Browsing used audio sites such as Audiogon and the Marts, high end gear ads are dominated by several dealers. Non-dealer ads are usually people trying to push 15+ year old off-brand junk at 60-70% of MSRP (when they were new). They don't sell anything. You could slash Wilsons, Magicos, etc, 50% off retail and no one will buy them.
No one buys if it costs more than 1k. It's not that they're not interested -- the ads get plenty of views. It's that the asking prices are just way over the ability of buyers to pay. Fact is, if you see a high end piece for sale it's probably by a dealer, often times trying to push it at 15% off retail because its a trade in, but also often they are taking a good chunk off the price 30, 40 sometimes 50% off. They can be famous brands with a million positive reviews. No buyers.
+2 craigl59 +1 schubert The better my system has become the more I want to listen to classical music on it. I always have enjoyed classical music, but it seems the hardest to "recreate" electronically. Live music is the gold standard; un-amplified live music is the platinum standard. My kids learned to play acoustical music on a high quality instrument. Now they all seem to have a keen sense for and appreciation of dynamics, timbre, and the emotional investment a musician needs to make an acoustical instrument convey meaning beyond words.
craigl59 - Musical style also has an impact on high-end audio purchase. Classical music requires significantly higher audio quality to sound pleasurable than do most popular styles....
2 simple comments. The younger generation are into pocket hifi (cell phone) and head phones. It's the instant gratification, download it, listen for a week than onto the next pop star song. Not about the quality. Although there is a nice little push from old soul younger generation for good vintage gear.
Baby boomers are still buying good gear. They have the $ and the memories of those pounding Kabuki speakers but now they want the real thing so open up the wallet.
One more. If you told Audio Note high end audio is dead I don't think they would beleive you. Just sayin.
High-end system is not dead but its market share is much smaller.
How many people can afford a $50K+ system unless they are filthy rich?
Most of us only have a certain amount of disposable income. A good audio system is only a dream.
I put together a system when I was in high school, Pioneer integrated amp, Dual 505-3 turntable, Nad turner, Nakamichi cassett deck, Denon CD player, and a pair of PSB book shelf speakers. I had this system for the past 50 years (and I am still using it as my spare system) and it was only 2 years ago that I decided to buy myself a retirement present (audio system) because I do not have the same responsibilities as 50 years ago.
For many of us, the central thing that was happening in the 60's and 70's was the sudden surge in creativity of relevant music, and we wanted to experience it as fully as possible. Our experiential lives were directly related to the music we experienced. It was our window into the world. HEA was a magical lens into the amazing musical events that were unfolding daily. Now, the Internet and clever apps give us that lens into the world, so HEA has lost its value proposition.
In a world of batteries driving something as powerful as an iPhone, the big, heavy, dumb offerings of HEA seem dubious to greater numbers.
I don't know how I'd measure the health of HEA. The number of dealers with real shops is way down in my experience. The used market it much less vibrant than it used to be based on my awareness of sites that sell used HEA gear. The number of people I personally know who have any interest in gear, over multiple decades, has always been either zero or one, so not much indication there.
HEA shows seem to be doing well. The magazines seem healthy and relevant. The amount of people designing and producing high-end gear seems to be as robust as ever.
Unless one wants to define the specific criteria, I don't think you can say whether it's thriving, dying, or in-between. It's definitely changing, but so is everything else.
My 24 year old son-in-law Just picked up some Elac B5's, and a lower level Project turntable. He had picked up 20-30 records getting ready. I wanted him to enjoy his 1st system so I donated a decent Rotel integrated amp, and he loves it. Sounds better than my system at his age.
I am waiting to make sure he listens and it doesn't just sit there, but I think I might have gotten another convert into this hobby.
The great high end store Excalibur in Alexandria Va closed around 1986. Among other things they had the big dog Infinity Reference System in the large room and the then new Martín Logans in one of upstairs rooms. Since then the high end has been like a wounded wildebeest running through the Kalaharii. Know one knows for sure how long he’s going to keep on going. The recent economic depression could not have been very encouraging for anyone with aspirations of making a big splash in the high end. Can you say downsize?
We can’t lay blame on those darn kids today who’ve grown up listening to music on their phones/tablets/Bluetooth speakers/Alexa because their reference points for “good equipment” are limited by those very things. My reference point was my family’s console tube driven Magnavox record player which - *gasp* - could hold and drop 5 lp’s in succession. I had nowhere to go but up in the 70’s when all that lustful receiver gear came out and there were more than enough retail stores to check stuff out.
As mentioned below, getting into hi-fi then was a dream objective. Currently, there are so many venues for music via the internet that the ease of obtaining music doesn’t at all correlate with “quality” equipment. Stores have virtually disappeared simply due the economics of inventorying expensive gear, having to make appointments to check stuff out, etc. I love cars but I loathe buying them. Same goes for audio. Love it, but most of my purchases via retail have been, where and when possible, walk-ins.
The immediate appeal of music accessibility, everywhere anytime, exceeds the perception of possessing quality playback. It’s simply not in most folks wheelhouses right now. Why would I should I spend $1000 on a good amp when I got Bluetooth streaming in my house, the den, the patio, the yard, the beach for like...a LOT less? Jeepers, I can walk into big-box retailer and buy a groovy pair of earbuds for less than $100?
I might be able to explain a reason or two why but...
They might hear me but they aren’t listening. It just doesn’t matter.
Alas, HEA will never completely go the way of the dodo bird because their’s still enough of us - me, a boomer - to bequeath my stuff to my survivors when I kick. Perhaps then they’ll get IT!
The loudness wars are a result of crappy portable playback gear, and the desire to commit to forms of isolation ---and hear the details in the music. To have those aspects pushed through.. via gear that can’t actually reproduce the fine details and can’t swing the dynamics (portable or small lifestyle crap gear), all for an ear or mind that cannot hear them and can’t be trained to as the listening materials aren’t even available anymore as the source of the inspiration.
It is always interesting to note that the blow-back on that is..that properly mastered audio source signals are called ’old school’, and have now been found to be desirable by the younger set (ie vinyl and retro gear purchases). 70’s rock and pop was far far more dynamic and alive than most of the pop and rock produced in the 2000’s and 2010’s. These aspects are fundamental to getting your mind and ass to swing in tune with the music, so the emotional hook can enter the story with intent and directional potentials.
Those of the middle part of the bell curve that demanded compression and loudness (age, capacity, intelligence and funds available to spend) to make unconscious purchase decisions, in that group is the budding audio oriented person. A good chunk of them are into messing round with high quality headphone set ups. Instead of sit down speaker based audio reproduction systems..
Those audio person potentials within the masses...they’ve (partially at the least) never really been privy to the source materials and thus never privy to the fundamental cognition of the ’why’ of high end audio.
A fundamental disconnect in the societal/cultural/temporal conveyor belt of new adherents to quality music reproduction. (add in the headphone bleed off)
Digital being a crap grab bag of convenience (in situ).... where quality of reproduction was killed off (the first 30 years of digital and it’s ubiquity), does indeed have a notable amount of the blame for this present scenario - heaped at it’s feet.
And then other fundamental problems/changes tied with forms of market dilution, and so on. Of course, all of this is only a component of the problem and answer set.
a complex scenario with many layers and directions, so it is no small wonder no one has a functional solution and so many voices that can't find a universal path. So complex that a functional answer/direction may be out there, but never get heard in the din and noise of those who don't understand the full complexity of the mess. Which counts for most of us.
I have just moved out of the bay area north 3 hrs or so. First time home buyer and learned my lesson about not thinning the herd before leaving. Sold my Burgess 2a3 but wound up shipping 20 boxes or so of just hi fi. 6 factory boxes of speakers alone. And now checking ebay just to see what the market is bearing on value of Nak RX505 and there are decks going for upwards of $500 , $1000's even , if I recall correctly. Although Im sure the seller who is asking $1k plus for a pristine vintage Nakamichi is going to wait quite awhile . One deck went for just over 400 and it had an issue or 2 and cosmetics of 6 . It depends very much on what is being sold of course and certainly that we are a sub culture of music afficionados while the majority of the population are listening via disposable Best Buy systems.
That's great that you helped your SIL to get his system going. Introducing the next generation to the capabilities of HEA is the way to keep it alive.
My youngest son loves music and has a pretty nice setup in his bedroom with a Parasound HINT and Rega RP6 with a Clearaudio Maestro V2 cart. As a teenager, he has around 75 of his own albums and access to my collection, as well. His favorites to listen to are The Beatles, Billy Joel, David Bowie, Dire Straits and other classics. Though his mom often tells him to turn down his music when it gets a little loud, it just makes me smile.
If I was a builder or inventor in HEA I would be concerned with two cultural preferences: 1) will streaming largely dominate the upcoming listening world and 2) which musical styles and file formats are likely to be the most popular. If, consequently, I concluded that we will all be streamers soon and listening to, largely, Beck-type blendings of pop and hip-hop, then I would concentrate on RME-type computer DACs with headphone/IEM excellence, Lyngdorf-type all-in-ones that handle DAC, preamp, and amp functions, and monitor speakers that fit into small spaces and are designed to provide a step up from headphones. OH, WAIT A MINUTE... ...that's exactly what's already happening. So maybe HEA as we used to know it is, already, dead. Pass Labs, with its XA25 and Magico, with its A3 are already "slumming" in order to broaden their customer base. The continued success of separate components, large speakers, and specialty interconnects would be tied (in my HEA mind) to the continued success of distribution mediums such as LPs, CDs, and HD downloads. Instead, the just-released CD "Volunteer" by the Old Crow Medicine Show (excellent, btw) shows a distressing trend in modern CD production. Yes, it's a CD at 16/44.1 but the signal is so heavily compressed that there is no real dynamic range -- all is simply pushed as close to 0 DB as possible. Very loud with a dulling sameness that shouts "You get the MP3 sound ideal no matter what the distribution medium."
Anyone who says high end is changing to personal audio is just saying that the high end is dead. Cell phones sound like CRAP. Modern pop music is TRASH. I have a pretty good portable player and it merely sucks LESS.
Meanwhile I have a Technics network integrated up for 50% retail -- not a SINGLE response, even to tire-kick or to lowball. Is $2k a bridge too far? SAD!
I wanted to add that many consumers were stung financially during the last President's tenure. A stagnant economy against the general public, stagnant wages against the general public, no bail-out offered to the working folk, all adds up to purchasing less gear. Manufacturing increased in prices as well as retail MSRP.
The good news is that our Economy is rebounding and growing.
Financial confidence is returning for the general (buying) public.
I don't understand the proliferation of new turntables/arms at this year's AXPONA and Munich last year. I just saw two new $23,000 turntables w/arms from Einstein and Thales (the former's first turntable). I think Levinson just came out with a VPI made table for $10,000. That's a lot of money for new turntables. TheAudioBeat had several other turntables reviewed this year at $37,500 for a Monaco 2.0 and a $9,000 Thales Compact. It makes me think something is wrong with my VPI VI w/SME IV (modded) arm which cost less than half of most of those tables. Am I mistaken, or are all these new $23,000 tables/arms really that good compared to 10 year old VPI tables (SME IV still sold at Acoustic Sounds)?
“Anyone who says high end is changing to personal audio is just saying that the high end is dead. Cell phones sound like CRAP. Modern pop music is TRASH. I have a pretty good portable player and it merely sucks LESS.”
Personal audio in the 1960’s was a transitor radio with a single bad speaker with a single earpiece and it was AM only. Personal audio is light years better today!!! Listen to Astell & Kern products or a Chord Hugo 2 fed wirelessly or wired from an iphone lossless and then exclaim that personal audio sucks. While it isn’t my preferred method of listening, it sounds darn good. While I don’t like all pop music today either, I didn’t like it all 10, 20 or 30 years ago. I remember not so fondly that Helen Reddy, Tony Orlando and Dawn and the Captain and Tennielle(sp) not only had hit records but moreover, they were given weekly 1 hour network TV variety shows as well. The sky isn’t falling just because people listen to music differently than you think they should. Heck, I survived disco and remember well the record burning night at Comiskey Park in Chicago!
“Meanwhile I have a Technics network integrated up for 50% retail -- not a SINGLE response, even to tire-kick or to lowball. Is $2k a bridge too far? SAD!”
I’m sure the Technics network integrated you are trying to sell sounds great, probably better than the majority of integrateds from just a few years ago but I can’t imagine there are alot of people signing on to Audiogon searching for that particular type of gear. Don’t go looking for an Omega watch on a Rolex forum or a Porsche forum looking for an Opel or a BMW forum looking for an Audi or a Harley Davidson forum looking for a Ducati. I know it will have some value to someone but likely not any takers on Audiogon. No offense intended but a Technics dealer wouldnt give you 50% on trade even if you bought it from them. Im not trying to denigrate you, your gear or Technics.
I started out with a Realistic receiver in the mid 1970’s with matching speakers but I still remember the first time I played the Doors “Riders on the Storm”. Im sure it sucked to someone who had better gear but to me, it was transformational. It was better still at my friends house whose father had a McIntosh tube setup and massive Bozak speakers. Its transformational still today on my Audio Research and Wilson audio setup but if I were walking through a mall and they were playing The Doors, it would still be transformational. Man, its about the music and if you think you are going to convert someone to this hobby because of the gear then yes, high end audio will die. I dont happen to subscribe to that however.
When the young people are talking about the music that moves them whether its Meyer Hawthorne or Kendrick Lamar or Sugar Ray or whatever, cue it up and play it for them! Ask them what it is about the music that evokes and promotes thought and then the conversation inevitably shifts to the question “why does this sound so much better/different/clear/smooth than they have heard before”. Its the music that makes the gear relevant not the gear that makes the music relevant. If you vehemently disagree with that statement all is likely lost.
9 years ago, I was at a friend’s party celebrating his daughter’s college graduation. Her friends were discussing music and I overheard them and added to the conversation about a couple of the young musicians they were talking about. They were floored. We ended up having a great discussion.
Listen to musicians who are just hitting the ’scene.’ They are as good or better than those from other generations. And as I clearly learned, they also open doors and build connections.
Wondering if high-end audio is doing better with younger people in Europe and Asia than in the US. The market for manufacturers is spread upon the earth--it has to be in a lot of places, if not here in the US. Schubert, I live six blocks from Audio Perfection, where I have been guided over twenty years toward the system I have today. A good retail advisor is invaluable.
Most of ads on Audiogon is for old and/or off-brand gear for less than $1000. Wilsons and Magicos are a tiny minority of listings and they're all from dealers. In reality no one is buying high end. I went to AXPONA this year, and I didn't see many (any?) people discussing a purchase with the dealers -- come in, listen for a minute, than leave with a pamphlet.
What’s going to kill the high-end is the manufacturer’s control of the industry. I submit it’s crazy for manufactures to dictate what a component can be sold for and who a store can sell to. I know dealers who have lost companies because they provided too big of a discount or sold to someone outside of their district. As a consumer I should be able to purchase from any store I want to. The store should be able to sell at whatever price they want to without fear of losing the company. I’ve traveled a lot and have visited many stores. Why can’t I purchase something from a store I actually visited during my travel without the store being required to justify why they sold to me? The irony is some of these companies sell direct despite having brick and mortar stores that sell their products.
We have yet to see any data or documentation showing where the High-End Audio Industry is shrinking, going away or dead (a whopper of gargantuan proportions). If you check Industry publications for statistics and view the distribution numbers (some are audited for authenticity), every magazine continues to grow readership year after year. If you check the quantity of internet videos and participation related to sound reproduction on the professional and consumer sides of life, you will find they too are increasing steadily on a daily basis.
The loss of dealer based audio showroom storefronts was due to the expanding internet. Examine Sears, KMart, Circuit City, Best Buy and JC Penny as examples of brick and mortar losses. It takes greater business savvy and sense to keep any brick shop open these days and yes there are dealers who have survived the web based onslaught and yes there are new dealers figuring out ways to open a storefront and expand business.
In the 50’s and 60’s High End Audio was considered a very “tiny” niche’ industry. We began to grow in the 70’s with the return of our Vets bringing home hi-fi systems from abroad. The 80’s was a leveling off or possible shrinking period due to the live performance going the way of MTV, the innovation of CD’s and other digital mediums. The 90’s saw an increase is business for whatever reason and the Great Recession absolutely reduced our “Luxury Driven Business”. Compare High End Audio stats to the precious stone market, top shelf auto or any other luxury driven industries and you might find similar comparisons and trends over the same periods of time.
What determines or separates Mid-Fi from High End? Is there a magical dollar amount one is required to spend?
Every industry imaginable offers products that cover the consumer investment spread. Notice how most of those Luxury Car Brands are now manufacturing more affordable versions? Does this mean their High End markets too are at risk?
When you started off, did you NOT begin with a low budget sound system and grow from there?
The person laying out the smaller bucks enjoys music just as much as the guy whose career blossomed into a higher earned income status and therefore can now afford the higher end offerings. One cannot judge an industry based on product availability and pricing in the pre-owned marketplace. Our company was built on a $10 product and we still sell the exact same product now - thirty years later where the price is $20… and in the High End Audio business to boot.
Why not just call it AUDIO?
As a manufacturer and having been in this business for over thirty years, I will state the Audio Industry is strong, especially when observed on a global scale. It doesn’t matter how large or small High End or Mid-Fi or Whatever-Fi is currently being analyzed as all industry and business evolve on a daily basis. I have issues regarding the gloom and doom theories presented by a host of characters on this thread AND without any supportive evidence of said demise. It appears some are attempting to attract attention to themselves including a few manufacturers/dealers whose opinions are directed against the very business they depend on. Someone please inform them there are many other ways to shoot yourself in the butt!
Remember when?... All it takes is hearing that first note on a higher quality sound system and you are hooked. Invite people of the younger generations in and let them hear what good sound has to offer. Just like all of us, there will be a percentage of new listeners who join the party.
I have faith in music. We have faith in human emotion and what listening enjoyment brings to the table. Music will always be a part of humanity and there will always be those who have the same urges as we do. Audio in all aspects will continue to populate long after we are gone.
Professional sound and consumer audio Trade Shows are selling or already sold out of exhibit space for the next season. The live concert circuit is hotter than ever and record sales are way up. Keep an eye on those record sales because when record sales are flat so goes the Audio Industry. The great news for everyone is that record sales always make a comeback… always!
I am an optimist and these are my humble opinions.
Most of ads on Audiogon is for old and/or off-brand gear for less than $1000. Wilsons and Magicos are a tiny minority of listings and they're all from dealers
Perhaps because a) the top end stuff is only a tiny minorityof the volume, especially when you take account of sales over time b) people hold onto top end gear and c) if they do sell it’s often via a dealer on consignment (let them deal with the hassle) or as a trade up (case in point the recent set of M Project being sold for a customer who has purchased M6)
As someone actively buying and selling in this market it seems quite healthy to me, sure maybe resale prices are not as good as they have been but that just means there are better options as a buyer, and anyone who gets into this business expecting not to lose 20-30% at least any time they buy and sell is fooling themselves
+1 folkfreak Robert/Audiopoint: Pretty sure we live on different planets but I admire your positivism and well-written creativity. Here's something from John Prine's new album, "The Tree of Forgiveness:" "The lonesome friends of science say The world will end most any day Well if it does then that's OK 'Cause i don't live here anyway..." Yes, it's a great CD and you should listen to the final cut/masterpiece "When I Get to Heaven." On High-end gear, that is!
Most of ads on Audiogon is for old and/or off-brand gear for less than $1000. Wilsons and Magicos are a tiny minority of listings and they're all from dealers. In reality no one is buying high end. I went to AXPONA this year, and I didn't see many (any?) people discussing a purchase with the dealers -- come in, listen for a minute, than leave with a pamphlet.
@madavid0
Like many of us who start out on this site, you have been given the benefit of the doubt repeatedly with your posts and the "conclusions" you make based on incomplete or faulty evidence sited. High end is doing very well but it is doing very well by doing it differently than in the past. Your quote above is respectfully off the mark. What is off brand? The biggest flawed conclusion you draw is since "nothing" is for sale on Audiogon, High End is doomed. Maybe its my "poor understanding" of economics but if not much is for sale that interests you I would submit that maybe those items find satisfied users in the new retail market (they keep the gear) or the used gear that does come available sells quickly. The absence of inventory/items for sale actually indicates a healthy market...not just with audio but with the economy in general. There was alot of high quality gear for sale for peanuts during the recession of 2008-11 but did that make High End healthy or no? Because you walked around Axpona and no one was hauling home the show gear in your presence means High End is in trouble? I don't go to shows to buy, I go to shows to research and hear alot of different gear in one place during a concentrated time frame.
Now to the threads you start, the following are just the past 5 you have started. High end is dead? Schiit not that good? Isolation stands: Snakeoil? Integrateds: Why do they all SUCK? Mapleshade isolation: Does nothing?
But if I only stop with your last 5 threads started, I would have missed out on these beauties: Cartidges: Complete Scam? Synergistic Research: Scam? What is your agenda and why the negative posturing and fear mongering?
High end isn't dead just because you didn't see a guy tossing cash on the floor in front of a dealer at Axpona any more than Schiit is bad because it didn't measure up, in your opinion, to an Esoteric stack in the next room. Everything is relative. I'll go back to my original opinion that while you might not be an actual troll, you have troll-like tendencies as displayed by your repeated introduction of thread topics similar to a 7th grade coach who also is forced to teach a civics class and today's topic is economics. Peace.
A couple of things…many young people attend concerts in droves (actual droves), and not just for electronica, so there’s that. Also, "high end" has always been dead in the sense that the amount of people who "actively listen" to recorded music has always been minuscule, and alleged High End "salons" have no idea how to sell the stuff to anybody but the already interested. Local legends Goodwin’s High End (it’s in the name so it must be good…good…win…high end) doesn’t have a mailing list for events, doesn’t do live music at their shop (a travesty…you can get a great jazz trio to play for less money than the cost of a used cable), and is staffed with both nice people, and self absorbed "experts" with minimal 2 way conversation content absorption skills. "We don’t sell Linn belts (true thing), but here’s a great $5,000 turntable for ya." The good news is that companies like Schiit and Rogue and others prove all night that less precious gear can sound astonishingly good. I run sound for live shows, and attend things when I’m not too lazy to get off the couch, and last weekend saw the Brad Mehldau trio, and the weekend before that saw Yo Yo and the BSO…any reference for my home rig? Hell no…my home rig is tweaked and assembled for me only! Note that Goodwin’s should open a "middle end" and "low end" biz.
I was gone for the last couple of days but was looking forward to reading more on this topic. First, why I was gone was because some of the members here asked me to help them with their "final" system. I find that interesting that they made the point of saying "final" instead of first or another. The Harry & J Gordon audio kids are in our late 50's-80's. The HEA revolving door lost a lot of it's steam, and fun to be honest, because the magazines were keeping us under their spell. When the magazines started loosing that hip generation of reviewers I think many of us began thinking "is the end near". After the mid 90's the industry had a different feel to it, which I mentioned earlier. When I read some of the comments made, the image in my head is the guy driving on threads yet still trying to pump air into those over used tires.
The Kool Cats to me are the guys who have enjoyed this hobby for what it was and what we have explored together with all of the great personalities and products. However we have also grown in wisdom and discernment as listeners. We are the guys who lived through the golden era of HEA. The quest of making it better, was a different one from those with one foot in the polish and the other in the bucks. There are younger Kool Cats out there now, but I don't see them all that interested in HEA. A great sound in their room yes (still having dedicated rooms), but no interest in the same language or chassis. The younger newer guys (and gals) have no desire to go to the HEA shows. Why? Because they have their own shows of advanced audio. I did a system for one of these younger gents just 3 weeks ago and it was killer, only he didn't call it a listening room or a home theatre. The name for this room was "the gaming room". The focus was on sight & sound but no huge amps sitting on display along with their hard to drive speakers. We did a simple Tunable setup, and I have done two of these setups since because of the demo he gave to others.
The hobby has changed, and as great as the listening hobby or movie hobby still are, the gaming hobby has become the latest addiction for the senses. After we built this gaming room/system the owner played a video from "Tool" and I think I left sometime in the early morning, after being turned on the tons of artist through his eyes and ears. He didn't once mention anything HEA, but was totally into the soundstage I had created for him. Things were floating in and out of the room's dimensions, appearing on and off the screen. Sound Stage!
I don't see the new generation debating the meaning of soundstage like highenders do. These folks are all about the electronic soundstage, and either the system can play it or not. HEA is a very hip thing, but it's somewhat weird for us to hang our hat on something that will be archived as a past technology. Yep, there are a few youngsters that are going to keep HEA alive, but compared to the mainstream HEA is a declining species. And, why shouldn't it be? I have to apologize to some of you on here for me being so bold, but if you think newer recordings are crap, you need to literally consider the source. Soundstaging is and always will be advancing. If you have a system that can't play it, that's a different issue than the recording.
You describe the situation perfectly as age and generational-based. Am in my mid-60s and went to a professional orchestra concert recently. Was the youngest person there by a large margin.
There are few or no young orchestral lovers coming up and wonder if the HEA landscape is similar.
Posted this on the " New Tweak---It's Fantastic" thread.
Other takes from Axpona. Is High End Dying? The answer would be, YES!
20-30 year old - Non Existence 30-40 year old - Only in tow with an old guy 40-50 year old- some and only tow with an old guy 50-55 year old - some 55-65 year old - A LOT 65+ My group; I am still hanging in: my friends are passing younger. Those that are left; are passing in front of TV.
My buddy's comment; He has never seen so many old, white, middle class guys in one place.
Yep I believe we were part of the greatest HEA generation, and what fun it was! The camaraderie was genuine. I remember Frank Doris took me over to Harry’s place (early 90’s) and set me loose. The place had all my acoustical treatment and the racks, and custom built ampclamps for this amazing sea of the top ender amps at the time. I was having a blast all by myself until I heard this voice "so your the one" I turned and then went on with my tuning. A few moments later I heard "mind if I do" so he took over the chair, listened, and then said to me "this will never be the same again". Harry understood the era that we all built together. I tuned Harry’s systems up several times after that and each time it was like "this will never be this good again". Harry Pearson’s absolute sound was not a product, it was a moment of listening. Another time I was there set free to do my thing, and especially choose my favorite sound (which is impossible at Harry’s place with so many toys). I was in town for 2 or 3 days and finally landed on the sound I was going for at that time. I got the biggest smile of approval when I chose a small Beard amplifier over so many options and price ranges. You could just see that look on his face "this is the best there ever was".
There was something about that particular time in this hobby where listeners really were giants and equipment listening was more than a 3 day trade show or a test report. Mimic as they might try today but to those of us who lived it, there was a depth and anticipation that you can’t duplicate. Generations of listeners are just that. It’s a moment that isn’t suppose to be kept on life support forever, it was an era that we entered into together, and because we had music as our guide and friendships as our family, we did something great! And most importantly every recording was a treasure to some and a nightmare to others. It was a generation that was a main meal and not leftovers.
Today is new and fresh, and different. And the quality of today is the same as when our elders look at us saying "what is that your playing" because they didn’t understand it. It’s a language of new and our moms and dads look at us wondering how we could listen to such trash. Today that trash is our beloved classics. Each generation brings it’s own into the world. We’re not going to reverse this, it already happened.
Inasmuch as the high end is oft identified with audio nervosa and similar neurotic or quasi neurotic traits associated with the obsessive and compulsive pursuit of perfection and demand for nearly continuous improvements to sound quality, many folks have backed off the throttle just a tad. Coming back down to reality, if you’ll excuse the expression, sometimes involves downsizing, not only in terms of cost but actual size, paradigm shifting from speaker systems to headphones or streaming. Have you ever felt the system was, uh, taking over? Or maybe folks have developed other competing interests like Blu Ray movies or YouTube or whatever.
You describe the situation perfectly as age and generational-based. Am in my mid-60s and went to a professional orchestra concert recently. Was the youngest person there by a large margin.
There are few or no young orchestral lovers coming up and wonder if the HEA landscape is similar.
I am not here to dispute your feelings or opinions but assuming you are describing the survival of orchestral music being dependent on age, concert attendance and/or generational-based population, I prefer to believe the opposite of your concert experience is more the reality.
The Banff International String Quartet Competition held annually is but one example that would absolutely change your mind set with regards to the numbers of younger classical based listeners, enthusiasts and musicians that are present in the music scene.
I’m a fan of the Dover Quartet where their audiences consistently include people of all ages and nationalities. We would be happy to provide a few more symphonies and/or concerts you could attend to verify there are young as well as the young at heart audiences present and involved in classical settings. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6j3lmyNjNU
In addition, with age comes experience where some musical tastes change and widen over periods of time. At 17 years I was weaned on the Blues, dug Big Band Music and earned a good living working in Rock & Roll. As I grew older, along came the classically trained cellist who opened my soul to a sound I once thought to be boring.
The point being classical music and live presentations will outlive us all. This music has survived generation after generation and on a global scale. I cannot fathom the music style or live symphony performances ever dying off or losing out to a single generation.
Anyone can dispute the future of High End Audio. Some here prefer to use their clients and stories of the past as examples of industry direction in order to validate their opinions or more so promote their products and business; instead should take out a paid advertisement. Whether Industry growth depends on the old “Cool” Guys or the next gen gaming generation or whatever generation you so desire to focus on, there will always be high end audio offerings. Some say HEA will no longer be the main stream of audio. Will someone please tell me when HEA was ever considered in the mainstream?
Remember when High End Car Audio died in the late 90’s? Out of curiosity I recently walked into a few car audio dealers in Wilmington and Newark DE to see how they are surviving and to my shock, business is utterly booming once again… point being audio never dies, just evolves.
The Audio Industry will always provide high end equipment offerings. According to some people high end products are going away, too expensive and bulky, already classified as dead or are those same people just drumming up more negative support for their own aspirations. No matter how anyone storyboards it, the future of audio reproduction will remain steadfast.
Today, the Audio Industry “as we know it” is healthy and strong so I prefer to reside in the here and now and let the future of the next generation be answered when that time arrives.
Remember this:
“A strong and successful audio company will always adapt their technology and products to meet the demands for whatever the future brings”.
@nkoner
Your Chicago Show post is a joke, right?. Obviously you missed or overlooked younger people in attendance and how about all those ‘much younger trade associates’ working for the vendors selling ‘you’ their products? Next show you attend, park yourself in the Cans portion of the venue where there you can easily add younger listeners to your list. More importantly, please tell your buddy that there were a lot more people there than just old middle class white guys. "Not only do we tend to see what we expect to see, we also tend to experience what we expect to experience." As Hitchcock proved, this can make all the difference.
In closing: My reply concerning whether HEA is dying, dead or going by the wayside is exemplified in one word - “Rubbish”!
Audio will forever evolve and before I write something concerning all the naysayers which will really lead to trouble...
I’m putting some Stevie Ray in the car system, taking a trip up to Double Decker Records, where there is always a large group of the younger gen in house, and buy more music. On the return leg I’ll stop off in Philly and see a concert or recital or two while they last - or better yet, while I last ⌣ .
60’s-80’s HEA was very much in the mainstream. The market was progressively balance top to entry level. Marantz, Mac, Pioneer, Technics, AR, Advent, Hitachi, JVC, Klipsch, Altec Lansing, Quad and several hundred other brands, all being part of a united audiophile world. It’s when the Stereophile type Magazines teamed up with cottage industry manufacturers, that the divide began to take place and the Stereophile & TAS club separated itself from the mainstream. For those of us who lived through it, the sides taking was very clear (Harry & J Gordon never denied this). The formative brands of home audio were pushed aside with these 100,000-250,000 listeners being told they (mainstream brands) were now inferior to the smaller bench based companies. Of course it wasn’t true, but the magazines found their market and the split happened. So the millions of clients that were shared before, went on their marry way while the HEA success would eventually fade with age. And that’s exactly what has happened. It’s not a bad thing, it’s just reality. When HEA removed itself from the mainstream, within a couple of years the HEA started to decline. Everyone could see it here in Vegas when we were at the Convention center and Sahara. As soon as that location split happened further away from the convention center the crowd size was cut 75% that very first year. It was like the new blood vanished, and excuses started being made from then on, plus false growth.
it’s like this
Walk up to someone on the street and say do you know who Toyota and Lexus is, and they will tell you of course. Now ask that same person if they know who Sony and Rogue Audio (just using you guys as a name example, you make great products). They’re going to know Sony, but will say "who is Rogue". HEA took itself out of the mainstream, and from that moment forward limited itself to a smaller crowd, with a few of the companies breaking through, but most of the HEA brands we see at these trade shows are never going to grow beyond that because they have no sustaining interest built up. And as I said earlier now that they have all but left the main CEA (CES) arena it will even be harder for the HEA to be noticed.
Don’t get me wrong, the audiophile world is exploding with hobbyist including in home listening clients. They are just still so so about the HEA or don’t even know it exist. I don’t see how that can grow if all there is is HEA trade shows and not tied to the innovative electronic shows. Plus, picture younger home entertainment buffs looking at gigantic amps sitting in the middle of their living rooms. There might be a thousand or two of these guys out there, but that’s about it.
The home entertainment hobby is changing and it is exciting to be a part of it, but it is quickly taking on a new face.
nkoner, I would say your chart is pretty much on the money
And as Geoff says "Coming back down to reality" that’s what I see as well. Where ever that reality ends up at, I don’t see it being what we saw 15 years ago in HEA with these super complicated systems that only provided one sound. Music is far more variable than a guy sitting there with a huge system with simply a volume control to get them to accurate sound.
If I wasn't going to use my room and system as a tuning device, why wouldn't I go with headphones? The whole idea is to use your in room system as a tool to dial in the conditions of the recording. Where HEA lost this is and always has been very strange to me. If I was only going to go as far as plug & play I'd be using my cans.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
