06-22-14: Phd
I wonder what manufacturers from Asia that Americans seek. I'm speaking for the vast majority of Americans. Sony, Marantz, Denon, Onkyo, etc., sell audio gear to the vast majority of Americans. In the high end scene there are Shindo, Allnic, Accuphase, Air Tight, and many, many others. I didn't even start to list the hundreds of Chinese manufacturers who sell lots of gear to Americans, or many of the phono cartridge manufacturers. Far too many to list. |
Frogman, that is very interesting, I had thought there would be pockets of interest for hip hop but the last time I was in Japan was the early eighties. Thanks for the heads up. |
Actually, PhD, I was in Japan two months ago and was flabbergasted at just how much hip hop culture has influenced pop culture there. It is very obvious in TV programming and commercials and the way young people dress. Rap in Japanese is something to experience :-) In Korea it was even more prevalent.
While it is true that in Asia there is a deep interest in most things American I think the overriding issue (as much as one can fairly generalize about these things) is that the Japanese love quality; not only American quality. The main reason for the soaring price of certain French made vintage musical instruments is the hoarding by Japanese collectors. |
Jmcgrogan2, it is interesting that the Japanese people love american made audio gear and motorcycles. Last time I read they also embrace the American 1950's lifestyle. I don't think they have bought into the new hip hop scene. I wonder what manufacturers from Asia that Americans seek. |
I have heard from a couple of USA manufacturers that 75% of their business is from Asia. Rather ironic that most Americans buy Asian audio gear while the Asians are buying American gear. |
Thank you. That's what I was getting at. China, Japan, Korea, Singapore, Malaysia, even India...all crazy about hi-fi and high end audio. It's almost fully ingrained into their cultures its that popular. There's Europe too, but not as much. |
"06-21-14: Dave_72
Keep in mind that this is primarily a North American problem. And it's due to a number of factors, most of which have already been addressed here. However, audio (and high end audio) is thriving elsewhere in the world, especially in the Far East!"
He's exactly right on that. If you've ever been to CES, most of the people there are Asian. (I'm talking about the high end section in the hotels, not the convention center). I have a couple of friends that are into vintage tube gear. They can't find enough stuff to buy and ship overseas fast enough. Huge crates packed with gear. They send it all to China. |
I mentioned Peter Green because he was in the original Fleetwood Mac band. Many people don't realize how great a guitar player Frank Zappa was, and while we're at it how about a shout out for Mike Bloomfield as well |
My 18 year old son has no regard for my 2 "speaker based rigs" and even shrugs at my headphone system with Beyerdynamic T1 cans and Ray Samuels Raptor Headphone amp. |
Keep in mind that this is primarily a North American problem. And it's due to a number of factors, most of which have already been addressed here. However, audio (and high end audio) is thriving elsewhere in the world, especially in the Far East! |
it surprises me when I read about boorish behavior in the shops. You'd think they'd know better by now. True. And they're probably trapped in their own little world, but I can't say for sure... |
Lately I've been checking out the TV show 'Kitchen Nightmares'. Wouldn't it be great to have a show like this but with Audio shops instead of restaurants with hidden cameras and a Gordon Ramsey-ish audio guy coming to critique and go nose to nose with some of these shops!? Of course there will never be enough interest in a show like this so it'll never happen. I remember decades ago when one of the audio digests, TAS or S'phile, ran a series of articles (or was it letters?) encouraging people to write in about shitty customer service and bad manners in the shops. With most brick and mortar shops currently on life support, it surprises me when I read about boorish behavior in the shops. You'd think they'd know better by now. |
I'm still waiting on that chance encounter of meeting or running into a fellow audiophile by accident Don't worry, they are out there. I formed the LVAC (Las Vegas Audio Club) about a year ago and at the moment we're not real big in numbers (about 13-14 people) but the camaraderie is great. I didn't think it would go anywhere, but it has. I am surprised at this. For more info, check out the audio clubs section here under "Las Vegas." And check out our blog: lavegasaudioclub.blogspot.com Thanks! |
In the world of "musician appreciation," Peter Green is generally considered a guitar god, Zappa is and was one of the most respected composers and guitar players of his generation, and Lindsey Buckingham is a gazillionaire uber successful dude who is still touring and making his millions of fans happy...maybe a we need new definition of underrated around here. |
Neither is the high end bug contagious. While many have found themselves in my listening room and some have made small improvements in their own systems, none have been willing to sell his/her soul for the endorphins.
I'm waiting for the chance encounter but not expecting it. |
I'm still waiting on that chance encounter of meeting or running into a fellow audiophile by accident |
There's also the Peter Green Fleetwood Mac which was an entirely different creature and doesn't seem to get the respect they deserve. I do agree though Lindsey is an under rated guitar player as is Zappa |
Either you've got this high-end bug or you don't. I remember being awestruck the first time I saw my uncle's receiver... he laughed... took it off the shelf and gave it to me. The first time I heard a pair of AR 3's I stood there like a deer in the headlights. |
Minorl has it exactly right; as does Wolf re the state of music today. As much as I hate to say it one the biggest obstacles to the success of the High End may be audiophiles ourselves. The cynicism and negativity passing for "reality" as demonstrated so far is amazing. What a bunch of curmudgeons we are. "Snobbery" in the High End? What is more snobbish than being intent on considering oneself part of "a dieing breed". I have been reading and hearing about the death of quality audio for years and it is still here; and it is thriving as far as I can see. I see more manufacturers of quality gear than ever before (noticed how many manufacturers of quality TURNTABLES! we have now?), and in the 40+ years that I have played in this hobby I have never seen so much value offered in spite of the cries that gear is too expensive. Who says we are entitled to have the best? Instead of celebrating the fact that gear that is less than sota is still far better than much of the "best" of 40 years ago, we go around being pissed off that we cant afford the best; not a good perspective imo.
As has been pointed out, there will always be demand for gear that is a cut above. The High End is here to stay. |
Fleetwood Mac are certainly successful (I saw 'em live by accident once and they were great)...Christine McVie has an amazing voice and has rejoined them I think. My point is that there are other people out there who are worthy of attention and every bit as good as the mainstream stuff you may enjoy...I hope I've simplified this point enough for the top 40 aficionados among us. |
Sad to say that the Magnolias in my city probably offer the best customer service. The sales staff may not be the most knowledgeable bunch but they are leaps and bounds more personable than the stiffs that work in the local HiFi shops.
That is part of the reason I feel like the brick and mortar stores are falling to the wayside. I would much rather take a chance on buying gear off here either new or used than deal with the apathetic owners if the shops. |
Where are you, big bad wolf? Are you listening to a live recording of Big Love and the following track on The Dance Landslide by the most underrated guitarist of his generation which features only Lindsey and his guitar and then Stevie and Lindsey's guitar and which awes everyone who hears it on my system? Or are you, as I suspect, paralyzed with PTS from your ancient musical lobotomy? |
BTW, I think the comment on the ipod is incorrect. I think it is capable high quality audio, but most (many) people don't know it. |
Really like this forum except Wolf putting me down. Glad to hear there is still creativity out there. I don't have time to find it. Would sure like to hear it on the top 40. Putting down my Fleetwood Mac?!! Now there's high end snobbery and fightin' words. |
audiophiles are born, not made. that's my take. It's an inborn need to search for better sound and eventually possess it. It's the notion that rack systems and Ipods don't cut it and so begins the journey. Not everyone has this inside of them. |
"High End" is a pretentious word coined by Harry Pearson. Maybe because the word "Hi-Fidelity" lost its original intent of meaning during the 60's when everything was referred to as "Hi-Fi" or "Hi-Fidelity? Don't know for sure, maybe Harry could clue us in to why he came up with the term in the first place. To me it has absolutely no meaning to differentiate a 1K system from a 1000K system for that matter. I really don't like the term myself. If it means money spent how much and furthermore so what? We purchase what we can afford and there is plenty of excellent "Hi End" gear that is affordable.
There will always be the 1-5%er's that want to hear their music well reproduced. I do agree with many of the posts above except for the one's that state the industry is close to death. Certainly agree not for an unconcious lack of trying. It has done an abysmal job of marketing itself. The continuing trend towards unjustifiably higher prices seems a concious decision by some in the industry to chase after the slow rather than fast buck, a "Stairway to the Stars" approach. Fortunately there are some manufacturers' that continue to design and market superb products at prices that average music lovers can actually afford. At least those 1-5%er's that are interested enough to seek them out. And yes, kids today have too many distractions, concerns and technologies to choose from but even among them there are those that are potential customers although that quaint notion that we the dinos have for the realization of well reproduced music in our homes will quite likely morph into something quite different in the future IME. 2 channel stereo played back through mega buck ostentatious sound systems is NOT the future of this industry but will remain a fringe of the fringe. Well reproduced music will survive for both music enthusiasts AND audiophiles and those that call themself both.
And back to the future we go, vinyl anyone and why not? If there is a renaissance in that format there must be a reason, like it STILL is more involving musically than digital maybe? Nah the answer couldn't be THAT simple to those that don't hear or believe it. |
My 22 year old daughter produces live shows, which is great for somebody with an Art History degree... |
Todays generation has been abducted by sensory overload and most do not have the attention span to sit down and focus on the nuance of great music. Music is something that is background noise while doing homework, texting, facebooking etc. My 20 year old daughter has no interest in sitting down and just listening to an album. My kids can't even sit through a family meal without being connected to some kind of electronic device. |
Best Buy faces a lot of competition these days. A common business strategy to combat that is focus on service and quality. With the right approach a chain like Best Buy offering very good audio products that one can actually hear and audition before buying might not be a bad piece of strategy, to fill a void that might appeal to some.
They already charge top dollar for most accessories, so why not the big ticket items that fuel those as well. That might give them something to work with to compete against Amazon for example.
B&M stores these days have to offer unique value not available via ebusiness, or else.... |
Brands like Krell, Sunfire, Mark Levinson, Pass and even some large tube brands like VTL, VAC may be soon sold via BestBuy stores(Martin Logan, NAD, Paradigm are already there).
Above assumed manufacturers will come up with either price reduction or specific models they'd like to sell via BestBuy to the larger general public.
As a retailer I personally admire BestBuy customer service and business strategy and see the future in this giant to be able to promote our dying hobby. |
At the Bestbuy near me the Magnolia room is located in the rear corner of the store and if you didn't know it was there you could easily miss it, and don't see many people in there anyhow, particularly younger people.
There was a line around the building though to try out the new Mario Bros Smashfest game that hadn't been released yet. There may be some renewed interest in turntables because they're "kind of cool" but like how others have stated many will invest in decent headphones to use with their smartphones not with an audio rig.
I realize you don't have to spend a fortune to get decent sound but most aren't willing to invest the time or resources pursuing it and are more than content with their Iphones.
There are just far too many competing choices for peoples time these days and the price of entry remains a barrier for many |
High End audio is NOT the music business which is actually doing fine...big "gate keeper" labels are having to adjust or die, but independent musicians are figuring it out...online concerts, live shows to sell your swag and CDs...all good. Ever know somebody with a record contract? Ask 'em if they made any money. As for the argument that new music isn't as good as Fleetwood Mac (!), I can say from my experience over recent decades as a live sound mixer and concert producer that anyone who thinks today's musicians aren't every bit as brilliant as the over hyped stuff from the past simply isn't getting out much. Still plenty of lame stuff to go around of course, but I've been astonished at the extremely high level of musicianship and beautiful writing created by scores of young artists that most so called "music fans" can't be bothered to search out (local "coffee house" concerts or house concerts is where you should start, just don't ask the sales dude at the audio "salon"). The jazz scene is also kicking ass, and you should be sad if your ass isn't one of them getting kicked. |
There is and always will be a level of snobbery in the high end for any industry or product. But, I believe that real appreciation outweighs the snobbery. My original post discussed Toyota vs Mercedes. That was not to snub Toyota or to uplift Mercedes, but to draw attention to the fact that there is a difference in quality and attention in products. A timex vs a Breitling. Pretty much every product has a low end, mid, and high end. You can see it everywhere. There are snobs out there. My definition of a snob isn't someone that knows and appreciates quality, equipment and "high-end" items, but to me someone that knows what they like and doesn't like isn't a snob. The snob is a person that tells you what you like. Early in my life, I didn't like wine at all. But, later in life I found out why. It was because I never really had a good glass of wine. Parties, weddings, etc. they served to me, pretty bad stuff, (to me). So naturally, I thought all wine was bad. But, with education in wine, wine tastings, and participating in the industry, I found that there is some really good wine out there. Snob? not at all. I now know what I like and don't like. Life is too short to drink bad wine. Same with music and music equipment. Life is to short to have my ears hurt. But do I force my opinion on others? absolutely not. I let the music speak for itself. My equipment isn't the absolute best. Far from it. But for me, my history in music and appreciation in music and quality electronics, I can say that I'm there. On Audiogon, I don't tell others what they like, I do however, suggest that they try some equipment and most importantly take that equipment home for an in-home demo in their system to hear for themselves. I believe personally that "high-end" audio is actually gaining ground. I hear more about vinyl and vinyl playback now than a few years ago. I do believe that audio stores and dealers/salespeople can be a little more inviting and open and less critical and closed in their response to potential buyers. I see advertising for walmart, Costco, Sears, etc. but no advertisements for higher end audio. So how would younger, less educated potential buyers find out? Best Buy's idea of having Magnolia Audio in their stores was a very good idea. People drift into the Magnolia Audio portion of the store and just look and listen. I guarantee that many walked away with a better idea and impression. Look at Beats audio. Got the attention of most young people. It's "cool", so young people flock to it. Why is Grado, and other's not doing the same thing with young popular musicians, actors, etc to help draw attention to their products? That is the mistake High-end audio makes. They discount the younger crowd. Listen to Beats headphones vs a mid level set of Grado (just an example). No contest. An they cost pretty much the same.
do enjoy |
Enitely too much snobbery in it's current state. I would assume most if it will die off and then encounter a renasance at some point in the future. |
So my 15 year old son had a bunch of his friends over for a birthday party. What did he do beforehand? Pull out a bunch of his albums (yes, vinyl) and laid them out so that they could choose what to listen to while they hung out and played video games. Gorillaz, The XX, Green Day, Coldplay, etc. He was interested in music from the time he was born, and I did my best - giving him my Dad's old Technics table, Infinity bookshelf speakers and Yamaha receiver. I bought him some of the records, and bought him a Project Debut Carbon when his older table died. My Dad did similarly for me - in fact, he bought me those Infinity speakers for my 13th birthday (some 35 years ago). I'm sure in part I'm just lucky. My daughter couldn't give a lick about a stereo... but she plays piano and sings beautifully. She gets songs stuck in her head and has to play them.
Separately from my personal experience, I've been hanging out on the Facebook vinyl communities - Vinyl Addiction, Vinyl Junkies, etc. I'm surprised at how many women are there, and how young they are. One really smart, active poster has to be about 16 years old. She's awesome. Most of the people there are resurrecting old mediocre tables and receivers - or maybe considering the Project Debut Carbon or Music Hall but are afraid of the prices. They're buying lots of thrift store and Craigslist vinyl. Great music from the 70's and 80's for $2 or $5 a pop. Jack White's Lazzaretto just broke a 20 year old record for vinyl sales in the first week. Many of these folks will step up to higher-end audio if there's a path for them. The future is good.
Do I have concerns? Well, yes. High-end companies keep going higher. $20K components, which are now common, are not exactly a stepping stone. But... For every Ferrari that a 20 year old lusts after, 10 VW GTI's will be sold. Artists are having a hard time making money on streaming music, but for fans finding great music has never been easier. It's not what it was once, but it is what it is now. |
I agree with Metman. There is a ton of really good new music. I am truly sorry if some have not found it. I completely agree that its harder to find. I too have turned to radio. Here in New Orleans I listen to WWOz and it has turned me on to so many new artists as well as older groups that I would have never heard in multiple genres of music. They also play vinyl which I love.
I do agree with others that most of main stream music is really bad. I can name some main stream bands that I enjoy but the list is short. I have no explanation for this. I think music sales seem to be generated off a very youg crowd and it shows. Its not even college kids as much as 13 years old.
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There are many good bands out there today but it seems for the most part we're shielded from it for some reason. Perhaps not enough advertising money in it for that demographic? I'm fortunate to live in an area that has a member funded radio station (wfuv) which exposed me to many excellent bands and artists I would have otherwise never heard of. I've long ago had it with the classic rock stations. There is also another station in Westchester county which is privately owned that is very good as well
I tend to think these type of stations are few and far between limiting us to what advertisers and promoters want us to hear |
My response to a few good points above...
Yeah, high end stereo stores suck. They will die off completely over time. Online is the future source if all high end audio. 5 years ago it was hard to buy any high end audio online. Now there's lots of it available. It will continue to go that direction.
No good modern music??? I laugh at that. We are experiencing an explosion of superb new music. More available than ever before. PM me if you want to be on my free email list for new notable music.
I agree completely that young people already have a cheap option for excellent sound quality. It's called an ipod. An ipod actually sounds very very good. Even compressed 256k mp3s sound great. And if you invest $90 in a decent pair of earbuds it can sound excellent. That's the ugly truth. |
There are many good bands out there today but it seems for the most part we're shielded from it for some reason. Perhaps not enough advertising money in it for that demographic? I'm fortunate to live in an area that has a member funded radio station (wfuv) which exposed me to many excellent bands and artists I would have otherwise never heard of. I've long ago had it with the classic rock stations. There is also another station in Westchester county which is privately owned that is very good as well
I tend to think these type of stations are few and far between limiting us to what advertisers and promoters want us to hear |
I would echo the remarks of Response 34. Talent has run out or is in hiding in pop music. Compare today's artists with Paul Simon, Chicago, Stevie Wonder, Fleetwood Mac. As a youth, why would I build a quality system to listen to Katie Perry? The only way the Grammy's can get any ratings is to get the old timers back to perform.
Also with Darkstar 1, dedicated audio stores were a magnet for youth and an informal education. Now too many competing devices. |
I've had reasonably decent audio/video equipment since I was about 30 years old, which is when the first of my four children was born. Three of them are now grown and on their own. I don't know why, but none of them has ever shown any interest in audio equipment at all. Also, they don't have much discretionary income, so it is just as well. |
Thanks to those who responded regarding my question about what defines "high end" in dollar terms. I understand, it's all relative. With that in mind, I agree with previous posters that many high-end companies will go out of business, but that's par for the course in most industries. How many automobile manufacturers existed in 1915?
What will maintain "high-end" audio into the future is the same human longing from which high-end audio was born - the desire not just to have music in one's life, but to connect with it. A person could take the position that there's no point in buying physical artwork anymore, when you can hang a high-definition screen on your wall that rotates through digital images of thousands of pieces of art for a fraction of the cost - but there's something about being up close to an original acrylic on canvas, the smell of it, the depth to the brush strokes, and the way it changes at different lighting angles. It's very organic, the way it affects the senses, and humans have been drawn towards objects of creation for thousands of years for that reason.
The average 18 year old may not appreciate an original Monet today, but there comes a day when they not only appreciate it, they seek it out. It brings us down to earth, like a good cup of coffee, or the smell that hits you when you walk into a florist's boutique.
It's the same with music...high-end audio isn't about the coolness of the devices, or the spec sheet - it's about letting us be right there as a musician's fingers glide across a guitar's nylon strings.
In fact, given what the millenial generation is about to go through, regarding debt overload, social upheaval, geopolitical turmoil, I see them (re)discovering a love for music reproduction as a way of escaping and finding their own sense of organic peace. Humans have loved music for centuries, and that will continue - and technology that gets us that much closer to the origin of the music will always be in demand. JMHO. |
Ask virtually any young person to name a high end audio manufacturer and most will answer "Bose" nuff said. I do agree with with Elizabeth for the most part but high end audio won't completely vanish but just become increasingly more and more of a niche hobby as the middle class muppets continue to be fleeced |
High End gear is audio gear that is built to sound better than mass market audio gear. Mass market gear is the stuff you can buy at Walmart, RadioShack, Best Buy (except for their Magnolia stuff), etc.
There is no hard line between mass market and high end gear. There is a grey area where people will disagree about which category a given component belongs in. |
I'm intended to use and purchase only solid OAK furniture for my dwelling for various reasons.
A marketting price for high-end furniture is important. It also substantially more pricey vs. composit furniture, but money spent for value and built quality.
If audio or any high-end isn't about value and built quality, than it's going to dissapear with last adict living as mentioned by previous posters.
That is why I say intention. I've had a lot of time to think about this as if first came up for me almost 25 years ago. High End audio is all about the intention of the product to be high end. Its not about price- quality has to do with quality, not price. Its not about performance (as much as we like to say that it is), as many products that have no high end aspirations can outperform a number of high end products, yet when we look at them, we can tell the difference because the intention is obvious. High End audio will go the way of the dodo when high end cars are gone. The same type of buyer operates in both markets. Ralph (Atmasphere), what are you doing, who is going to take over once you retire? If a buyer does not appear the company goes to its employees who are well-versed in the product. But even after retirement I expect to be busy. Watching the grass grow sounds like it could be boring... |
For me, whether the High End is gaining ground or dying is irrelevant. It would only matter if my livelihood was based on this industry. Otherwise.....I got my gear, I got my music, it's absolutely essential to me and my life but as to whether or not anyone else 'gets it' couldn't matter less to me. When I was a kid I absolutely skeeved shellfish. My father was fanatical about lobster and crab but I was too squeamish and couldn't handle it. He'd just shake his head and tell me that I didn't know what I was missing. When I got older I came to love lobster! I feel the same way about quality sound reproduction, if people can't find their way to appreciate it, that's THEIR problem! The industry will never completely disappear, at least not in my lifetime so I'm good! |
Harman Int'l trades on the NYSE and has doubled over the past year. |
Sell it all...buy a guitar and join a rock n' roll band.
Cheers! |
SAles trend data for key "high end audio" companies would be a good indicator of where its heading. I'd look for units sold more so than revenue. Never seen anything like this though. Pure "High End Audio" operates under the radar of the financial industry as a whole it seems. Are any listed on any stock exchanges? Sony, Yamaha, and other big Japanese makers do not usually get the high end audio seal of approval, but their trends are probably what matters most over the long haul.
How about a new high end audio stock market? A little government regulation would help keep everyone honest. There is NONE in pure high end audio. Just look around and extrapolate what that probably means is rally going on.... |
It's over. We are the last of a dying breed. |
