Help me understand John Coltrane .... seriously.

I have been passionately listening to jazz music -- primarily hard bop and fusion -- for almost fifty years.  I have enormous John Coltrane and Miles Davis catalogs.  Although there are some Miles Davis avant-garde titles that "speak another language" to me, I have never, to paraphrase Will Rogers, met a John Coltrane title that I did not like, indeed, love.  Put quite simply, the man is the greatest musician in history.  But he just might not be everyone's cup of tea.  So I will not recommend any titles to you.  I will state, however, that A Love Supreme is without a doubt Coltrane's best work.   

I can't connect with John Coltrane either. When I hear many sax. players I instantly know its them by the way they sound but Coltrane leaves me cold. There are other musicians/composers whose music doesn't touch me too, such as Delius, J.S. Bach. I guess its each to his own. 

To go back, yes, we have connection to some artists and not to others, but I feel, strongly, that what we think of as just who WE are is learned.

Knowledge and exposure to it and art changes who you are at a fundamental level, so hearing early Coltrane, and who he was answering can change my ideas and your listening entirely.

So, while I appreciate that I'm not alone, I hope others won't mind if I try a little harder. :)

Best,


Erik

As a Davis / Coltrane fiend, I second a lot of the advice on easing into Coltrane through the First Great Quintet years (55-58).  Workin is my fave of the Prestige recordings. Kind Of Blue speaks for itself. I’d suggest one other approach: the Thelonious Monk/Coltrane works, which were in the same period (56-57).  The Monk&Coltrane The Complete Riverside Recordings are available on CD for about $10... a easy intro.  Thelonius Monk With John Coltrane is about $10 on CD as well. The T. Monk Quartet with Coltrane at Carnegie Hall is a nice extra.  Monk was a significant influence on both Davis and Coltrane, and (IMO) his focused approach to bebop is a wee bit like Coltrane’s focused approach to free jazz. Once Coltrane left Davis, his early work is the most accessible.  Blue Train and Soultrane don’t get the same attention that Giant Steps and Lush Life do.  Coltrane Plays The Blues is a good listen. Anything after A Love Supreme gets...challenging. Both Directions At Once and Blue World are kinda the bridges to ALS.  Ascension is an acquired taste.  In all, Coltrane’s evolution is a lot like Davis’ - at a certain point, the WTF factor sets in for me. YMMV.  Bin voyage!

For what it is worth, I had the same experience and mentioned it to a composer friend....he simply explained that JC was simply looking for God....changed everything for me

I would recommend starting with Soul Eyes or After the Rain.  I feel if neither of those grab you then perhaps it's something that just isn't your thing.  Best to spend your time listening to things you like, no?

Check out some Sun Ra 

With Coltrane... You either get it or you don’t his music moves you, takes you to a different place, I’ll leave you confused. Sit in the dark listen to love supreme and you’ll get it

efort,

"Sit in the dark listen to love supreme and you’ll get it"

Trying, after many years, right now. I hope I catch it.

Eric, lot of good advice here. I started to think, can’t much of the discussion be applied to classical music as well as jazz? 20 years ago I could not ‘get’ Mahler or Shostakovich, but as I listen now, with a 20 year more educated (experienced?) ear they are wonderful!

Agree with "My Favorite Things" and "Naima." Both are available on Atlantic's "Best of John Coltrane" album. Especially love "My Favorite Things."

One of the first albums I ever bought, way back in the early 70s.

Turned me into a music lover.

I know how your feel, I experienced the same thing when getting into Jazz . So what I did was listen to some of his recordings that I knew the melody and then listened to Johns version. Although he is pretty much all over the map when he plays and how he interprets the song, one can still appreciate the way he does it. What really got me into John was listening to Miles Davis  Kind of Blue- a very basic Jazz lp that everyone, at any level of Jazz can listen to and get into.. I never get tired of listening to that album!
 Happy listening!!

I studied tenor sax from Grades 4 through 12 and my music teacher was a retired jazz musician.  Coltrane is what is known as a "progressive" jazz players.  Progressives use a lot of atonality, which can sound like they're playing the wrong notes, and they also don't strictly observe things like rhythm and meter.  Coltrane got more progressive as the years went on. I used to imitate him by. just hitting sax keys at random, which my bandmates thought was pretty funny. I much prefer "traditional" jazz players who are more melodic like Stan Getz on tenor, Paul Desmond on alto and Gerry Mulligan on baritone.  But if you're still interested in exploring Coltrane, he did an album with Duke Ellington - quartet of piano, sax, bass and drums -- which is about as accessible as Coltrane gets.  

"...I feel, strongly, that what we think of as just who WE are is learned."

John Erik Locke! Tabula rasa auditoria.

When it comes to the instruments of wind, I found out that masters at Guča Festival play no second fiddle to those we mention here.

Unless you truly dread it for non-musical reasons, which you will not after about an hour of following the festival routine, you will never have to convince yourself why you like it. It is exactly the opposite from the mystery of the dim room loneliness with a glass of an expensive drink in hand.

"Progressives use a lot of atonality, which can sound like they're playing the wrong notes, and they also don't strictly observe things like rhythm and meter."

Hmmmm, that explains it.

I think they are aware of the rhythm and meter but they are allowing themselves to not adhere to traditional rules regarding rhythm and meter.
I can't tell you how many times I've been listening to a jazz group that I was sure was totally lost regarding the form, only to have them suddenly come back together and prove me wrong.

"...I've been listening to a jazz group that I was sure was totally lost regarding the form, only to have them suddenly come back together and prove me wrong."

Are you right about being wrong, or they just could not keep it up all the time and found their form from time to time?

One has to work his way up to Coltrane. Start with maybe Charlie Parker, and once Coltrane had been assimilated, give Ornette Coleman a listen. Wild, baby!

It took me quite a while to “get it” as well. I first stayed with things like Kind of Blue which he accompanied on. Then I went with A Love Supreme, but, it didn’t really speak to me. Then I bought Blue Train. I was also listening to a lot of Wayne Shorter at the time. Slowly it started to click. The quick runs no longer sounded random. Then I found Lush Life. This is a delicious mellow album that is very easy to greet you. I went back to Giant Steps because I started craving more avant garde sounds like Eric Dolphy and Ornette Coleman. I came across a fantastic piece on YouTube that explains the Coltrane Changes musically and mathematically. I highly recommend it. For some reason I can’t post a link here, but, it’s titled The Most Feared Song In Jazz, Explained on YouTube 

This thread has been one of my favorites on AG. Really great, and people sgarung love of music and not going “violent-nerd” on kit. 
I’ve been a jazz head since 7th grade and JC remains a favorite. But my unles, an accomplished and well-regarded bass player, especially swing, hates hard bop. So ymmv. 

Eric, I love these suggestions, particularly those who speak of how music grows on you. I felt the same about Sun Ra as you did with JC i think, and have now come to enjoy SR, though it still depends on mood. 
However, in the classical realm, no one makes my skin crawl like many Benjamin Britten pieces do. 
Thanks for asking the question. Great discussion resulted. 

Erik, please pardon this brief aside to Glupson who asked up-post if I'd ever purchasd the SACD version of the Stone's Let It Bleed. Glupson, I ordered the SHM-CD SACD (Japanese Pressing, Single Layer) today. Your question was a reminder I'd been remiss in this matter. 

Now back to Coltrane.

Mike

Erik, this article I have posted already in jazz for afc.thread, you may take a look there sometimes, at least it has some very good music.

On Coltrane, you might find it interesting;
http://www.openculture.com/2017/04/the-tone-circle-john-coltrane-drew-to-illustrate-the-theory-behind-his-most-famous-compositions-1967.html

Stephon Alexander, cosmologist and author of The Jazz of Physics, talks math and music, John Coltrane and Einstein.
https://youtu.be/0nhIEO59OnY

 I am not sure if understanding is related with liking, so will post few albums with Coltrane that are 'easier' to listen to

https://youtu.be/sCQfTNOC5aE
https://youtu.be/8RRV3dzOOyY
https://youtu.be/ya1xRmRBWUQ
https://youtu.be/dPGmmLUwNvk
https://youtu.be/uue1io35msQ

I don't get Coltrane completely.  I don't really get into A Love Supreme and I've tried.  I do like Bags and Trane, Jazz, Plays the Blues and the record he did with Hartman, another with Burrell.  He get's out there  sprinkling in some of the other side of himself occasionally that keeps it interesting and compelling but is mostly melodic on the above.  I do love Coltrane's ballad work and really really love Alice's work across the board.

skyscraper,

Any way that you can write a manual how to stay classy and simple in every conversation?

It is a good thread, indeed.

bdp24,

I tried Ornette Coleman, after your mention, on the youtube last night. Thanks, I do have to say I like it much more than John Coltrane music I have heard. I may be going backwards, it seems.

This thread has been one of my favorites on AG. Really great, and people sgarung love of music and not going “violent-nerd” on kit.

Thanks to all for the kind words.  Truthfully I have had little to do with how good this thread is besides asking for help overcoming one of my own shortcomings.

All the credit of the value and content of this thread goes to everyone who has contributed.

Thank you,


Erik

Is this question just to keep this forum alive?  Seriously?  His question is tantamount to someone asking us to teach him not to hate something, but through an on-line platform. Right.  As a MASSIVE Coltrane fan, I won't even do this question the justice of saying any more than what I've already said.

jaredpurdy,

You told him and in what way.

You rock!

I mean, You Jazz!

Don't worry about John Coltrane. Listen to music you enjoy; if that takes you to J.C., fine; of not, that's fine too. I don't like heavy metal but I don't worry or feel sorry for not liking it and I make no attempt to try and understand it. It is not for me. Period. There is no law starting that you must like John Coltrane.

Miles criticized Coltrane for playing too long and too much. But I think that was in the early days. I bet Bill Evans was thinking, dude chill and make it musical! 

erik_squires

Have you found a JC  starting point (album)?

Happy Listening!

If one listens to Ernie Watts and really digs what he/she hears then they “get” Coltrane. Coltrane’s spirit is all up in Ernie’s sound, yet Ernie’s style is all his own (an Ernie Watts solo, like a Tom Harrell solo, is a beautiful thing). So one doesn’t necessarily need to listen to Coltrane in order to get him. I pulled Ernie as one example. The more jazz one listens to the more likely one will come across an artist that Coltrane influenced (wait, didn’t Ernie play sax on Rolling Stones tours—oh yes). I get Coltrane that way, too. You might get him more than you realize, depending on what you listen to.

Hi Eric
If it must be with Coltrane Quartet, it must definitely be Ballads, with McCoy Tyner, Jimmy Garrison and Elvin Jones. It's appetizing.
Best regards

''Ballads''
and Coltrane with Johnny Hartman.
These are the most accessible i.m.o.

I'm not going to tell you where to start, but figuratively and literally Chasing the Trane will chase your troubles away.

@erik_squires ,  E, this is another provocative thread you authored.  I enjoy the questions you ask in this manner.  They really get you thinking.  Also,  I enjoy how you adroitly "stay out of it".  You are setting up the question and if a debate exists, then, so be it. 

Back to the programming at hand...

I really do enjoy "John Coltrane & Johnny Hartman" on Impulse (1995 Vinyl reissue).   You might not believe it's Coltrane. Give it a whirl and maybe move deeper.  Coltrane's not an easy ride from his middle period onward for me.

this is another provocative thread you authored. I enjoy the questions you ask in this manner. They really get you thinking. Also, I enjoy how you adroitly "stay out of it". You are setting up the question and if a debate exists, then, so be it.

To be clear, my ignorance and desire to learn about this subject in my original post was genuine. I have very little to contribute other than to listen to the suggestions posted by those who could sympathize with my plight and show me a light forward.

Honestly I neither expected so much material to come out, nor did I expect any debate, and especially did not expect downright anger at a question seeking knowledge.

If we were in the 1700’s and I said "I don’t get this Bethoven guy, there’s no basso continuo anywhere... some one please help me understand the form of classical music..." I really don’t think I would have created so much debate. :-)


Best,


E

@erik_squires  When you listen to Coltrane, do you enjoy the music. If the answer is yes, then why attempt to disseminate why...if the answer is no...same point. Most folks have favorite genres and artists...and those that they totally dislike. Personally, i have a hard time with gangster RAP, but i can accept that there are plenty of people who like it..even to exclusion of all other types of music. Do I wonder if i can understand it better, and therefore enjoy it more...no. Because, I am happy enough with all of the other numerous types of music that i do enjoy...and IF a gangster RAP piece comes along that I can feel in my soul...well then that's good too. Music is like that, it either makes you want to listen more, or it does not...nothing to learn there, IMHO.

Miles Davis "Someday my prince will come" is fine with Coltrane making contributions on the main title and "Teo". This is as far as I will go with JC.. Very good recording too.

If the answer is yes, then why attempt to disseminate why...if the answer is no...same point.

Why not? As I’ve said many times, art is not without context. Liking an expression and understanding the vector (where was it, where is it going?) are separate, but the latter can help you resonate and connect with the former.  It's up to me how I spend my time right?

I’m reminded of a friend, Lisa who took a class in Mesoamerican art. She had a really tough time with it until she took peyote, and boom, it all made sense. :)

Best,

E

Like a lot of jazz dudes he does speak a different language. I've generally found I either get an artist or I don't from the get-go and no amount of "education" is going to help me "get it". Either is fine, plenty of other stuff to check out.

@fjblair.  +1
like I said before, it’s all music...and it’s all good.

Jerry Garcia loved his jazz and you can hear it in his own playing. I am paraphrasing here a bit but I once read where Garcia said something like this  ; " Listening to John Coltrane was like taking a cool cold glass of water ''.  There you have it …... 

I'm not crazy about all of Coltrane's music but Blue Train and Somethin' Else are great places to start.

HTH

Album: Coltrane Plays the Blues 
Almost falls under the category of easy listening.
Go to many live concerts and you'll hear it playing in the background while you are trying to find your seat.

The cuts:1.Blues to Elvin  
               2.Blues to Bechet 
Are familiar to many even if they don't know Coltrane

"I don't know who does that tune, but I've heard it before"  And like it!

OK, starting off with Ballads now.  So far no problems.

I just saw this and am listening to Ballads, too.
Coltrane was never my fav either, but I always wondered why so many sing praises, so here I go...
Bob

Hmm, McCoy Tyner.
Now I have another artist to listen to.
B

@gdnrbob

Love MT, you've heard Keith Jarrett too, right?