Has anyone used the new Innuos 2.0 Sense music app? Compared it to Roon?

If you don’t use DSP Roon can easily be both core and end point. I used my Zenith for both and DSP with no issues a couple of years ago. My experience anyway. 

@thyname Thanks once again. What I found out was that Innuos's Squeezelite version only supports up to DSD 64. I can clearly hear the difference between 64 and 128. Anyway, I'm now using Zenith as the 'regular' Roon core, and it works like a charm. Thanks for your assistance.

By the way, I tried to swap back and forth between sonicTrasporter i5 and Zenith as Roon cores, and honestly I can't tell any difference. They both sound fantastic. Also, maybe I'm in the minority here but I actually prefer Roon 1.8 (SQ-wise) to Sense 2.0. It is a bit fuller and I kinda like it. Sense is probably more neutral/accurate, and I can see how someone else might prefer it over Roon. Both are excellent, it's really a matter of preference at this point.

Now I'm trying to figure out how to 'merge' (not replace) music from sonicTransporter's Roon core to Zenith such that it does not replace what I already have in Zenith, but simply add on top of what already exists. 

I posted my query on Roon forums ...

Hi @arafiq 

When you use Zenith as Roon Core, do you also use it as a streamer? In other words, USB out from your Zenith to your DAC?

I terms of copying your music in your SonicTransporter to the internal SSD in your Zenith, you do it via the InnuOS interface (switch Roon toggle button off first). Leave the SonicTransport in the network. Then use the “NAS” import method via InnuOS. 

This will copy what is in SonicTransport without touching what is already in the Zenith. Once all this complete, you can switch back to Roon

Thanks @thyname . I tried the solution you posted above, but for whatever reason the files won't show up in Roon. I tried another workaround using Soundiiz that worked quite well actually. From within Roon, I exported the playlists and albums into a Soundiiz-compatible CSV format. Then using Soundiiz, I imported them into Qobuz. All my playlists and albums now show up in Roon. Your help is much appreciated.

A quick update to this thread. Innuos Sense has just released the 2.2.2 update and it sounds even better folks. To my ears the sound quality improvement is not minor, but rather impressive across the board. Innuos owners you’re in for a treat. It’s so wonderful to get a nice upgrade in sound quality for free! Love it. 

Hi @grannyring and everybody else:

Currently I use Roon, but would like to get the better sound I have heard people are able to get from Innuos Sense and even from Qobuz going direct into the DAC. I like Roon because of its ease of use and its database handling features but also need its DSP functionality. I am prepared to give up on Roon's database handling and overall ease of use but need a DSP function for sure with my system. Is there any way of getting an Innuous server to perform any DSP without engaging Roon within the Innuos server?

It seems to me from reading the Innuos manuals and website that I might be out of luck in my quest. But just thought I would check. Also perhaps there are other hardware or software options that folks may know of.

Thank you

No DSP with Innuos Sense. Period.

May I ask, why do you NEED DSP? Headphone user?

I see, too bad about the lack of DSP with Innuos. 

I find it essential for my Linkwitz system to manage down the bass output that would otherwise overload my room with bass.

Thanks

No chance you can manage the bass output on subwoofer level? On the crossovers? or must it happen on the digital source level for some reason?

Yes Roon is garbage. 

Hi @thyname. Attenuating the bass drivers by 5/10/15 db across the bass driver spectrum alone is easily managed with Rothwell attenuators. But unfortunately I have historically felt that a little bit of attenuation is also necessary at the lowest end of the lower mid-range driver spectrum.  And that makes the situation a bit complicated as this attenuation cannot be applied evenly across the whole of this lower mid driver’s spectrum. In future am going to experiment with 15 db attenuators on the bass drivers alone (currently I use only 10 db Rothwell attenuators on the bass drivers and then add a bit more attenuation on top using Roon DSP) and see if that proves adequate and then maybe I will be able to revisit the Innuos.

Unfortunately the ASP crossovers are hardwired by Linkwitz and I can’t tinker with those.

Thanks for the ideas though.

Jeryg123....

I like "garbage"..... works for me.....and very well at that....

Cheers....

IME Roon dsp not very good. Best sound quality attained with all user accessible settings off, therefore, no volume leveling, analysis, anything and everything set to off. These processes are purely for convenience in Roon, if one is serious about dsp with high sound quality use HQPLayer dsp, simply on totally different level from Roon dsp. Ask yourself why Roon has HQPlayer embedded within Roon? Because they know what I state here is true.

The one issue with HQPlayer vs Roon dsp is that HQPlayer will require higher power processor in streamer vs Roon, one probably needs at least Intel I7, I5 doesn't cut it.

@sns 

Trouble with that is that the more powerful the processor the higher the noise level…

The fundamental difference between Roon and InnuOS is in philosophy: whereas Roon believes in high powered, complex sound shaping, InnuOS pursues minimalist and purist design: low powered processors and maximum attention to suppressing RMI/EMI and ground level noise intrusion. This has direct implications on software coding: Sense is designed to minimise CPU usage whereas Roon sees CPU usage as uncritical and uses complex plug-ins such as DSP to increase user friendliness.

Very well said @antigrunge2 

I too believe Sense to be better than Roon.   The only feature which tempts me back to Roon is DSP.  We all need a tone control now and then.

I did ask Innuos if they plan to add such a feature, and the reply from Head of Sales was thus:

One of the reasons Sense sounds so good is because it is so light on hardware processing. Put simply, the more processing running in the background, the more noise is generated with negative impact on sound quality. This is why, for the moment, we have no plans to add DSP in Sense. That said, our development team is constantly looking for ways to improve our products, so we may eventually find a way to implement DSP with neglidgeable impact in sound quality.

“Trouble with that is that the more powerful the processor the higher the noise level…”
@antigrunge2

Exactly! One of the reasons why I prefer Aurender’s Conductor app over ROON. And some folks wonder why Aurender is not supporting ROON :-)

I too switched from Roon to Sense.  One possible solution to your DSP is to just add a miniDSP in your signal path between pre & amp.  Yes yes I know this is an extra A/D-D/A but using the miniDSP-HD version I have been unable to hear the difference noting that I have the miniDSP due to my multi-amplified horn system that that I use the mini for both crossover and volume slope of the multiple amplified horns so that they stay matched at all volumes. 

I get the logic of low power processor, minimal processing equals lower noise. But I and many others, specifically many individuals over at audiophilestyle.com have taken another path. Specifically, high power processors in custom build windows based platforms assembled with parts spec'd for lowest latency, noise, proprietary Linux OS and music players such as my Euphony OS and Stylus player. With my current setup, monitoring cpu usage, the highest percentage I ever see using Roon (every user accessible processing switch in off position) is 3%, usually 2% on only two of the cores, this thing is barely idling. In comparisons of this exact custom build streamer using inferior LPS to my present LPS, the two previous owners using it with Roon found it superior to Aurender W20SE running Conductor player, both only sold after direct comparison to Taiko Extreme which they purchased. The Conductor player, based on many reviews is top flight.

So, this brings to mind the idea that a higher power processor barely idling may in fact induce less noise into motherboards than the lower powered processor working at higher percentage of it's potential. Windows based motherboards also have theoretical advantage of powering processor and motherboards each with dedicated LPS, thus, greater isolation of processor to motherboard, resistance to induced processor noise. At present I prefer using Roon to my available proprietary Stylus player.

My take is a setup optimized for Roon can compete with or exceed sound quality of proprietary player. Also, mentioned in another thread I'm not done with experimentation of Stylus vs Roon, need JCAT USB XE board to compete on more level playing field.

The off the shelf streamers do have the advantage of optimal music player/hardware integration. Roon requires more diy integration since it is universal player. I can only say the SQ I'm presently getting with Roon competes with best vinyl I've heard in well over thirty years involvement in high end audio. Universal condemnation of Roon SQ undeserved, yes, it may not end up being my final solution, but the present solution gives me little motivation to move in another direction, in fact I'm further upping game with present setup.

I'll also mention Roon dsp far inferior to HQPlayer, for those with need for dsp, HQPLayer is way to go. The issue is one needs a high power processor in order to run HQP, very processor intensive, and the reason it plays on different level than the Roon, Roon dsp only for convenience. I've played with both dsp, and believe me. HQP plays on entirely different level, and this only with pcm. I've yet to delve into DSD conversions which are reportedly far superior. By the way, even with PCM HQP pretty impressive, still preferring Roon up to to this point.

It is my belief that no one product based on its implementation and execution is designed for everyone. Regardless of what path we have chosen, the single most important thing in our selection is to access what we like in an audio product. Some audiophiles love to get their hands dirty and don’t mind if there’s an interruption in music playback while they figure out what’s wrong..LOL! Other audiophiles want nothing to do with such troubleshooting and configuration. We are blessed to be living in times where we get to enjoy access to infinite selection of music and gear, just pick your poison and be merry.

@musiclover1 Thats okay bet you have an Roon core also. 

@sns,

other than CPU noise clocking matters at least as much. Depending on the connection chosen you need to either clock the dac in USB asynchronous mode or both dac and server with superior clocking through the same device. Unfortunately all connections between dac and server as well as clock connections have their own jitter/noise issues so that an optimisation only on the cpu is insufficient. Roon in most implementations adds a further device as you need renderer and server, further exacerbating the clocking issue. This is why current design thinking seems to converge to integrated server/dac/attenuator solutions with external power supplies

@jerryg123 

What do you eat for breakfast? Your sense of humor is off the charts 🤣

@lalitk after I ran a 10k I had a mushroom omelet with a cup of herbal tea. Wink wink. 

@jerryg123 

Any low frequency rumblings?

@antigrunge2 I agree clocking is critical. Attention to that paid through JCAT Net Card XE, powered by external LPS, this card has top flight clock and dedicated power supply. Sonore OpticalModule and OpticalRendu also have upgraded clocks, power supplies, finally Amanero usb board in dac first rate in these regards as well. Further upgrade to Sonore coming in form of Finisar optical transcievers, measurably lower jitter and custom build optical cable with reportedly lower reflection which should also attend to jitter. No doubt getting the clocks right is large part of providing for more analog like SQ.

Roon has a secret built in most never have tried ,HQ player 

you need a fast computer or server ,but it is fantastic. Ifyou can dedicate some hard drive ,and processor speed you just down load it and just click enable 

and you just operate it from a app 2 weeks for free still 

its a very powerful program.

@antigrunge2 none worse than the guy filling diapers in DC.

I understand that there’s more than one way to skin a cat. However the Innuos (And I believe also Aurender) approach of lower CPU power/processing is very appealing and seems successful for them. Intuitively more logical to me.

Charles

jerryg123

Nope....INTEL NUC with a separate LPS....was using a INNOUS ZEN prior.....

Cheers...

There is a real religious war going on about CPU power. It kind of reminds me of SETvs SS wars in the ‘70s. What needs to be appreciated, is that the effect of each approach has direct impact on synergy throughout the system. For those who care, the Taiko Extreme Thread on WBF explores this in endless and glory detail. Overloading a low power server with Roon is not the way to go. @charles1dad: +1

@antigrunge2 For those who care, the Taiko Extreme Thread on WBF explores this in endless and glory detail. Overloading a low power server with Roon is not the way to go. @charles1dad: +1

I have a friend who owns the Taiko Extreme and he’s absolutely thrilled with it. I trust his judgment and impressions without reservation.  So I am not questioning that proper high power CPU management can’t be successful. It is just that the low power CPU approach has considerable merit with regard to lowering noise.

Charles,

If I were not playing some 1200 ripped CDs off my drive in the Zenith 3 and simply streaming, then I would buy the new Pulsar for sure. However, lately I find I am playing more HD Qobuz files now as they sound superior to my rips! So maybe I will just go 100% streaming at some point in the future. One day perhaps.

I know your getting a plan together for streaming and want it somewhat simple, uncluttered without an abundance of small boxes and wires. I suggest something like this.

1) put your modem/router right next to your audio rack. Make sure it is a good modem/router like my Netgear Nighthawk. Do what you need to make this happen.
2) power this modem/router with a nice linear power supply. I have a Keces p8 that powers my modem and audiophile switch. Just one power supply power both. Less boxes than buying numerous LPSs. My P8 can power three separate units.
3) the digital power cables used off of your power supply are very important. Get goods ones. I made double and triple shielded ones for my rig. They make a sonic difference.
4) use good ethernet cables. I have tried all manner of good ones from SABLON, SOTM Cat7 and others. The best I have owned are my Ethernet Acoustics Muon cables.

Here is my current network chain;

Netgear Nighthawk Modem/wireless router - Network Acoustics Muon ethernet - Network Acoustics Rubicon switch - Network Acoustics Muon filter - Innuos Zenith MK3 - Tchernov Ultimate USB cable - Tron Atlantic Signature dac. My Keces P8 powers the modem and NA Rubicon switch.

The Network Acoustics filter is amazing. It is passive and thus does not take power or a power cord. It is tiny and easily hides away!

If I get a Pulsar, then all would stay the same in my network and I would just replace the Zenith.

Just one look at a well performing streaming front end.

Not saying the above set up is best.  It is not.  It is natural sounding, minimal boxes and reasonable money for the level of sound quality….excluding the cost of my particular dac.  

@audioman58 The embedded HQPlayer is impressive, far superior to Roon for dsp. Incredible number of settings, haven't even begun to explore many, although the settings I've used have provided very high quality sound. HQP just sounds a bit artificial with the settings I've used. DSD conversion is reportedly the way to go, requires great amount of processor power.

I agree Roon MAY not be best way to stream with lower power processor, will certainly induce more noise vs good proprietary player.

I admit my streaming path virtually unknown with audiogon posters, audiophilestyle and whatsbestforum more experimental with streaming equipment, plug n play is the favored mode here.

Agree with grannyring advice above, I've done much experimenting with entire network chain, having modem and router or switch near system provides better SQ. Rather recent poster here went so far as purchasing second ISP line in order to get his setup closer to system, and remove possible contamination from wifi, not sure he's posted a followup. I'm curious since considering another try with audiophile switch replacing present Nighthawk router powered with LPS. I suspect the router is weak line in my network, routers with wifi noisy devices, looking to segregate wifi from system. Another nice upgrade to networks is Broadcomm chip modem vs inferior Intel chip, no telephony on modem used for system, LPS for modem.

Simple is nice, not necessarily best , smps not good, lps on every active component required, this alone may require a few extra boxes. Top flight rendering in streamer or streaming dac is required for simple, problem is vast majority of streamers don't do topflight rendering, reason I'd likely go for streaming dac if I was going  simple with highest quality audio. All ethernet is way to go for simple, high quality streaming, streaming dac allows that. Based on my research, the only streamers offering best of best rendering are the Taiko Extreme, Wadax, Aurender W20SE just slightly inferior to the Wadax and Taiko .Innuous provides very nice rendering via outboard usb, believe it built into Statement.  Ports providing rendering must be isolated from motherboard for best performance, far too many don't. Bottom line for best simple setup is one of these topflight streamer going directly to dac or streaming dac in which case streamer doesn't matter as much since it will only be acting as server.

The above illustrates what I'd consider for highest quality streaming that competes with very nice vinyl setups. Not saying one can't attain fine SQ with lesser setups.

I have my isp line on custom shielded Dc cables all LPS and respectable after market power cords as well as fiber optic after the router to further isolate noise from Sonore Deluxe Ethernet to optical   and yes a minimum of16 megs of ram and a intel 7-9 processor ,and 1 T of SS drive dedicated just for the DSP for HQ player is necessary to have Optimum performance and several weeks to truly learn 

allHQ players abilities with Roon , I am just starting to dedicate any quality time 

I have seen m6 brothers results and it is fantastic and sounds great ,Thst being said it will expose any weak link in the chain I estimate at least $10-$15 k  for a quality digital setup from start to finish ,which then it’s truly digital at its best 

the latest T&A 200 dac ,is excellent and has HQ player with a bunch of filters and dither built into the dac , preamp and very nice looking as well as superb digital playback , at around $7k I feel a bargain and will meet or compete anything up to 2x its cost , depending on your taste but it has many filters and a dedicated 1bit DSD section.

@grannyring

Not saying the above set up is best. It is not. It is natural sounding, minimal boxes and reasonable money for the level of sound quality….excluding the cost of my particular dac.

Thanks for the example set up, you have a clear idea of what I’m seeking to do. Interesting you mentioned modem/router combo. I’ve been looking at high quality examples of those. Will connect with LAN cable to streamer then DAC.

I will aim for the best sound quality I can obtain through this simplified scenario. Just not interested in the alternative multiple box/cable routine. I’m confident I can acquire sound quality that will make me happy. @sns , Broadcom chip unit is preferable to an Intel. I’ll check that out.Thanks.

Charles

@grannyring

Here is an internal look  of my Just completed built DAC in Ukraine. Should have it in a couple of weeks.

@charles1dad 

This looks like a DAC from AbbasAudio….is this 3.2 Signature version? 

@lalitk

“This looks like a DAC from AbbasAudio….is this 3.2 Signature version?”

Yes , 3.2 but the SE model not the Signature. Abbas made five or six of the Signature versions. I’m not sure if he plans on any more. He uses special parts in his 3.2 SE, and even rarer parts in the Signature build. He said that the parts are difficult to acquire now.
I have a terrific CD transport awaiting the DAC arrival. Next step is getting the Audio streamer unit in place. One step at a time.😊

Charles

@charles1dad

Congratulations on your purchase. The 3.2 SE appears to be well executed and I’m certain it will be a worthy companion for your CD player and streamer. Looking forward to your listening impressions.

@lalitk 

👍

Charles 

Charles, good for you taking plunge into streaming. Streaming was simple affair in beginning for me, now completely OCD with it! Just can't seem to stop with the experimentation, has replaced my diy modding with rest of system.

With rest of system extremely likely to be end game for me, streaming last frontier for me. Don't know what I'll do when its finalized, need to rid myself of upgradeitus at some point!

Next upgrade after transceivers and optical cable will be Telegartner switch, none of the other audiophile switches impress with technology, also positive reviews from Latik and others. This assumes present router is weak link.,

@sns 

At the end of the day we are who we are.😊

You have a perfectionist streak that continues to push you ever further with exploratory zeal. There’s nothing wrong with that within reasonable boundaries (Which I believe you have).

Admittedly I’m not a perfectionist. I can be thoroughly content with merely the very good-exceptionally good range. Key to long term success/happiness with audio is knowing yourself.  I enjoy reading about your pursuits.

Charles

@sns 

BTW as a fellow wolverine, Go Blue!!!!

Looking forward to both college playoff games later today.

Charles

Wow Charles! Look at that power supply with 3 individual trannys and a couple of chokes. Love it! I think I even see a couple of Audio Note Kaisei capacitors as well as AN top shelf Tantalum resistors. I will spend more time on their site and poke around. I have no doubt you will enjoy this dac for many, many years!

Bill,

Your identification is accurate concerning his part selection. he does emphasize however that you have to properly mix and match these parts. For example he really likes the Blackgate capacitors and Audio Note non magnetic Tantalum resistors. But says too many of them can be counterproductive.

Bill, I know that you specifically will appreciate this. He believes in proper wire orientation. He says through listening,  wire does indeed sound better in a particular direction. He knows this is controversial (For some) but doesn’t care, he bases it on what he hears. This stuff takes time. Just another reason why it is a 3 month build commitment. I know that you would understand this approach.

He and Graham, the builder of your Tron Audio DAC share overlapping philosophical beliefs. BTW Bill, when Abbas utilizes transistors, he sonically prefers vintage Germanium over silicon.😊

Charles

@charles1dad Surprised the Russians haven't bombed that facility, glad you're helping out the Ukranians!

Yessir, GO BLUE!!!!!