@audiopoint VERY well said. I would add that the next generation of music consumers may have no desire to have multiple racks of gear in a dedicated listening room shut off to the world. A multi box shrine with its sundry rituals to some aspiriation that no one else aspires to can get pretty lonely. There are likely stamp collectors sitting in some dusty, lonely room wondering why no one shares their passion, buggy whip collectors are likely feeling it too! But using these same paralells, the eccentric stamp collector is likely mourning that this new generation has lost its desire to send communiques when in fact, there are new ways to communicate. Buggy whip collectors mourn the apparent lack of desire for propulsion by the new generation when in fact there are new ways to motivate propulsion.
Humans find new and more efficient methods to accomplish their goals. Are they always better? It depends on whats important to you and what you value. Is it the trip or the destination? Many felt the world came to an end when the great transoceanic ships were being displaced by air travel. They assumed incorrectly that everyone thought the important part of the exercise was the journey and for others it was the destination. Do you use your gear to listen to music or is music the necessary component so you may listen to and play with your gear?!?!?
Music will always be consumed by man, it just might not be consumed by a solitary old white guy closed off in a converted garage (while his ‘88 Camry bakes outside with peeling paint) with padded walls debating electronically with distant strangers the merits of a blue fuse or a black fuse in the power supply to the power supply of their turntable motor. If this statement hits too close to home then you might consider getting up out of your specially crafted chair that is both comfortable and yet not so absorptive as to damage the soundstage of that 1958 recording bootlegged out of that acoustically challenged lower Manhattan basement club of a heroin addicted clarinetist playing the 100th version of some show tune. The sun is probably shining outside and there is an amazing hike waiting just for you! There are new friends to make and socialize with and dine with and share the joys of life and music will likely be a part of some of that experience. The multi box shrine will be there when you get back. |
Hi ghasley "A multi box shrine with its sundry rituals to some aspiriation that no one else aspires to can get pretty lonely." I have heard people say this before in HEA, but I've never personally experienced the lonely side. Maybe it's just me and the friends I attract or am attracted to. I have never hung out with people who didn't do music, or who didn't have these cool listening rooms. Whether it be a recording studio or playback room. I don't see how this could ever get boring, lonely or anything but exciting. In fact we go so long it runs into the next day many times. I'm an artistic type and have always been around folks who couldn't wait to get to their listening room. Last night for example, four of us were sitting down in our outside common talking about what we were going to be listening to later. When we were done gossiping I'm pretty sure we were all grooving on our choices for the evening. I know downstairs was cause he was vibrating my floor :) How can music ever get lonely, one? And what's wrong with wanting to do nothing but music? HEA audiophiles many times sound like listening to music is a chore. I don't think I have had one day in my life where I have ever felt that way. Michael Green www.michaelgreenaudio.net |
@michaelgreenaudio
I agree with everything you’ve said and the reason is its the music that moves you and your crew. Thats cool. It also sounds like you live around others who share the passion and thats really cool.
You also have to admit that the extreme stereotype I was describing exists in the wild. When I lived in Southern California, I would occasionally swing by a dealer’s shop who will remain nameless. He or she(yeah right) would encourage people to bring their own music. How many (insert the stereotype of your choice) different high end enthusiasts does it take to figure out that the various nuances of a Diana Krall album where you can hear her breathe between phrases or the merits of the various pressings of Kind of Blue are not too relevant to most people. LOL
I recently visited a shop owned and operated by some 30 something bearded, workshirt wearing dudes spinning some vinyl by the Avett Brothers and there was plenty of craft beer being consumed and the conversation among the people, of both sexes, was off the hook. Now Im 55 years old, but I can easily pass for 52! It was inclusive and lively. There were tubes and solid state harmoneously living together like we could only dream of for the Middle East. No fuse talk, no cable talk, just music, humanity and fun. Not one of them was bemoaning the end of HEA, they were enjoying HEA but were doing so differently than their parents. Its no different than any other time in history, each generation believes the old rules don’t apply to them and they are right.
|
So it's not dead, it's just ... pining for the fjords.
|
What’s it called when it’s dead but still walking around? Oh, I know! A zombie! 🧟♂️ It’s kind if a zombie jamboree!
Back to back, belly to belly
I don't give a damn, I done dead already
Oho back to back, belly to belly
At the Zombie Jamboree
|
Hard to beat a dead parrot pining for the fjords. : )
|
If I may quote Frank Zappa on his take of the jazz scene a number of years ago; "It aint dead........ it just smells funny" |
Classical is better than JOHNNY WINTER? Yer readin' the wrong books. |
I am lucky to have both a dedicated listening room and a living room with music. The listening room includes seating for 5 people between the speakers and the ability to add more chair listening. (That’s why I don’t want speakers that are directional, they limit the enjoyment for friends in sharing the music). The living room system is simpler with a high end CD based system, a smaller stereo tube amp, a very size small pre-amp with a pair of Legacy Signature IIIs. All located at the far end of the room with about 8 listening seats and sound that emanates throughout the family room and dining room as well (good for parties with 25+ people).
I really enjoy sharing my music and do not talk about the equipment to non-audiophiles. The only thing they bring up is that LPs are reportedly superior to CDs and vice versa. I end that discussion by playing both to their satisfaction.
I was an avid stamp collector 45 years ago. Although I enjoy the artistry of engraved stamps, they are about as interesting to friends as showing them slide shows of my travels-in other words, it’ll quickly you to sleep.
My flat (not curved) 75" TV allows good viewing angles for friends and family of about five people when I share my video collection.
I like sharing rather than solitary listening/viewing audio and video; however, when my wife goes to bed at 12 am, I am free to enjoy my music til’ 1:30 am.
I purchased used quasi high end equipment up until I was 34 years old when I could afford things like a VPI turntable, SME IV arm and Dynavector MC cartridges. When I was in my 40s, I started purchasing more high end gear and cabling became important. In the last 20 years, I have now got two high end audio systems. The most important thing for me was buying records, lots and lots of records. Now I buy CDs, lots and lots of CDs because classical music boxed sets are so cheap and good jazz which generally remastered to my liking.
|
@crazyeddy, and Vivian Stanshall (Bonzo Dog Doo Dah Band) sang: "Jazz---delicious hot, disgusting cold". |
@michaelgreenaudio
@fleschler
Really nice posts! I really enjoyed all of them.
My view of the state of any of this is just through personal experience. I live in the midwest, so I don't know how that colors my perception. It certainly limits the number of B&M audio salons. As in zero in all of Kansas City. I grew up in Lawrence, KS, home of Kief's, which appears to have gone out of business after decades of success.
Music would appear to be thriving, both live and recorded. I could go to an excellent concert 150-200 nights a year if I wanted. No shortage of extremely talented musicians. Access to 40-50 millions songs at the touch of a button. More "audiophile" recordings available that I'd love to listen to than I'll ever get to, with easy mechanisms to catalog and retrieve.
Audio would appear to be thriving. I run into approximately the same number of people who are proud of and excited about their Sonos system, and there appear to be numerous competitors who have come out with compelling offerings. Bluetooth speakers, I guess the modern boombox in some ways, are everywhere, and people seem to enjoy carrying their libraries around on their phone and be able to play them back almost anywhere they are. It seems like music has become an important aspect of peoples' lives at least to the extent it was back in the day. And, while I sometimes offer up that you don't have to spend a lot to get good sound, I always tell people that what I'm most interested in is whether they like to listen to music, in any setting and playback method, and what they like.
HEA seems more or less as prevalent (or not) as ever, albeit the top end seems to have gone up in price by an order of magnitude. I enjoyed @ghasley in his description of the audiophile stereotype, but I hope he doesn't know too many people like that :-) I've never had a good friend that was into gear, and I've only ever had a few acquaintences who enjoyed it. So, today seems just like 30-40 years ago to me.
I recently moved to a new house that has a large, nice area in the lower level that I've set up exactly how I want it. I've never been a tweaker, but I do believe excellent gear sounds way better than modestly priced gear, and you need the space set it up so the physics can do their thing. It has a huge TV integrated into the setup, and everyone I show it to tells me it looks like a blast and they'd love to have it. None of them are saying that because of the specific gear. In any case, it's a completely different physical experience to listen on "the big rig". I don't know if it will ever convert anyone to say, "how do I get that", but that's not my goal. I like to listen to it, and honestly, while I love having my wife listen with me (and she does regularly), I don't want to talk for stretches of time, and I don't want to worry about whether it's too loud, etc. It's perfect for me because I really, really enjoy it all.
As long as music is an important aspect of peoples' lives, (HE) Audio will do just fine.
|
Hi ghasley "I agree with everything you’ve said and the reason is its the music that moves you and your crew. Thats cool. It also sounds like you live around others who share the passion and thats really cool." Yep it’s a cool ride! BTW your 55 going on 52, I’m 58 going on 152 :) I’ve put some serious miles on this body, I love getting older. There’s something about the building blocks of living that is very rewarding. We who have made it into our senior years are blessed. If we want we can look back, we can be in the now and we can see the future, if we don’t stay in the past too long. But, the greatest part is we can do any of these. I guess I look at the Audiophile thing as being a huge sea of hobbyist, all legit in their own hobby within the hobby, whether it be a little group of old plug & play farts or the masses. "No fuse talk, no cable talk, just music, humanity and fun." I like that statement too. I think all parts of the hobby have their place and their following. Some guys were born to debate and others can’t wait to get to that listening chair or take in a live event or let their fingers do the walking through the record shops or make Amazon rich, it’s all so much fun we could scream. We are all music kings and queens living in the greatest of times. My sound, job and life has always been based on the variables of audio, so I obviously think some of these "Fixed" or "Fix-it" tweaks are a little silly compared to having a Tunable system, but again everyone is welcome and deserving of their own hobby. In the future it’s all going to be variable so I guess these guys can knock themselves out with achieving change at the plug & play level. I am a little surprised that HEA got itself stuck in the revolving door for so long, letting the rest of the audio world catch up and pass them up, but that will all straighten itself out too. Hey, we either get to enjoy the spin or enjoy the ride into tomorrow and it’s a blast any way we travel. I like your post too ghasley. Good post kthomas and fleschler! One has got to love seeing the variety this hobby has. One thing for sure is while the HEA may be settling into a lower number (one fixed sound system) the Audiophile, and Videophile worlds are growing and have become every man’s (and women’s) home entertainment treasure. Michael Green www.michaelgreenaudio.net |
...”Remember when?... All it takes is hearing that first note on a higher quality sound system and you are hooked...”
Oh yeah.
That’s IT! (Lucy shouting as Schroeder angrily pounds Jingle Bells on the keyboard)
A crazy high school English teacher with a tube amp and Dahlquist DQ 10’s spinning a Charlie Parker record for me and my friends one night...I got it.
Finally hearing Jimmy Page’s electric guitar underneath the acoustic on “Ramble On.” Jeeze-Louise - ya mean that was ALWAYS there??? |
@michaelgreenaudio I feel both thankful happy to read everything you've put forth here over the past several weeks. Thank you for your perspectives and contributions
|
Thanks trelja It's been very nice reading the emails I've been getting from the members. And, nice reading the responses here on the forum directly. AudioGon forum mods deserve a thank you as well for letting me come up a share so much of the Tune with folks. I'm still very much pacing myself because I'm sharing some pretty bold ideas to folks who maybe haven't had the opportunity to dive into the variable side of the hobby all that much. I'm also looking forward to sharing more on the thread "the method of tuning". I'm getting folks emailing me after starting to tune and they range from "never knew this existed", "been tuning for years and love it", "how can this be happening"....and on. It's nice seeing listeners looking at this hobby practically and empirically. thanks again trelja Michael Green www.michaelgreenaudio.net |
@schubert Don't let the dumb majority get you down!
A friend of mine posted in FB last week that he was delighted his family had chipped in and bought him a new turntable. He was so proud, he posted a photo of the new gear. A fifty buck Crosley.
I met a guy with a decent hifi in a record store. He was so tight-lipped about discussing his kit, I gave up. You'd think the guy would jump at the chance to talk hobby. Sigh. |
Forget it Schubert. We live in an age where it is no shame to be stupid. Jack Nicklaus once said he won because he was too ashamed to lose. We can't all be him - well, none of us can be him, but you get my point. I hope. |
High End is Dead? I hope not if it stays real. Maybe dying because of BS like below. But many non-audiophiles I know who still love listening to my system, really look sideways when I show them some of the "snake oil" products that get peddled EG: fuses, mpingo discs ect ect. And that can’t be good to get new audiophiles interested in hiend audio. Cheers George |
IMO; anyone that uses the phrase "snake oil" to describe some item that may or may not provide a difference in sound in one's system has either not tried it or dismissed it because of bias based on an concept of "it can't possibly work". In the audiophile world there are not 2 systems that are alike, no two ears alike and interpretation alike. Who are you George, do you decide what we hear or don't hear? Your negative and narrow minded view does a disservice to the advancement to HEA. |
Who are you George, do you decide what we hear or don’t hear? Your negative and narrow minded view does a disservice to the advancement to HEA. Same back at ya, for not having the ability to be able to recognise many, not all "snake oil" products when it bites you on the ****. Anyone one that doesn’t believe there’s "snake oil" products in hi-end audio, and that's it's harmful to the integrity of hiend, is so gullible they can’t see the forest through the trees. Cheers George |
Come on George, that's just silly talk, expand your mind. Makes me think you might have an agenda ... |
Think what you like Dill. "Snake Oil" products are only harmful to credibility of hi-end audio. Makes me think you might have an agenda ... Yes I’d love to rid the "snake oil" shysters from Hi-end audio. Just yesterday I read about a $3k 1mt, $5k 2mt, $7k 3mt iec power leads, really!!!!!. Cheers George |
And they have quarter million dollar cars, 20 million dollar yachts, 25 million dollar jets, 50 million dollar homes, really!!!!!.
The "snake oil" mantra of the (we know best) naysayers is getting ever so tiring. Go pick on the prescription drug companies, new furniture companies, oil companies and most of the crap they hawk on TV.
Most that inhabit HEA are intelligent people and can make good decisions based on "real life experience" . If all this wire & tweek stuff is bunk, it wouldn't still be here 30+ years later if it didn't provide results. IMO, what is all boils down to is money. If one determines it is too expensive, it must be "snake oil" and I think that is a false conclusion. |
Really funny George
Might have known YOU would not believe in power cords either.
Guess you have not tested them and do not need to eh?
What with your EE experience and all.
Say no more guvnor! |
George
You cannot see beyond your very narrow viewpoint and regurgitate the same tired and worn out panoply of trite all day every day.
This forum does not NEED your constant whining wheedling contributions, if you can call them that.
Do not expect this post to stay here long...lol but I feel better now.
Time for more ☕ |
Let’s see, who started this thread, anyway? Oh, it was madavid0. Nevermind....😛
|
Mention "Snake Oil' in audio, and here come the "Awesome Foursome" protecting what??? They are starting to look all too obvious.
Cheers George |
What are the icons of snake oil? What are the tweaks that really bring out the hostility from the naysayers and pseudo scientists? What are the Top Ten? Here’s my list in no particular order,
Silver Rainbow Foil
The Red x Pen
Mpingo disc
The Intelligent Chip
Demagnetizers for CDs and cables
Schumann Frequency Generator
The Teleportation Tweak
Photos in the Freezer Tweak
Wire directionality
Fuses in AC circuits
|
Whoa Lone Ranger
Took you a while
Did you lose Tonto?
Was that the problem? |
|
2psyop
No I do not believe so |
Of course not. That was Bo. The Tru Fi dude or whatever. Fremer over at Stereophile also reviewed another expensive Audioquest power cord recently.
|
"
the eccentric stamp collector is likely mourning that this new generation has lost its desire to send communiques ..."
Stamp and especially coin collectors probably don't care if there are new ways of communicating or if the U.S. Mint is minting new coins, they're content with the pleasure and satisfaction their collection brings because of the rarity and value in their collection. Stamps and coins appreciate with time. Same can't be said of HEA gear.
Trust me -- we ain't mourning. |
Wrong, I was a big stamp collector until the 1980s. I loved the engraved stamps for their artistic merit. Now, especially U.S. stamps, are photographs with self-adhesive backs, printed with a row of plate numbers which make buying sheets rather than blocks of old, collectables. A sheet often has four or more pictures on it rather than a continuous loop of engravings. I don't want to be a sheet collector and don't value the mere photo stamps versus the personally engraved stamps. |
@fleschler are you in mourning? Maybe you should switch to coins. I've sold most of what I had collected (primarily U.S. coins and large currency.) Helped pay for my audio rig. I have a few stamps but quite honestly, I could never get into stamps. Like you, I enjoy collecting for the artistic qualities. I think coins are miniature pieces of artwork, especially coinage between 1700 - 1922. Some coins and bills (educational series notes) can be quite breathtaking. |
Thank you. I'm not in mourning over the situation as I am primarily into music, with 42,000 records and CDs as well as a mastering engineer for local orchestra and choirs. Music is my primary avocation since I was 3 years old. Coins are also nice but there are so many commemorative issues that I lost interest in collecting them decades ago. |
flescher
42,000 records and CDs! How do you store and access them? Only have about 2500 CDs and find it is necessary to spend some time with organization -- even though they are all ripped in JRiver. Hardly ever need to access the original source.
You must have a warehouse somewhere. Or, perhaps, some hired musicologists to help you with playback. |
I built my house with a dedicated music room 25' X 23' with an 8' X 6' equipment alcove. Unfortunately, I kept buying records and CDs since 1993 when I moved in. I built in seismic reinforced shelving along most of three walls (worked great in the 1994 Northridge earthquake), I have 10 drawers from CAN-AM for CD storage and several racks on the walls for additional storage (overage). I also have about 2,500 LPs and 2,000 78s in a storage building I installed in 1998. So, yes, I have several 1000s too many records. I sold 18,000 records in the past. I have a rule for myself, if I don't potentially want to hear a recording three times annually, out it goes. Those 2,000 78s are for sale for $1,000. They weigh a ton.
As to knowing where my recordings are, over 75% are in alphabetical and/or label order by music type (rock, opera, vocalists, pop, jazz, instrumentalists, etc). Also, about 70% are listed alphabetically on computer files in order per music type. Now that I have so many business responsibilities, I have less time to edit my computer files. I just spend 1.5 hours nightly listening to music and whenever I can grab more time, such as on weekends.
Actually, I have friends who have warehouses filled with records. Tom Null (owner Varese Sarabande/Newport Classics) has over a million stored nearby, the late Rod Mckuen (who hired a staff for his huge collection), the late Music Man Murray and another late collector-seller in San Bernardino had over a million records each (their collections were purchased by the Brazillian collector who has at least 8 million records).
My friends who are mastering engineers Kevin Gray, Steve Hoffman and Robert Pincus should keep at least a carton of each of their remasterings in a warehouse. It would have made them rich if they did-note the prices of DCC LPs and CDs alone. |
Fascinating. Great to hear a behind-the-scenes inventory. Myself, enjoy the capability of taking my entire collection from summer to winter places on a Crucial 2tb drive. But we all must be a little envious of your hoard. |
flescher: Meant to add that you can add your own categories in JRiver in order to organize your collection (called a Library here). So, I define each rip with the qualifiers "genre" and "period" and can then use the advanced menu creation ability to search on these items nested in any order. So, if you are in a mood for romantic music, you go to that menu then choose from the subheadings for "Orchestral," "Choral," et al. The picture of the albums available then appears with all of the track info. Works great for large collections and allows you to custom tailor your collection according to your particular listening habits. No matter how orderly my CDs are grouped, I still could not access them in this friendly a fashion. |
I cannot spend time ripping my LPs and 78s. I have a life other than audio. I could rip my 7,000 CDs but I don't want to bother doing that either. I have friends who primarily play only digital hi-res rips and streaming. One has over 350,000 music files and sells high end audio. Thanks for your advice but I really enjoy holding the LP/78/CD in my hands and reading CD booklets. For younger people with smaller collections ripping to a digital file can be rewarding in simplicity in finding music and portability. |
Just met a guy working for Best Buy (computers) who said he ripped his 1500 CDs to a computer drive and sold his CDs. He hopes to one day purchase LPs and a turntable when he can afford it. |
The younger generations just cant justify their money on High End Audio. Most prefer travelling, living luxurious life styles, buying expensive clothing going to parties and expensive nights out etc etc. House Prices are going up, Salaries are not following the middle class is shrinking etc etc.
|
Ronald Reagan sold trickle down economics and the rich became richer at the expense of the middle class; now there is no middle class and poverty is working it's way up the ladder of success, but no one is paying any attention until it reaches them.
|
The middle class is getting smaller, because more are moving up than down.
From a purely monetary perspective, High End Audio has more potential customers. Phantom is correct, that people are making different choices with their income than Audio. Same as it ever was.
|
The exact opposite is taking place .
|
phantom_av"The younger generations just cant justify their money on High End Audio. Most prefer travelling, living luxurious life styles"
These younger people do not have homes or jobs or lives away from their mommies and daddies so of course they are not interested in HEA they have not yet matured even if they are already old enough to be out on they're own. |
The data is pretty clear, more people can "afford" audio gear than ever before. I would submit more people are listening to music than ever before at a higher quality level to boot. The problem is that entry level gear is so available and affordable and the general Audiogon assumption is that it isn't as good as the gear we had when we were young and therefore it doesn't qualify, which is a suspect position to take.
EVERY person with a smartphone today can access all of their music wherever they are. An alien concept just 20 years ago. Thirty/forty years ago there was a large space commitment necessary and today there isn't. Just because some here don't believe an iphone feeding a dac streaming Tidal into active speakers doesn't qualify as high end doesn't make it so. Different form factors. I would argue that the iphone setup done right is superior to much of the average gear from the previous era. Let's remember, the average system in 1980 was a receiver with a marginal TT and a cassette deck using lampcord feeding Cerwin Vegas or JBL L100's or some other similar setup. FM radio was a primary driver. By the way, we can thank radio for the dynamic compression we all abhor.
Our community needs to snap out of it! The new generation is listening to music in a variety of ways on some decent gear. Its growing not shrinking. Look at Schiit Audio, Kef actives, Kanto speakers, the list goes on. New speaker manufacturers pop up seemingly every week and tube gear production is expanding. Maybe I'm just more open to new ideas than others even though I'm hardly young but I joke about it often that the days of an audio show of 70 year old white guys debating cable geometry SHOULD be behind us. That won't attract anyone to our hobby. If this hits a little too close to home, no offense intended.
Folks, cars are better today, appliances are better today, fuel consumption with virtually every energy using device is better today and the days of needing a repairman to come to the house to make your tv, stereo, fridge or washing machine work are long behind us. Its ok to appreciate the good old days but they weren't all that good when you objectively evaluate them. Listen, I appreciate my audio gear, its fun, benefits from a little tweaking (or so I keep telling myself) and I am a tube die hard but there are a few fellow audiogoners who enjoy sitting in their basements, alone in a dedicated room with a setup requiring instructions on the order of turn on/turn off to avoid disaster and 1 seat suitable to listen from.
Oh, and the class warfare BS is getting kind of old don't you think? I could make a case that there has never been a larger middle class in the history of the world than right now but if you feel you have personally been slipping down the economic ladder then I could never convince you anyway. 40 years ago, an average laborer felt middle class because they weren't destitute. |
Less and less funding for public education.
Music classes no longer standard in public schools.
Musical instrument lessons not longer offered in K-8.
Fewer and fewer bands touring up and down the coasts stopping at local venues. Live concerts are a rarity.
Young people playing video games online with their friends with soundtracks that satisfy their musical needs.
I also blame it on the music industry. No longer do we have visionaries like Ahmet Erdogan of Atlantic who embraced new music and fostered an environment of creativity. Look at what those idiot white shirts at Capital did to Beatles' and Beach Boys' music. If it werent for the sheer talent of those musical geniuses, that company would have killed any creativity.
It's harder for a younger person to have the time, inclination and desire to explore a hobby with all the competing forces in this era.
I'll keep carrying the baton and holding the torch high, but even that won't help change funadamental forces that diminish new interest and participation over time.
|
|
