High End is Dead?

Cant quite understand why posting these idiotic topics excites the OP so much. It is however my hope that he someday leaves his parents basement to discover there is sunshine and beauty outside to behold. That there are jobs to be landed and experiences out there waiting for him. He will then discover that playing video games all day and watching tosh.o all night isnt a life at all nor a career. Audio is either expensive to a particular person or it isnt.

in terms of real dollars, decent audio is better today than in the golden era of audio while also being less expensive. At the end of the day though, the OP is a troll and is probably back in the warming embrace of his parents basement thinking of ways to be relevant....unsuccessfully I might add.

Thats my point. In 1962 someone who purchased a hifi spent real money, sometimes many months of free cash flow, whereas today you can get a decent system for comparative peanuts. Additionally, gear today is pretty darn reliable. 

@gnaudio thanks for your input. Your three posts in total with all three on this thread give you a great deal of credibility. We have two issues here, first issue is that the OP and his alter ego (you) are trolls and again, I cant for the life of me figure out what jollies one gets out of trolling.

The second issue is the adoption of audio as a hobby, in what form and are the costs reasonable. As @theothergreg so wisely points out, people live differently and spend their money differently but nonetheless, virtually everyone has the means to consume music in their own way. Yesterdays transistor radio and home hifi set evolved into the more limited home hifi and expanded car audio set. Today, virtually everyone can consume music and enjoy reasonable fidelity. Smartphones are not a bad entry point for most and for many, its enough. The idea that a high fidelity system has to look like a rack system and the more pieces of gear the better is no longer a valid data point. Physical spaces used to be required for the exchange of knowledge and for hifi, that used to mean the dealers physical location was the forum. People dropped by and talked, demoed, listened and gained knowledge through the process. Today that happens in the virtual world and its only natural that the purchasing cycle follows suit.

All of those people that @theothergreg mentioned who are out enjoying the outdoors are also carrying with them the ability to listen to music and more than likely have virtually every music title at their fingertips. Thats a concept that no one dreamed of just 20 years ago. I still remember the boombox and what a craze the mixtape became. Then comes hip hop and the recent Pulitzer prize awarded Kendrick Lamar. Things change, they expand and contract but mourning that consumers are consuming music differently than they once did in the past doesnt make a whole lot of sense in an historical perspective.

Owning a home or not only changes the required form factor for musical reproduction and you cant get more portable than a smartphone and a pair of phones. Also, people are and should be more portable today. San Francisco IS expensive. Silicon Valley IS expensive. Central Park West IS expensive. Certain places always have been and always will be. People will eventually move their businesses and their lives to places that are less so because it will make sense. Look at the migrations taking place among those capable of earning their livings anyplace...Detroit, there are plenty of examples.

In summary, the consumption of music drives the form factor and if you yearn for a large shrine to the audio systems of old, those days arent coming back. The world is virtual and the dealers and audio markets are too. Thats not going to change, its going to accellerate.

@madavid0

“Anyone who says high end is changing to personal audio is just saying that the high end is dead. Cell phones sound like CRAP. Modern pop music is TRASH. I have a pretty good portable player and it merely sucks LESS.”

Personal audio in the 1960’s was a transitor radio with a single bad speaker with a single earpiece and it was AM only. Personal audio is light years better today!!!  Listen to Astell & Kern products or a Chord Hugo 2 fed wirelessly or wired from an iphone lossless and then exclaim that personal audio sucks. While it isn’t my preferred method of listening, it sounds darn good.  While I don’t like all pop music today either, I didn’t like it all 10, 20 or 30 years ago. I remember not so fondly that Helen Reddy, Tony Orlando and Dawn and the Captain and Tennielle(sp) not only had hit records but moreover, they were given weekly 1 hour network TV variety shows as well. The sky isn’t falling just because people listen to music differently than you think they should. Heck, I survived disco and remember well the record burning night at Comiskey Park in Chicago!

“Meanwhile I have a Technics network integrated up for 50% retail -- not a SINGLE response, even to tire-kick or to lowball. Is $2k a bridge too far? SAD!”

I’m sure the Technics network integrated you are trying to sell sounds great, probably better than the majority of integrateds from just a few years ago but I can’t imagine there are alot of people signing on to Audiogon searching for that particular type of gear. Don’t go looking for an Omega watch on a Rolex forum or a Porsche forum looking for an Opel or a BMW forum looking for an Audi or a Harley Davidson forum looking for a Ducati. I know it will have some value to someone but likely not any takers on Audiogon. No offense intended but a Technics dealer wouldnt give you 50% on trade even if you bought it from them. Im not trying to denigrate you, your gear or Technics.

I started out with a Realistic receiver in the mid 1970’s with matching speakers but I still remember the first time I played the Doors “Riders on the Storm”. Im sure it sucked to someone who had better gear but to me, it was transformational. It was better still at my friends house whose father had a McIntosh tube setup and massive Bozak speakers. Its transformational still today on my Audio Research and Wilson audio setup but if I were walking through a mall and they were playing The Doors, it would still be transformational. Man, its about the music and if you think you are going to convert someone to this hobby because of the gear then yes, high end audio will die. I dont happen to subscribe to that however.

When the young people are talking about the music that moves them whether its Meyer Hawthorne or Kendrick Lamar or Sugar Ray or whatever, cue it up and play it for them! Ask them what it is about the music that evokes and promotes thought and then the conversation inevitably shifts to the question “why does this sound so much better/different/clear/smooth than they have heard before”. Its the music that makes the gear relevant not the gear that makes the music relevant. If you vehemently disagree with that statement all is likely lost.

Most of ads on Audiogon is for old and/or off-brand gear for less than $1000. Wilsons and Magicos are a tiny minority of listings and they're all from dealers. In reality no one is buying high end. I went to AXPONA this year, and I didn't see many (any?) people discussing a purchase with the dealers -- come in, listen for a minute, than leave with a pamphlet.

@madavid0 

Like many of us who start out on this site, you have been given the benefit of the doubt repeatedly with your posts and the "conclusions" you make based on incomplete or faulty evidence sited. High end is doing very well but it is doing very well by doing it differently than in the past. Your quote above is respectfully off the mark. What is off brand? The biggest flawed conclusion you draw is since "nothing" is for sale on Audiogon, High End is doomed. Maybe its my "poor understanding" of economics but if not much is for sale that interests you I would submit that maybe those items find satisfied users in the new retail market (they keep the gear) or the used gear that does come available sells quickly. The absence of inventory/items for sale actually indicates a healthy market...not just with audio but with the economy in general. There was alot of high quality gear for sale for peanuts during the recession of 2008-11 but did that make High End healthy or no? Because you walked around Axpona and no one was hauling home the show gear in your presence means High End is in trouble? I don't go to shows to buy, I go to shows to research and hear alot of different gear in one place during a concentrated time frame.

Now to the threads you start, the following are just the past 5 you have started. High end is dead? Schiit not that good? Isolation stands: Snakeoil? Integrateds: Why do they all SUCK? Mapleshade isolation: Does nothing? 

But if I only stop with your last 5 threads started, I would have missed out on these beauties: Cartidges: Complete Scam? Synergistic Research: Scam?  What is your agenda and why the negative posturing and fear mongering?

High end isn't dead just because you didn't see a guy tossing cash on the floor in front of a dealer at Axpona any more than Schiit is bad because it didn't measure up, in your opinion, to an Esoteric stack in the next room. Everything is relative.  I'll go back to my original opinion that while you might not be an actual troll, you have troll-like tendencies as displayed by your repeated introduction of thread topics similar to a 7th grade coach who also is forced to teach a civics class and today's topic is economics. Peace.

@audiopoint VERY well said. I would add that the next generation of music consumers may have no desire to have multiple racks of gear in a dedicated listening room shut off to the world. A multi box shrine with its sundry rituals to some aspiriation that no one else aspires to can get pretty lonely. There are likely stamp collectors sitting in some dusty, lonely room wondering why no one shares their passion, buggy whip collectors are likely feeling it too! But using these same paralells, the eccentric stamp collector is likely mourning that this new generation has lost its desire to send communiques when in fact, there are new ways to communicate. Buggy whip collectors mourn the apparent lack of desire for propulsion by the new generation when in fact there are new ways to motivate propulsion.

Humans find new and more efficient methods to accomplish their goals. Are they always better? It depends on whats important to you and what you value. Is it the trip or the destination? Many felt the world came to an end when the great transoceanic ships were being displaced by air travel. They assumed incorrectly that everyone thought the important part of the exercise was the journey and for others it was the destination. Do you use your gear to listen to music or is music the necessary component so you may listen to and play with your gear?!?!?

Music will always be consumed by man, it just might not be consumed by a solitary old white guy closed off in a converted garage (while his ‘88 Camry bakes outside with peeling paint) with padded walls debating electronically with distant strangers the merits of a blue fuse or a black fuse in the power supply to the power supply of their turntable motor. If this statement hits too close to home then you might consider getting up out of your specially crafted chair that is both comfortable and yet not so absorptive as to damage the soundstage of that 1958 recording bootlegged out of that acoustically challenged lower Manhattan basement club of a heroin addicted clarinetist playing the 100th version of some show tune. The sun is probably shining outside and there is an amazing hike waiting just for you! There are new friends to make and socialize with and dine with and share the joys of life and music will likely be a part of some of that experience. The multi box shrine will be there when you get back.

@michaelgreenaudio

I agree with everything you’ve said and the reason is its the music that moves you and your crew. Thats cool. It also sounds like you live around others who share the passion and thats really cool.

You also have to admit that the extreme stereotype I was describing exists in the wild. When I lived in Southern California, I would occasionally swing by a dealer’s shop who will remain nameless. He or she(yeah right) would encourage people to bring their own music. How many (insert the stereotype of your choice) different high end enthusiasts does it take to figure out that the various nuances of a Diana Krall album where you can hear her breathe between phrases or the merits of the various pressings of Kind of Blue are not too relevant to most people. LOL

I recently visited a shop owned and operated by some 30 something bearded, workshirt wearing dudes spinning some vinyl by the Avett Brothers and there was plenty of craft beer being consumed and the conversation among the people, of both sexes, was off the hook. Now Im 55 years old, but I can easily pass for 52! It was inclusive and lively. There were tubes and solid state harmoneously living together like we could only dream of for the Middle East. No fuse talk, no cable talk, just music, humanity and fun. Not one of them was bemoaning the end of HEA, they were enjoying HEA but were doing so differently than their parents. Its no different than any other time in history, each generation believes the old rules don’t apply to them and they are right.

The data is pretty clear, more people can "afford" audio gear than ever before. I would submit more people are listening to music than ever before at a higher quality level to boot.  The problem is that entry level gear is so available and affordable and the general Audiogon assumption is that it isn't as good as the gear we had when we were young and therefore it doesn't qualify, which is a suspect position to take.

EVERY person with a smartphone today can access all of their music wherever they are.  An alien concept just 20 years ago.  Thirty/forty years ago there was a large space commitment necessary and today there isn't. Just because some here don't believe an iphone feeding a dac streaming Tidal into active speakers doesn't qualify as high end doesn't make it so. Different form factors. I would argue that the iphone setup done right is superior to much of the average gear from the previous era. Let's remember, the average system in 1980 was a receiver with a marginal TT and a cassette deck using lampcord feeding Cerwin Vegas or JBL L100's or some other similar setup. FM radio was a primary driver. By the way, we can thank radio for the dynamic compression we all abhor.

Our community needs to snap out of it! The new generation is listening to music in a variety of ways on some decent gear. Its growing not shrinking. Look at Schiit Audio, Kef actives, Kanto speakers, the list goes on. New speaker manufacturers pop up seemingly every week and tube gear production is expanding. Maybe I'm just more open to new ideas than others even though I'm hardly young but I joke about it often that the days of an audio show of 70 year old white guys debating cable geometry SHOULD be behind us. That won't attract anyone to our hobby. If this hits a little too close to home, no offense intended.

Folks, cars are better today, appliances are better today, fuel consumption with virtually every energy using device is better today and the days of needing a repairman to come to the house to make your tv, stereo, fridge or washing machine work are long behind us. Its ok to appreciate the good old days but they weren't all that good when you objectively evaluate them. Listen, I appreciate my audio gear, its fun, benefits from a little tweaking (or so I keep telling myself) and I am a tube die hard but there are a few fellow audiogoners who enjoy sitting in their basements, alone in a dedicated room with a setup requiring instructions on the order of turn on/turn off to avoid disaster and 1 seat suitable to listen from.

Oh, and the class warfare BS is getting kind of old don't you think? I could make a case that there has never been a larger middle class in the history of the world than right now but if you feel you have personally been slipping down the economic ladder then I could never convince you anyway. 40 years ago, an average laborer felt middle class because they weren't destitute.