JPK...you are spot on.
High End is Dead?
Browsing used audio sites such as Audiogon and the Marts, high end gear ads are dominated by several dealers. Non-dealer ads are usually people trying to push 15+ year old off-brand junk at 60-70% of MSRP (when they were new). They don't sell anything. You could slash Wilsons, Magicos, etc, 50% off retail and no one will buy them.
No one buys if it costs more than 1k. It's not that they're not interested -- the ads get plenty of views. It's that the asking prices are just way over the ability of buyers to pay. Fact is, if you see a high end piece for sale it's probably by a dealer, often times trying to push it at 15% off retail because its a trade in, but also often they are taking a good chunk off the price 30, 40 sometimes 50% off. They can be famous brands with a million positive reviews. No buyers.
Are we just poor, and that's all there is to it?
No one buys if it costs more than 1k. It's not that they're not interested -- the ads get plenty of views. It's that the asking prices are just way over the ability of buyers to pay. Fact is, if you see a high end piece for sale it's probably by a dealer, often times trying to push it at 15% off retail because its a trade in, but also often they are taking a good chunk off the price 30, 40 sometimes 50% off. They can be famous brands with a million positive reviews. No buyers.
Are we just poor, and that's all there is to it?
161 responses Add your response
1. People do care about equipment. Perhaps more than the room, or even music, so puts all manufacterers immediately on the hot seat. 2. People who are successful in the audio business are working hard and have to play on the world stage because only something like 20% of revenue comes from their home country. 3. Salesman have always gotten a bad reputation for only caring about those that will make them money. They naturally weed out the time robbers but I’m sure make some mistakes. The few that embrace the web and play it well are rewarded. 4. Reviewers seem highly networked with manufacterers and are selling opinion on top of that. They have an audience too. Seems hard to build a career on this and I wonder how many live on this paycheck or is it a hobby? Again those that embrace technology seem to do well. Umpire or pimp? or a weird combination? 5. The market will decide who has the right mix of talent and accumen to survive. I’m sure some of these guys have generational wealth and others came from more successful careers and shifted passions. They must balance their own books and figure it out. |
1.people now just don’t care for equipment. 2.audiophile business is full of snake oil salesmen(cd and record demagnetizers)and who can forget the king of them all ,george tice and his tice clock. 3.audiophile stores are unfriendly I’ve walked into many types of hi end store(jewelry,furniture automobile)and have been treated with some type of respect , but rarely at high end store, i’ve been sneered at and even insulted.there is no industry that goes out of its was to insult existing customers and turn off potential new customers. 4.magazines, blame the reviewers they are mostly bored geeks who only want to review outrageous expensive exotic equipment.turning off 99.99% of the buying public. 5 the companies,do we really need another 10 watt 20K amplifier?? companies have completely lost touch with reality.who the hell can afford this stuff ??and most of it is very unreliable to begin with. one website says the audiophile industry is $200M a year not impressive even for a company let alone an entire industry. |
My view of Millennial and Gen Z types around the internet such as Reddit and Massdrop is that there IS an interest in audiophile audio, but they are actively antagonistic towards high-end audio. So the interest in better audio is there but they have a hard stop at spending significant sums of money. It seems like a groupthink exercise in defining reality in terms that is beneficial for them. For example they will state that one DAC sounds no different than another, or if there are differences they are minor. If challenged to visit an audio dealer or a hi-fi show they will respond they don’t need to because it’s all snake-oil. At first glance it seems like the simply don’t want to believe that better quality gear produces better audio, but that’s also not true; they do accept that better quality gear provides better audio, but that only goes as far as a few hundred dollars. So it seems they actually do believe in high-end audio, only that the high-end must include everyone on the internet’s ability to pay for it. A very self-serving community view. |
People have been saying that for 50 years. Take a look at the major audio review sites and audio shows, make note of all the high-end manufacturers from around the world. It is clear that high-end is not dead. Look at the revival of records, reel to reel tape and I am seeing a new surge in cassette interest. All are peeking the interest of the younger crowd, planting the seeds for upgrades in the future. |
High End Audio as we know it is dead because it was primarily a Baby Boomer and Gen X phenomenon. Millenials and Gen Z have no interest in it. So going forward, the only market segments that are doing well are DAC's, headphones and earbuds - for the younger generations - and the ultra high end, for the boomers cashing in their retirements funds. Everything in-between these two extremes is being decimated, and its not going to get any better, or return to how it was. |
'If this statement hits too close to home then you might consider getting up out of your specially crafted chair that is both comfortable and yet not so absorptive as to damage the soundstage of that 1958 recording bootlegged out of that acoustically challenged lower Manhattan basement club of a heroin addicted clarinetist playing the 100th version of some show tune.' Ouch! |
I forget the actual product, but there's a recent commercial for an app where this Gen Z actor is simply hitting buttons on the tablet screen to create a tune. Said buttons are marked "Bass", "Strings", Vocals", etc. and they all correlate to an existing backbeat, again chosen from a menu of backbeats. The whole thing (on the commercial at least) sounds engaging and catchy, even as it's just a mouse in a musical maze bragging about which direction she's choosing. With music becoming more and more codified and ephemeral, it's no surprise HEA is starting to age out. |
I don’t think HEA will disappear, but I do think less people care about it than a generation ago. When I was in school in the seventies there were a lot of people preoccupied with having a good system. Check in with most of those people fifteen years later and and they had moved on from their starter systems but with the preoccupation with work and family, rarely listen to their floor standing speakers. Check in with them 10 years later and the floorstanders have either been replaced by “Lifestyle Products” or nothing at all. The younger Generation uses earbuds. All of them are appalled when they find out that my system may have cost me 30 K to assemble, and around this site that sum is what people spend on power cords. So the HEA will persist, but probably by trying to extract ever more revenue from the True Believers and ignoring the rest, leading to a further bifurcation between audiophiles and the rest of the world |
Less and less funding for public education. Music classes no longer standard in public schools. Musical instrument lessons not longer offered in K-8. Fewer and fewer bands touring up and down the coasts stopping at local venues. Live concerts are a rarity. Young people playing video games online with their friends with soundtracks that satisfy their musical needs. I also blame it on the music industry. No longer do we have visionaries like Ahmet Erdogan of Atlantic who embraced new music and fostered an environment of creativity. Look at what those idiot white shirts at Capital did to Beatles' and Beach Boys' music. If it werent for the sheer talent of those musical geniuses, that company would have killed any creativity. It's harder for a younger person to have the time, inclination and desire to explore a hobby with all the competing forces in this era. I'll keep carrying the baton and holding the torch high, but even that won't help change funadamental forces that diminish new interest and participation over time. |
The data is pretty clear, more people can "afford" audio gear than ever before. I would submit more people are listening to music than ever before at a higher quality level to boot. The problem is that entry level gear is so available and affordable and the general Audiogon assumption is that it isn't as good as the gear we had when we were young and therefore it doesn't qualify, which is a suspect position to take. EVERY person with a smartphone today can access all of their music wherever they are. An alien concept just 20 years ago. Thirty/forty years ago there was a large space commitment necessary and today there isn't. Just because some here don't believe an iphone feeding a dac streaming Tidal into active speakers doesn't qualify as high end doesn't make it so. Different form factors. I would argue that the iphone setup done right is superior to much of the average gear from the previous era. Let's remember, the average system in 1980 was a receiver with a marginal TT and a cassette deck using lampcord feeding Cerwin Vegas or JBL L100's or some other similar setup. FM radio was a primary driver. By the way, we can thank radio for the dynamic compression we all abhor. Our community needs to snap out of it! The new generation is listening to music in a variety of ways on some decent gear. Its growing not shrinking. Look at Schiit Audio, Kef actives, Kanto speakers, the list goes on. New speaker manufacturers pop up seemingly every week and tube gear production is expanding. Maybe I'm just more open to new ideas than others even though I'm hardly young but I joke about it often that the days of an audio show of 70 year old white guys debating cable geometry SHOULD be behind us. That won't attract anyone to our hobby. If this hits a little too close to home, no offense intended. Folks, cars are better today, appliances are better today, fuel consumption with virtually every energy using device is better today and the days of needing a repairman to come to the house to make your tv, stereo, fridge or washing machine work are long behind us. Its ok to appreciate the good old days but they weren't all that good when you objectively evaluate them. Listen, I appreciate my audio gear, its fun, benefits from a little tweaking (or so I keep telling myself) and I am a tube die hard but there are a few fellow audiogoners who enjoy sitting in their basements, alone in a dedicated room with a setup requiring instructions on the order of turn on/turn off to avoid disaster and 1 seat suitable to listen from. Oh, and the class warfare BS is getting kind of old don't you think? I could make a case that there has never been a larger middle class in the history of the world than right now but if you feel you have personally been slipping down the economic ladder then I could never convince you anyway. 40 years ago, an average laborer felt middle class because they weren't destitute. |
phantom_av"The younger generations just cant justify their money on High End Audio. Most prefer travelling, living luxurious life styles" These younger people do not have homes or jobs or lives away from their mommies and daddies so of course they are not interested in HEA they have not yet matured even if they are already old enough to be out on they're own. |
I cannot spend time ripping my LPs and 78s. I have a life other than audio. I could rip my 7,000 CDs but I don't want to bother doing that either. I have friends who primarily play only digital hi-res rips and streaming. One has over 350,000 music files and sells high end audio. Thanks for your advice but I really enjoy holding the LP/78/CD in my hands and reading CD booklets. For younger people with smaller collections ripping to a digital file can be rewarding in simplicity in finding music and portability. |
flescher: Meant to add that you can add your own categories in JRiver in order to organize your collection (called a Library here). So, I define each rip with the qualifiers "genre" and "period" and can then use the advanced menu creation ability to search on these items nested in any order. So, if you are in a mood for romantic music, you go to that menu then choose from the subheadings for "Orchestral," "Choral," et al. The picture of the albums available then appears with all of the track info. Works great for large collections and allows you to custom tailor your collection according to your particular listening habits. No matter how orderly my CDs are grouped, I still could not access them in this friendly a fashion. |
I built my house with a dedicated music room 25' X 23' with an 8' X 6' equipment alcove. Unfortunately, I kept buying records and CDs since 1993 when I moved in. I built in seismic reinforced shelving along most of three walls (worked great in the 1994 Northridge earthquake), I have 10 drawers from CAN-AM for CD storage and several racks on the walls for additional storage (overage). I also have about 2,500 LPs and 2,000 78s in a storage building I installed in 1998. So, yes, I have several 1000s too many records. I sold 18,000 records in the past. I have a rule for myself, if I don't potentially want to hear a recording three times annually, out it goes. Those 2,000 78s are for sale for $1,000. They weigh a ton. As to knowing where my recordings are, over 75% are in alphabetical and/or label order by music type (rock, opera, vocalists, pop, jazz, instrumentalists, etc). Also, about 70% are listed alphabetically on computer files in order per music type. Now that I have so many business responsibilities, I have less time to edit my computer files. I just spend 1.5 hours nightly listening to music and whenever I can grab more time, such as on weekends. Actually, I have friends who have warehouses filled with records. Tom Null (owner Varese Sarabande/Newport Classics) has over a million stored nearby, the late Rod Mckuen (who hired a staff for his huge collection), the late Music Man Murray and another late collector-seller in San Bernardino had over a million records each (their collections were purchased by the Brazillian collector who has at least 8 million records). My friends who are mastering engineers Kevin Gray, Steve Hoffman and Robert Pincus should keep at least a carton of each of their remasterings in a warehouse. It would have made them rich if they did-note the prices of DCC LPs and CDs alone. |
flescher 42,000 records and CDs! How do you store and access them? Only have about 2500 CDs and find it is necessary to spend some time with organization -- even though they are all ripped in JRiver. Hardly ever need to access the original source. You must have a warehouse somewhere. Or, perhaps, some hired musicologists to help you with playback. |
Thank you. I'm not in mourning over the situation as I am primarily into music, with 42,000 records and CDs as well as a mastering engineer for local orchestra and choirs. Music is my primary avocation since I was 3 years old. Coins are also nice but there are so many commemorative issues that I lost interest in collecting them decades ago. |
@fleschler are you in mourning? Maybe you should switch to coins. I've sold most of what I had collected (primarily U.S. coins and large currency.) Helped pay for my audio rig. I have a few stamps but quite honestly, I could never get into stamps. Like you, I enjoy collecting for the artistic qualities. I think coins are miniature pieces of artwork, especially coinage between 1700 - 1922. Some coins and bills (educational series notes) can be quite breathtaking. |
Wrong, I was a big stamp collector until the 1980s. I loved the engraved stamps for their artistic merit. Now, especially U.S. stamps, are photographs with self-adhesive backs, printed with a row of plate numbers which make buying sheets rather than blocks of old, collectables. A sheet often has four or more pictures on it rather than a continuous loop of engravings. I don't want to be a sheet collector and don't value the mere photo stamps versus the personally engraved stamps. |
"
the eccentric stamp collector is likely mourning that this new generation has lost its desire to send communiques ..." Stamp and especially coin collectors probably don't care if there are new ways of communicating or if the U.S. Mint is minting new coins, they're content with the pleasure and satisfaction their collection brings because of the rarity and value in their collection. Stamps and coins appreciate with time. Same can't be said of HEA gear. Trust me -- we ain't mourning. |
Is Madavido the guy who posted these threads https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/review-audioquest-hurricane-part-1 https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/review-audioquest-hurricane-part-2 |
What are the icons of snake oil? What are the tweaks that really bring out the hostility from the naysayers and pseudo scientists? What are the Top Ten? Here’s my list in no particular order, Silver Rainbow Foil The Red x Pen Mpingo disc The Intelligent Chip Demagnetizers for CDs and cables Schumann Frequency Generator The Teleportation Tweak Photos in the Freezer Tweak Wire directionality Fuses in AC circuits |
George You cannot see beyond your very narrow viewpoint and regurgitate the same tired and worn out panoply of trite all day every day. This forum does not NEED your constant whining wheedling contributions, if you can call them that. Do not expect this post to stay here long...lol but I feel better now. Time for more ☕ |
And they have quarter million dollar cars, 20 million dollar yachts, 25 million dollar jets, 50 million dollar homes, really!!!!!. The "snake oil" mantra of the (we know best) naysayers is getting ever so tiring. Go pick on the prescription drug companies, new furniture companies, oil companies and most of the crap they hawk on TV. Most that inhabit HEA are intelligent people and can make good decisions based on "real life experience" . If all this wire & tweek stuff is bunk, it wouldn't still be here 30+ years later if it didn't provide results. IMO, what is all boils down to is money. If one determines it is too expensive, it must be "snake oil" and I think that is a false conclusion. |
Think what you like Dill. "Snake Oil" products are only harmful to credibility of hi-end audio. Makes me think you might have an agenda ...Yes I’d love to rid the "snake oil" shysters from Hi-end audio. Just yesterday I read about a $3k 1mt, $5k 2mt, $7k 3mt iec power leads, really!!!!!. Cheers George |
Who are you George, do you decide what we hear or don’t hear? Your negative and narrow minded view does a disservice to the advancement to HEA.Same back at ya, for not having the ability to be able to recognise many, not all "snake oil" products when it bites you on the ****. Anyone one that doesn’t believe there’s "snake oil" products in hi-end audio, and that's it's harmful to the integrity of hiend, is so gullible they can’t see the forest through the trees. Cheers George |
IMO; anyone that uses the phrase "snake oil" to describe some item that may or may not provide a difference in sound in one's system has either not tried it or dismissed it because of bias based on an concept of "it can't possibly work". In the audiophile world there are not 2 systems that are alike, no two ears alike and interpretation alike. Who are you George, do you decide what we hear or don't hear? Your negative and narrow minded view does a disservice to the advancement to HEA. |
High End is Dead? I hope not if it stays real. Maybe dying because of BS like below. But many non-audiophiles I know who still love listening to my system, really look sideways when I show them some of the "snake oil" products that get peddled EG: fuses, mpingo discs ect ect. And that can’t be good to get new audiophiles interested in hiend audio. Cheers George |
@schubert Don't let the dumb majority get you down! A friend of mine posted in FB last week that he was delighted his family had chipped in and bought him a new turntable. He was so proud, he posted a photo of the new gear. A fifty buck Crosley. I met a guy with a decent hifi in a record store. He was so tight-lipped about discussing his kit, I gave up. You'd think the guy would jump at the chance to talk hobby. Sigh. |
Thanks trelja It's been very nice reading the emails I've been getting from the members. And, nice reading the responses here on the forum directly. AudioGon forum mods deserve a thank you as well for letting me come up a share so much of the Tune with folks. I'm still very much pacing myself because I'm sharing some pretty bold ideas to folks who maybe haven't had the opportunity to dive into the variable side of the hobby all that much. I'm also looking forward to sharing more on the thread "the method of tuning". I'm getting folks emailing me after starting to tune and they range from "never knew this existed", "been tuning for years and love it", "how can this be happening"....and on. It's nice seeing listeners looking at this hobby practically and empirically. thanks again trelja Michael Green www.michaelgreenaudio.net |
...”Remember when?... All it takes is hearing that first note on a higher quality sound system and you are hooked...” Oh yeah. That’s IT! (Lucy shouting as Schroeder angrily pounds Jingle Bells on the keyboard) A crazy high school English teacher with a tube amp and Dahlquist DQ 10’s spinning a Charlie Parker record for me and my friends one night...I got it. Finally hearing Jimmy Page’s electric guitar underneath the acoustic on “Ramble On.” Jeeze-Louise - ya mean that was ALWAYS there??? |
Hi ghasley "I agree with everything you’ve said and the reason is its the music that moves you and your crew. Thats cool. It also sounds like you live around others who share the passion and thats really cool." Yep it’s a cool ride! BTW your 55 going on 52, I’m 58 going on 152 :) I’ve put some serious miles on this body, I love getting older. There’s something about the building blocks of living that is very rewarding. We who have made it into our senior years are blessed. If we want we can look back, we can be in the now and we can see the future, if we don’t stay in the past too long. But, the greatest part is we can do any of these. I guess I look at the Audiophile thing as being a huge sea of hobbyist, all legit in their own hobby within the hobby, whether it be a little group of old plug & play farts or the masses. "No fuse talk, no cable talk, just music, humanity and fun." I like that statement too. I think all parts of the hobby have their place and their following. Some guys were born to debate and others can’t wait to get to that listening chair or take in a live event or let their fingers do the walking through the record shops or make Amazon rich, it’s all so much fun we could scream. We are all music kings and queens living in the greatest of times. My sound, job and life has always been based on the variables of audio, so I obviously think some of these "Fixed" or "Fix-it" tweaks are a little silly compared to having a Tunable system, but again everyone is welcome and deserving of their own hobby. In the future it’s all going to be variable so I guess these guys can knock themselves out with achieving change at the plug & play level. I am a little surprised that HEA got itself stuck in the revolving door for so long, letting the rest of the audio world catch up and pass them up, but that will all straighten itself out too. Hey, we either get to enjoy the spin or enjoy the ride into tomorrow and it’s a blast any way we travel. I like your post too ghasley. Good post kthomas and fleschler! One has got to love seeing the variety this hobby has. One thing for sure is while the HEA may be settling into a lower number (one fixed sound system) the Audiophile, and Videophile worlds are growing and have become every man’s (and women’s) home entertainment treasure. Michael Green www.michaelgreenaudio.net |
