Help me understand John Coltrane .... seriously.
It surely is among the best ever. I have a number of renditions, including my favorite which happens to be on an old London mono LP that I found at a thrift store many years ago. Every time I listen to it, I get goosebumps and it moves me to tears. Frank |
gdnrbob ... A friend of mine is an ex-studio musician (guitar). He loves opera. I couldn’t stand opera and I told him that it sounded like an old fat lady singing. He told me to buy a tape of a Puccini opera and play it in my car constantly. He said that opera is a lot like jazz, in that, appreciating it is a learned experience. Sure enough, eventually, I got into opera. On the dissonant/discordant sounds, one thing that helps, is while listening to it, (Coltrane’s Sheets of Sound, for instance), is to realize that he is in complete control of his instrument at all times. Then comes the appreciation for the talent. Then comes the appreciation for the music. It is the same thing for the wonderful control of a great soprano voice like Renata Tebaldi, Rita Streich, or Victoria de Los Angeles et al. There are times while listening to a beautiful aria that tears come to the eyes. Humans are totally amazing. Frank |
Coltrane gave me an appreciation for Miles. I saw Davis play towards the end of his career as the musical guest on Saturday Night Live. Good lord was he awful! I swore i would never listen to anything related to Miles again. EVER! Fast forward to 2015: a friend sold me about 6 crates of vinyl for $50.00 USD. In the crates were some miles and coltrane. Including "Kinda Blue" (original Columbia pressing on the 'eye dot' logo). I thought "what the hell?" I came away OMG! The clarity, enunciation, fluidity was there. It made me realize what i had missed all these years. This made me dive into Coltrane a little more. He does take a little effort, but the journey is well worth the trip. |
Miles Davis and John Coltrane both started with standard Jazz format with little improvisation involved. When they began to really establish their own identities, the really went their own ways. I, like many loved the late fifties, early sixties Jazz music. Coltrane transitioned slowly into a monster with his own style and form. Same for Miles. His work with Evans was outstanding. Bitches Brew blew most people away at first listen. People said "what the ??!!!???" is this? at first. MIles was influenced seriously by the Lady in his life at that time. So, in my opinion, when people want to transition into Jazz, they must be made to understand that Many Jazz musician like Rock, Pop, etc. First established themselves with the standard format (so they could get paid, feed their families and pay bills) before going their own way after they had a firm fan base. While in College becoming an Engineer, I took art and music classes. One class was a John Coltrane Class. Was not an easy "A". Trying to interpret his music and style was like trying to interpret painters. Some painters I still don't get. Some Coltrane I just didn't get. Still got the "A". Great teacher also. But, if everyone looked the same, sounded the same, dressed the same, talked the same, etc. This would be a very boring world. The fifties and sixties Jazz was to me outstanding. The seventies, it felt like it became more formatted (moving towards "smooth Jazz" format, not real Jazz to me.), and also serious drugs and the desire to establish their own identity came forward. Still, some great Jazz came from the seventies. enjoy |
I have
McCoy Tyner and
Keith Jarrett too LOL. |
I totally respect this question and the willingness to explore some Coltrane because one loves music. This might be one of the more random responses out there but... Through my teens (in the 1990's) I loved skateboarding and spent a lot of my youth engaging in enjoying it as a creative outlet. At the time most music in skate videos was punk, alternative, thrash etc then there was this one clip on a movie where this professional skateboarder was cruising along to a tune by Red Garland and John Coltrane. At first I didn't like it then after watching a couple more times it made perfect sense, the free flowing music with the free flowing activity. I've listened to Jazz ever since and now have quite a few Jazz records. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gizM-PuVnY0 To me it's more of a feeling. I know nothing about music really other than I know I like listening to a lot of it. With Jazz it's more visuals in my head and, like I say - a feeling I get. Like when I listen to the Coltrane track 'out of this world' (for example) it feels kind of like a meditation on life where I can imagine ordinary people doing what they do somewhere say like New York city with fast cuts to the imagery. Keep in mind that track does get a bit wild at points so might not be everyone's cup of tea. Anyway perhaps that is a little too random. Anyway, I really hope you find some stuff you like and no big deal if you don't really. Music is so subjective. Like many others have probably said 'kind of blue' by Miles Davis is an amazing starting point into Jazz. I actually like the trumpet more than the sax on the whole but for some reason I find Coltrane's music comforting. All the best! |
I'm not a big jazz fan so perhaps I shouldn't even comment here. I have listened to Coltraine and I don't "get" him either. I respect him for his creativity but he's just not my cup of tea. I have an issue with horns in general. I find trumpets waaaay to blarey (blary?) for my taste. Whether it's Miles or Satchmo who are both great artists, I just have to pass. I also have a hard time with trombones. Now saxaphone to me is a great instrument! It's much smoother and throatier than trumpet or trombone. I guess probably because it's a wind instrument. So while I respect great musicianship, jazz with horns is not my thing. I would much rather listen to piano or guitar with some sax thrown in for good measure. |
@garebear Dead & Co 11/6/19 played a bit of A Love Supreme within Dark Star. Have heard some of My Favorite Things sandwiched in elsewhere along the way in the past also. OP One never knows when, or if, lightening will strike. Enjoy the ride! Listened to the Beatles Revolution #9 since it first came out, only really 'got it' the last few years, yet Ornette Coleman's Free Jazz on first listen while driving late '80's. Sat parked in the driveway nearly 15 min to learn the name of the artist and piece. |
I think that one needs to be spiritually "thirsty" to understand Coltrane and of course be experienced in jazz. I did like Miles Davis from my esrly years of listening to jazz, but did not like at the beginning Coltrane. Now I can deeply enjoy and understand his music. By the way many following artists were essentially influenced by Coltrane including Charles Lloyd. Comparing Coltrane with Miles, I think that Davis still was essentially more wide and has essentially contributed in generating a number of other outstanding jazz artists. Both were non-odinary talents. |
Album: Coltrane Plays the Blues Almost falls under the category of easy listening. Go to many live concerts and you'll hear it playing in the background while you are trying to find your seat. The cuts:1.Blues to Elvin 2.Blues to Bechet Are familiar to many even if they don't know Coltrane "I don't know who does that tune, but I've heard it before" And like it! |
If the answer is yes, then why attempt to disseminate why...if the answer is no...same point. Why not? As I’ve said many times, art is not without context. Liking an expression and understanding the vector (where was it, where is it going?) are separate, but the latter can help you resonate and connect with the former. It's up to me how I spend my time right? I’m reminded of a friend, Lisa who took a class in Mesoamerican art. She had a really tough time with it until she took peyote, and boom, it all made sense. :) Best, E |
@erik_squires When you listen to Coltrane, do you enjoy the music. If the answer is yes, then why attempt to disseminate why...if the answer is no...same point. Most folks have favorite genres and artists...and those that they totally dislike. Personally, i have a hard time with gangster RAP, but i can accept that there are plenty of people who like it..even to exclusion of all other types of music. Do I wonder if i can understand it better, and therefore enjoy it more...no. Because, I am happy enough with all of the other numerous types of music that i do enjoy...and IF a gangster RAP piece comes along that I can feel in my soul...well then that's good too. Music is like that, it either makes you want to listen more, or it does not...nothing to learn there, IMHO. |
this is another provocative thread you authored. I enjoy the questions you ask in this manner. They really get you thinking. Also, I enjoy how you adroitly "stay out of it". You are setting up the question and if a debate exists, then, so be it. To be clear, my ignorance and desire to learn about this subject in my original post was genuine. I have very little to contribute other than to listen to the suggestions posted by those who could sympathize with my plight and show me a light forward. Honestly I neither expected so much material to come out, nor did I expect any debate, and especially did not expect downright anger at a question seeking knowledge. If we were in the 1700’s and I said "I don’t get this Bethoven guy, there’s no basso continuo anywhere... some one please help me understand the form of classical music..." I really don’t think I would have created so much debate. :-) Best, E |
@erik_squires , E, this is another provocative thread you authored. I enjoy the questions you ask in this manner. They really get you thinking. Also, I enjoy how you adroitly "stay out of it". You are setting up the question and if a debate exists, then, so be it. Back to the programming at hand... I really do enjoy "John Coltrane & Johnny Hartman" on Impulse (1995 Vinyl reissue). You might not believe it's Coltrane. Give it a whirl and maybe move deeper. Coltrane's not an easy ride from his middle period onward for me. |
If one listens to Ernie Watts and really digs what he/she hears then they “get” Coltrane. Coltrane’s spirit is all up in Ernie’s sound, yet Ernie’s style is all his own (an Ernie Watts solo, like a Tom Harrell solo, is a beautiful thing). So one doesn’t necessarily need to listen to Coltrane in order to get him. I pulled Ernie as one example. The more jazz one listens to the more likely one will come across an artist that Coltrane influenced (wait, didn’t Ernie play sax on Rolling Stones tours—oh yes). I get Coltrane that way, too. You might get him more than you realize, depending on what you listen to. |
Don't worry about John Coltrane. Listen to music you enjoy; if that takes you to J.C., fine; of not, that's fine too. I don't like heavy metal but I don't worry or feel sorry for not liking it and I make no attempt to try and understand it. It is not for me. Period. There is no law starting that you must like John Coltrane. |
This thread has been one of my favorites on AG. Really great, and people sgarung love of music and not going “violent-nerd” on kit. Thanks to all for the kind words. Truthfully I have had little to do with how good this thread is besides asking for help overcoming one of my own shortcomings. All the credit of the value and content of this thread goes to everyone who has contributed. Thank you, Erik |
skyscraper, Any way that you can write a manual how to stay classy and simple in every conversation? It is a good thread, indeed. bdp24, I tried Ornette Coleman, after your mention, on the youtube last night. Thanks, I do have to say I like it much more than John Coltrane music I have heard. I may be going backwards, it seems. |
I don't get Coltrane completely. I don't really get into A Love Supreme and I've tried. I do like Bags and Trane, Jazz, Plays the Blues and the record he did with Hartman, another with Burrell. He get's out there sprinkling in some of the other side of himself occasionally that keeps it interesting and compelling but is mostly melodic on the above. I do love Coltrane's ballad work and really really love Alice's work across the board. |
Erik, this article I have posted already in jazz for afc.thread, you may take a look there sometimes, at least it has some very good music. On Coltrane, you might find it interesting; http://www.openculture.com/2017/04/the-tone-circle-john-coltrane-drew-to-illustrate-the-theory-behind-his-most-famous-compositions-1967.html Stephon Alexander, cosmologist and author of The Jazz of Physics, talks math and music, John Coltrane and Einstein. https://youtu.be/0nhIEO59OnY I am not sure if understanding is related with liking, so will post few albums with Coltrane that are 'easier' to listen to https://youtu.be/sCQfTNOC5aE https://youtu.be/8RRV3dzOOyY https://youtu.be/ya1xRmRBWUQ https://youtu.be/dPGmmLUwNvk https://youtu.be/uue1io35msQ |
This thread has been one of my favorites on AG. Really great, and people sgarung love of music and not going “violent-nerd” on kit. I’ve been a jazz head since 7th grade and JC remains a favorite. But my unles, an accomplished and well-regarded bass player, especially swing, hates hard bop. So ymmv. Eric, I love these suggestions, particularly those who speak of how music grows on you. I felt the same about Sun Ra as you did with JC i think, and have now come to enjoy SR, though it still depends on mood. However, in the classical realm, no one makes my skin crawl like many Benjamin Britten pieces do. Thanks for asking the question. Great discussion resulted. |
It took me quite a while to “get it” as well. I first stayed with things like Kind of Blue which he accompanied on. Then I went with A Love Supreme, but, it didn’t really speak to me. Then I bought Blue Train. I was also listening to a lot of Wayne Shorter at the time. Slowly it started to click. The quick runs no longer sounded random. Then I found Lush Life. This is a delicious mellow album that is very easy to greet you. I went back to Giant Steps because I started craving more avant garde sounds like Eric Dolphy and Ornette Coleman. I came across a fantastic piece on YouTube that explains the Coltrane Changes musically and mathematically. I highly recommend it. For some reason I can’t post a link here, but, it’s titled The Most Feared Song In Jazz, Explained on YouTube |
