (around 500 hundred dollars).

I own a 500 hundred dollars systems where the stage is 3-d holographic, timbre are natural, and music immersive....I apologize for my rant.... Blessings to all...

I am an extremely born perfectionist and no there is no room for error and faults. Our clients call their systems addictive. Because we create systems for them who are all able to reveal all aspects of sound.

We have much more open and direct contact with all our individual clients. I do this to help people. My father learned me that life is not about me. But what I can do for other people. And this is how I do audio as well.

This year I will start to make professional videos (I bought a professional 13000 euro Sony 4k camera) of our clients. I will let them tell their own story. So other people will understand why they are so happy with their system and use it every single day.

I don’t work in the world of sound&vision to make a living of it. That is only for the born losers in this world. I want to create new levels of quality and emotion. It is a choice I made.

Trial&error created a lot of damage all over the world in audio. In over 21 years of time, I visited hundreds of people at home. The facts showed how little music most people own. This proves that trial&error does not make people enjoy playing a lot of music with their own system.

Many are in a circle and hope (what is just an illusion) to create the sound and stage they hope to find. But trial&error does not give you any real foundation and understanding about the parts you changed.

Now the time has come to do audio a lot different........

Speaking of perfectionists one potential problem is see is that human beings are by nature imperfect. And human beings that consider themselves perfect oft work in isolation, developing their own theories of sound and physics. I’m 100% sure there is a logical fallacy in the very concept of referring to oneself as a perfectionist. Argumentum absolutum. 😬 Yet, the theories and physics that perfectionIsts develop are frequently DIFFERENT from each other. And if they are different from each other then they all can’t be perfect. Make sense? This conundrum I like to call the Stove Piping of audio systems. 🏭 It’s like musical chairs - you can get stuck without a chair. 🤗

I am not perfect either, but I can go a lot further into details than others. I improve many different things in audio all the time and over and over again. I start to create new ideas in my head. And I will try them out with an audio system that can reveal all aspects of sound.

In our world, acoustic limitations do not exist anymore. But in the trial&error world, it is still the most negative part. Dedication and thousands of hours made me able to understand why it affects sound and stage so much. And how to solve it.

Each human will always choose a system that is experienced as more emotional and intense. By creating audio systems that can reveal all aspects of sound without any acoustic limitation creates together new freedom in audio.

Because it brings you so much closer to the music and you are never be taken out of your comfort zone due to the negative influence of the acoustic. This also counts for electro-smog, high-frequency noise, and magnetism.

We did the same with digital audio, we reduced all the negative aspects of sound and stage. Many people forget most of these negative aspects because they have no experience and knowledge about them.

audiotroy says.... “Please show us one digital front end that: Can be ordered with a world class preamp for almost no additional cost”.

Aurender A30
DCS Bartok

PS: Worldclass is bit of exaggeration when it comes to preamp functionality in a ‘all in one’ box components.

In January 2015 my system and that of many of my clients were not stable enough. It could be awesome for a week and after that week I could hear some harshness in the sound. And the dynamics and layering would be less as well. And when I visited clients I auditioned it even more often.

So I phoned a person who is also specialized in electro-smog. We talked for many hours on the phone at that time. And I started to focus on the influence of electro-smog. And I tested many tools that are on the market in this particular aspect.

Like most audio products most products regarding electro-smog are not able to reveal all aspects of sound. So based on Tru-Fi (all aspects of sound) most products did work more negative than positive. But after time I understood what electro-smog is and does to sound and stage.

And I was able to find different tools (products and parts we use for modification) that can reveal all aspects of sound and limit the negative influence of electro-smog. Later that year I started to focus on the influence of magnetism on sound and stage.

In 2016 I met a person who is specialized in high-frequency noise. Again we talked for hours on the phone. I started to test different products and parts that reduce the influence of high-frequency noise. And again most products and parts again were not able to reveal all aspects of sound.

It cost me a lot of time to find parts and products who are able to give me access to all aspects of sound. Because over 99,99% are still useless. This is what it is. But  I can deal with that.

Now in 2020, we are far ahead of all other people in audio. This year we will start to talk with manufacturers to imply our ideas in products and systems. It will create many new options and levels in both sound&vision.

I dont believe in miraculous solution in general, when they exist they are always high cost.

There exist differences between each rung of the 3 rungs scale, an amplifier of 500 dollars cannot beat a 10,000 one....But this being said, the fabulous upgrading of the sound I live with a low cost budget has transformed totally my system in this " emotional" space where it is impossible to turn off any musical files because it is too beautiful and unique...I trusted my ears and they guide me each step at a time....The ears know much than our conscious brain...

I am not a fool ,there exist better systems than mine, my point is not boasting about my system, my point is debating the belief that it is necessary to pay big money to afford this "emotional" musical space... For me the dimensions of sound necessary to enjoy music are : natural timbre, imaging, soundstage, immersive presence, details, 3-d very precise locations of main instruments and background...Presence of harmonics in relations with all or most of the spectrum...My 4 points methods address the 4 level of perceived musical sound... I will not repeat it here tough.... I just want to gives hope to all people with low cost budget...I enjoy very much what I have and know why.... My best to all....

The money will never guarantee you anything. People think and talk about brands and products all the time in audio. It proves that they do not understand sound and audio at all. I now have contact with several new clients in the US as well. I was surprised how much further we are in audio than people in the US are.

Many people in the US still connect their systems often directly to the wall. When I said this to my clients, many of them started to laugh and were surprised about this.

We also create special audio groups in electricity for our clients. People forget that due to trial&error you can only get access to a rather limited level in the end result of every single part of their system.

When you are not able to understand the DNA of each individual product you use, your choices become even laughable. The saddest part in audio is the fact that most audio products can not reveal all aspects of sound.

This has a huge negative impact on each system you imply these products. It will always lower the level of the emotion of the whole system. Many sources and DACS can only create a very limited level in the layering of sound. The harmonics on the recording are the most important part of the emotion music possesses.

People make often the wrong decisions in sources too. First by buying network players and DACS who are not even able to reveal all aspects of sound. And second, they forget most aspects who negatively influence their source and DAC.

If the OP reads through those Novellas my hats off to him.🧢

Where is the long sought ‘IGNORE’ button...I sure would like to skip  through all those posts by bo 😉

A 10,000 thousands dollars dac cannot be used with 1000 amplifier+speakers...Then like you said the question is not about money "per se"...There is 3 rungs in the scale...We must know at which rung a product is in term of quality/ price...

Second point, plugging directly to the wall is destructive of the sound, but you can alleviate that with modified and tweaked battery off the grid, or like me with homemade noise cleaning devices all along the electrical grid of the house, whose efficiency are vey high at relatively low costs...I will never upgrade my dac because of his low cost, and low noise with its minimal design, and no evident limitations in my 500 hundred dollars audio system...Each rung of the scale must be filled with products in the same rung...


My methods was not trials and errors in the way of a buying spree process, my methods was correction a step at a times during one year, by a trials and error with systematic listenings experiments and corrections by feed back with low costs homemade creations, at the end of which my audio system were able to gives me emotions...Total cost: 1000 dollars E.C. +tweaks... I dont calculate one thousand dollars of trials and errors in unsucessful buyings before my systematic series of experiments, keeping always the good gear I owned after my buying spree...


The general problem in audio is simple: people dont trust their ears, and dont give themselves the means to learn how to listen with experiments...

By the way each one of us possess a unique and particular hearing system, with is limits, and deficiencies.... I dont speak when I speak about hearing to some superhuman perceiving bat power in me or others...I am 68 years old....I speak about working with our own listening potential in a learning process...

I silence myself now.... Sorry if I had speak too much... My best to all...

@djones51 @lalitk 

it was all REALLY good until page 6 lol

honestly, it might be appreciated if folks think they may be taking a thread off topic (at least enough so that they apologize and indicate that they don't want to do that) - that they actually not take the thread off topic.

Maybe just to confirm, I was most interested in Esoteric, DCS, MSB, T+A DACs and their synergy/fit with my Mcintosh components :0

but I also realize its usually nice to have fulsome discussions...

@ufguy73,

Speaking of your quest for digital front, where are you on auditioning offerings from DCS, MSB or T+A?

Hate to repeat, but only way to know what sounds best with your existing gear is to listen new component in your home.

@lalitk

so, my local dealer (who ironically doesn’t carry any of those) has indicated he can get some demo units (at least for MSB and likely DCS...not as optimistic about T+A but given the MQA thing not sure that will matter to me)...

So, I basically need to tell him what I would like to try and he will work on getting what I want - I think this is dovetailing nicely into him otherwise wanting to establish some professional relationships with those particular brands as well.

if he can’t come through on an particular brand I would like to try, I will have considering going down the out-of-state path.

@ufguy73,

Sound like a plan. I always support local dealers, it’s an important relationship that pays out well beyond the initial demo/sale.

The word ’synergy’ is also just an illusion. And you know why? Because a source who is able to reveal all aspects of sound will always work better in any system than a source who lacks one or more aspects of sound.

When you judge most audio products, you will often hear that they choose for a focus (emphasis) on a certain frequency range. But an audio product always needs to be linear on the whole frequency range.

And you know why?

Because without this, a product can never reveal all aspects of sound. It will always show that it lacks one or more aspects of sound. The reason why you need all different parts of your system to be able to reveal all the different aspects of sound individual is based on this reason:

Even when you imply one part (it even can be one fuse) that can not reveal all aspects of sound. The end result of this system will always be incomplete. And it will create a lower level of emotion.

High-End is a level in sound quality where a system can prove by sound and stage that it can reveal all aspects of sound. When a system misses one or more aspects of sound it will always be a Hi-Fi system.

Over 99,99% of all produced audio products are 100% Hi-Fi products. Based on the fact that they all miss different aspects of sound. The stage and sound will always prove this easily.

The High-End show in Munich is a Hi-Fi show based on the fact that over 90% of all systems are 2-dimensional and even lacks more aspects of sound. People use and abuse the word ’High-End’ over and over again. It has no meaning anymore when you can not reveal all aspects of sound by your system. Then your system proves by sound and stage that it is just a Hi-Fi system.

In the end, only facts will show and prove the real truth in life. And for audio counts the same. Trial&error has given all people the wrong ideas and thoughts about sound and music. And what it did is creating only incomplete audio systems all over the world. Where people are only busy with their system instead of only listening to music.

Ufguy, MQA will be a software upgrade for the T+A so you shouldn’t preclude it from your search for that reason alone.

The reason that update isn’t imminant is that T+A’s engineers are busy with the launch of their new Headphone amp, dac, so we are sure that once that product is compleated all the streamers will receive the MQA update.
https://www.stereonet.co.uk/news/ta-announces-first-headphones-and-headphone-amplifier

You may also want to consider the T+A SDV 3100 verson which has a world class analog preamp built in.

The possibility that the preamp version may far outperform the Macintosh preamp and allow you to resale that might make that a nice option for you.

You should try to hear one it is a remarkable piece, and also the MSB and DCS products. We are sure that out of one of those three you would find a fanatastic dac. Obviously the Lumin streamers are 100% MQA compatible.

Also you should know that if you use a server to feed even a non MQA dac you will still get the first unfold to 96k for MQA you just wouldn’t get the second.

In our opinion the bettter dac playing non MQA will still outperform one that will. Food for thought.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ T+A, Lumin

bo1972, edited for brilliance:

The word ’synergy’ is an illusion. A source that reveals all aspects of sound will always work better in any system than a source that lacks one or more aspects of sound. 
The same goes for not only the source but every single part of the system. Therefore you need all different parts of your system to be able to reveal all the different aspects of sound. 

Even when you have one part (it even can be one fuse) that can not reveal all aspects of sound, the end result will always be incomplete. And it will create a lower level of emotion.  

Hope you don't mind me tightening it up a bit because that was brilliant. And not just because its exactly the philosophy my system is based on! From my System description:

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367

The System is built around the philosophy that everything matters. Everything either contributes or detracts, and no one single component is any more or less important than any other. Even details as small as where a component goes or how the wire is routed make a difference you can hear. Everything matters. 

The System is also built around the philosophy that the ideal component does nothing. The perfect component does not sound a certain way. It does not impart, it does not detract. It is not there at all.

"Even when you have one part (it even can be one fuse) that can not reveal all aspects of sound, the end result will always be incomplete. And it will create a lower level of emotion." 

Beautiful!

I am a music addict and I spend about 10 to 15 hours these days listening to new music every single week. I spend about 200 euros on music I buy to put it on my modified Lumin L1 music server.

Most people think and believe (and again it is all based on an assumption) that music you stream by Tidal or Qobuz is the same quality compared to the music you can buy by companies like Qobuz.

We want to teach new clients the differences between the same music played by streaming Qobuz, a Synology Nas and a modified Lumin L1 music server.

And now comes the truth...............

Our modified Lumin L1 server is over 70% better in sound quality compared to the same music at the same bit rate when you stream it by Qobuz.

People forget that you get a compressed amount of data when you listen to a song you stream by Tidal or Qobuz. At the same time, there are are more people who are listening to the same song. The fact that you stream even in High-Res does not say anything about the amount of data.

When you play the same song by a modified Lumin L1 music server including a modified Sbooster you get access to a much bigger amount of data.

It will blow your mind when you hear the differences between the same music played by the L1 and Qobuz. This is why almost all our clients bought a modified Lumin L1 music sever and an AudioFacts modified SBooster.

Even most reviews in audio the people who write articles by streaming music. This is even laughable. Our clients have all the same kind of experience when they started to use the modified Lumin L1 and the modified AudioFacts Sbooster.

They wanted to play music all night long. They all listened to their system more than before. This is what emotion does to us humans. It is sad to see how little people know about music and sound.

I want people all over the world to experience the beauty and emotion of music. For this, you will need all the aspects of sound. Without this, you only will have a limited level of emotion.

Lumin and T+A dealer,

You've stated you opinion over and over and over.....we got it. Thank you!

bo1972

Humans are 100% unfit for audio, but they even don’t know yet.

Most of us here are humans, I think. We’re mere mortals, so it may be difficult for us to accept the proclamations made by a superhuman, or god, or whatever it is that you’re trying to convince us you are.

When you hear the level we can create at this moment in digital audio, it will surpass all your ideas about music. For me, it is difficult to understand why humans all forgot to use a real foundation in all their choices in audio. 

When I talk with manufacturers about the way we work, they all agree that trial&error has no foundation at all. It also proves that the awareness of humans is so limited that they are not even able to become aware of themselves that trail&error has no foundation.

How it is even possible that humans forgot to think that when you want to understand audio you first need to learn to understand sound and music. When we talk to our clients about this, they all start to laugh. Now they all understand that trial&error was the main reason why they never could get their system right.

Easy target 🎯 

As long as I live it will be very easy to outperform every single human on this planet in audio. I can bring each individual system to a much higher level than this person can reach by him or herself until this person dies!

The MQA music is often very poorly recorded. I listen to them every single week when I look for new music. No audio format will ever give you a better result in the quality of the recording.

I also have a lot of DSD music on my modified Lumin L1  music server. But I even own 16 bit 44.1 kHz recordings which are even better than some good DSD recordings. I have some DSD512 recordings which are by far the best I own.

But still how a recording has been done, it far more important than the format. These days the quality of recodings is becoming worse, unfortunately. This is not a good thing.

“No audio format will ever give you a better result in the quality of the recording”

@bo1972,

This is very concerning, what can we do to fix this?

The MQA music is often very poorly recorded. I listen to them every single week when I look for new music. No audio format will ever give you a better result in the quality of the recording.

@bo1972,

do you ever compare an MQA streaming recording, to the native high rez file? it's easy. go to HD tracks and download the highest rez.

or maybe to the analog tape source? this is harder to do, but not impossible.

and what level of sources do you use for that high rez native file, or analog tape? this is an important part.

you have to properly hear the source to judge what MQA does......or does not....do.

I buy sometimes music over here: 

https://www.highresaudio.com/en/site/index

Many of the MQA recordings are recorded too loud and miss a lot of layering in sound. 

I am not interested in streaming, this is in my world only made for children. Not even when they paid me 100 euro each day I would start to stream by Tidal or Qobuz.

I have to say that I buy over 90% of all my music at Qobuz. I am not that impressed by MQA, to be honest. I own some DSD512 recordings, this is from another planet that makes MQA even laughable. I am an extreme perfectionist and only the best is good enough for me. 2nd best and less is only made for the born losers on this planet.

Why you would give your clients less than the best possible? We want our clients to get the best quality for their hard-earned money. We take care of all our clients independently. I don't do this for money, but to help people to get a Tru-Fi system.

I make all incomplete (lacking one or more aspects of sound) systems complete by implying the aspects of sound which are missing. Because this is the only option to make people happy with their system. So they will want to use it every single day!