Help. System sounds thin and bright or harsh

To me the Harbeth M30.1 sounds warm.and slightly rolled off in the treble. I wouldn't be able to make it sound bright. If you couldn't figure out the problem to the brightness issue with the 30.1, perhaps try M30. It sounds excessively warm to me, much warmer than 30.1.

Replace your speakers with more sensitive floorstanders.

 

Sounds like you need to add sub(s) and treat your room or get full range speakers and treat your room. Also, if you toe your speakers in directly at your listening position that usually makes the highs sound more pronounce. Try less toe in. But most likely room treatment and increasing the bass will get you what you’re looking for. 

Hey AK g  that sounds very interesting. "digital edge" seems to hit home as to what I'm hearing along with "brightness" . Can't believe just the cables could make a dramatic difference.  My speaker cables are not cardas.  I got to look closer tomorrow, but they are short and fairly expensive around $1200 or so AND are bywire with low pass and high pass spade leads at each end. I double up the leads to use all of the cable.  Might try just the low pass and see if that changes the sound, then I might have a base point to try different cables.  Thanks..

Stands are Harbeth specific open wood, four posters.

I have the HARBETH 30.2 XD’s that developed a digital “edge” and excess brightness that needed to be fixed.

(A) The HARBETHs are driven by a very beefy high-current REGA OSIRIS integrated amp.
(B) High- end audio sources are two fold;

- REGA ISIS VALVE cdp/DAC, and

- BRYSTON BDP-1USB digital player/ streamer/ network player feeding its stablemate BRYSTON BDA-2 DAC

- each in an independent discrete 20A dedicated circuit.

- cables were the ethereal challenge and finsl piece of the fix,

THE FIX FOR ME: - Cables were upgraded to a better synergy match. Read on.

I had an all-NORDOST FREY Ag-over-Cu cables array from a prior system . With the introduction of the HARBETHs something was now off …I upgraded to an all-CARDAS array sequentially with an unusual final upgrade choice change in the speaker cables.

Was:All NORDOST FREY array.

NOW: an all-CARDAS array replacing an all-NORDOST FREY array,

CARDAS CLEAR XLR interconnects

CARDAS CLEAR / CARDAS CLEAR REFLECTION power cables

CARDAS CLEAR REFLECTION speaker cables

 

(1): Careful model experimentation of cables matter

I was still frustrated by the cables upgrade lacking until Josh Meredith at CARDAS gave me a tip to fix it. Let me explain.

My sequential cables upgrade was ICs first, then the power cables, and finally the speaker cables.Each step was a sequential audio performance upgrade , but the legacy of the shotgunned flat ribbon silver coated copper ferrule NORDOST FREY speaker cables was leaving a residual “edge” that was still “off” with that annoying (albeit sequentially progressively less …)

I was torn between upgrading to the full Monty CARDAS CLEAR speaker cables or choosing the one model down CARDAS CLEAR REFLECTIONs. Josh Meredith at CARDAS ( hubby of Chief Operating Officer Angela Cardas Meredith ) gave me the key valuable tip fix,

He explained that they had a similar listening room to me with a lot of glass windows creating more acute stubborn hard reflection points. They started with CARDAS CLEAR speaker cables as part of their top model all-CARDAS CLEAR array, but it was still a lingering-issue for some brightness and digital edge. They now swapped down one model to the CARDAS CLEAR REFLECTION speaker cables ..,, a “warmer” signature tonality cable model …and presto ….. their problem solved. He said it’s their “go-to” model in bright or reflective rooms.

So I now followed his advice and did the same ,,,, CARDAS CLEAR REFLECTION speaker cables …and presto … problem solved for me too. Who knew? Go figger.

(2);AUDIO: SPEAKER CABLES - From Alan Shaw (owner and designer of HARBETH in support of experimenting with established speaker cable diameters)

The following excerpt echoed that beefier diameter CARDAS speaker cables were a better match for me than my very thin and flat ribbon NORDOSTs for my HARBETHs,

AUDIO SPEAKER CABLES - From Alan Shaw

” … So, the moral of the story is this: the most important factor of the loudspeaker cable that you should select is the amount of metal in the cable core. More metal means lower resistance.

If the core is round (as most are) then the correlation is simple: the fatter the diameter of the metal core the better because the electrical resistance between amp and speakerwill be lower.

Thin and really thin cores should be avoided regardless of how exotic the metal material is claimed as the lack of metal in the core conductor will increase resistance. That will reduce amplifier damping, affect the frequency response of the speaker and give unpredictable results that will vary from amp/speaker combination.

Do not be fooled by the diameter of the external plastic sheath: what matters is the metal content of the core. The more the better, without exception….”

 

(3) SPEAKER STANDS FOR HARBETHs DO MATTER

Your HARBETG speakers can perform a lot better if placed on quality build “ light” open-form design stands as recommended by HARBETH, (e.g. Tontraeger ...I have custom build bespoke clones done by a pro woodworker) and also properly positioned from the back wall and side walls ( min .75 m and 1 m respectively).
The HARBETHs are a thin-walled speaker stand design that resonate like a sound board on a STEINWAY.or STRAD. These open design speaker stands facilitate this. Heavy mass and rigid speaker stands are an impediment and disservice to their design.

https://www.tontraeger-audio.com/lang/en/reference-stands.html
https://vinylsound.ca/products/tontraeger-m30-1-reference-stands-for-harbeth-monitor-30-1

 

FWIW …

yeah that could be the problem and ive had them for several years now 

The 30.1 are monitors and not designed for a cranked-up, full bass sound. 

Thanks guys much to think about

Room is 13'2" wide in a loft with side walls extending 11 feet back from the front wall where the speakers are close to. Behind the seating position about 8 feet from the speaker plane is wide open in a loft of a two story home. Ceilings is vaulted 10 to 11 feet high as it is angled. Carpet is pretty thick. No room treatments as of yet.

But as Avanti1960 speculated I USED to sit against the rear wall in the old listening room and still didn't have the warm, full sound. Bass shy for sure. Now its wide open behind me except for a four foot high wall behind the couch or seat.

As for output tubes, I have two sets aside from the stock harmonix something or others. One pair is a set of matched Tungsol 6SN7's from upscale audio. The much better set is from RCA circa 1940's 6SN7 GT's.  Much more sparkle and "life" compared to the Tungsols. Tungsols help a tiny bit with edgyness but rob the sound. They can't compare to the NOS RCA's. 

Still playing with speaker placement but since I mentioned that this problem has followed me from listening room to listening room it leads me to think the problem is component related?? Maybe bad synergy. Maybe speakers really aren't up to the task for high volume but still sound thin at low volume  Call me crazy but even with all this the system has never sounded better, so I am re-invigorated to pin this issue down and upgrade if need be.  Its nice cranking the volume without disturbing neighbors.

 

Apart from a pair of REL T5x, I'd look at the tubes. Any idea what 6SN7s are fitted?  RCA VT231 or Ken-Rad 6SN7 are on the warmer side.

in your old room was your back up against a wall and now you are sitting out in the room?  

sitting up against a wall reinforces bass quite a bit.  

is the new room more lively / less furnished / less treated with drapes and carpet?  

also settings can change when gear is moved around.  could you be using the inverted polarity outputs on your preamp or one of them?  

"Harsh" can be a result of out of spec distortion in any of the front end components. To rule that out you'll have to swap out each piece one at a time. If it solves the problem, then the offending piece can be sent for testing/service.

My first thoughts all centered around positioning. But it sounds like you have covered that. Secondly floor and wall treatments. It would be really helpful to us if you could upload photos of your system and venue to virtual systems under your UserID. Often, one look can completely redirect the discussion to some relavent factor. 

I have owned lots of Pass gear and the line that sounds more in line with your interests would be the XA line. They are much warmer and more natural. Tubes… everywhere and anywhere are appropriate.

 

Parasound preamps are not known to be particularly trebly or hot on the top… but a good tube preamp will definitely more to your liking… maybe used Audio Reseach or Conrad Johnson… Rouge can be a bit hot for tube gear.

 

Lots of thoughts.  I don’t think your equipment including the DAC is terribly warm.  That said, it is not like you have obnoxiously bright stuff either.  
 

Thinness can come from a few places.  Tell us more about the room.  Carpeting?  Wall treatment?  Pictures, windows, curtains, etc…. How far do you sit from the speakers?  
 

Do you have a subwoofer?  Those start rolling off above 50hz and it is going to sound thin at lower volumes.  A good sub could help that out potentially.  That along could be your issue with fullness.  Regarding edginess, That could be a single component.  Might be the JC2, might be the pass.  I have a Modwright UDP 205 here paired with AGD amp and preamp and it is sweet and musical.  
 

I would  try a sub.  Let’s here more about your room but you might borrow an amp or preamp from your retailer that you work with to see if it helps.  

Oh yeah, a good r2r dac, or even a ds dac with various “warm” filters (mine is a gustard r26, generally in NOS, which replaced an smsl -su 10) but those with more free cash can find something more expensive for a small improvement. 

Depending on how handy you are, or your free cash…

Either build or buy some acoustic panels.

good video on diy:

 

I'm going to say the Harbeths are just not cutting it. Small two way speakers seldom do (unless you like a lean sound). You need a bigger 3 way to get the warm midrange you are looking for. 

Also Ive never heard the Modwright modded Oppo but I had given up on digital until my latest R2R dac. Makes everything sound “right” even sh…y recording to a point of course. Waay more meat on the bones is how I would describe but still very detailed. No idea if it’s neutral but don’t care. 
 

I’ve never heard anyone say bright when describing anything Parasound. 

Also mofojo may be onto something about the loudness level. I listen to rock jazz blues and some classical. Great recordings sound good to sometimes stunning. But listening at low level right now and there's just no fullness. Something I've noticed for years but always chalked it up to the other listening room

Thanks for the replies.

Mofojo Sound is less edgy at low volume but still seems a thin NOT full at all.

Erik I am going to definitely pushem back to the wall. Very picky about set up and hate to touch when I THINK I got them dialed in.

Can't help but feel a component is letting me down. Ive heard the JC2 can be bright.

What kind of music do you listen to? If its anything with any amount of mid and low bass I think the Harbeth may be giving up on you at 80 db and 8ft away. I've never had a satisfying experience with loud music and small 2 way monitors without subs unless at fairly low volumes. Is it thin and harsh at lower volumes? 

 

All of your equipment including cables is known for being on the warmish side of neutral. 

That sounds a little far from the rear wall.

The right location varies on room size and how reflective it is.  If the room is very lively to mid and treble it will act as a tone control, making it sound like you lack enough bass.

Back the speakers up to the wall and consider damping down the mid/hi frequencies in the room as well.