For those of you using external grounding source devices, units such as Entreq, Nordost, Synergistic, etc. What size wire gauge seems to work the best?
A ground cable is used for safety. It does not affect the sound unless your system is miswired.
It should be rated at the equivalent or greater current level which would blow the main fuse of your specific device. To be sure, let us say at twice the level. For most purposes and for devices connected to a 15 amp mains, it is not necessary to have a ground cable thicker than about 10 AWG, unless you somehow intend to bypass your fuse (I know there are some fuse lovers on this thread) and run your device as a blast furnace.
Paying any thing over a few dollars for it is just plain .........
I connected basic 16ga copper strand wire to the neg terminal on each speaker only to the standalone box. Speakers have class D sub amps built in not fully powered speakers. Plan to try NPS1260, wire and connector upgrades to see if it improves.
Are you connecting to the negative terminal of the speakers only with a standalone box for "passive' absorption? If powered speakers, I would guess you cannot connect the neg terminal to a ground of a duplex?
Ok thought I should share that I made 2 6x6 grounding boxes for my modest system. $80-$100 investment. Lined boxes with copper plates, 45% rock salt, 45% horticulture charcoal , 10% crushed tourmaline. One is hooked up to my power conditioner chassis nut ground and phono preamp chassis ground plugged into wall outlet ground. Second one just connected to my Goldenear Triton Towers with sub amps built in. Wow what a dramatic improvement connecting a ground box to the speaker neg banana plugs. Tried connecting one to my tube amp with no improvement. Amazing hearing the clarity, percussion, organ, and rhythm section in he background stand out. Many where hidden in the background prior. These grounding tweaks really make a noticeable improvement. I am shocked!
I would think that would bypass the Entreq altogether and go straight to ground. I think as an experiment you might find direct to the ground in the outlet would be better than the Entreq.
I made an adapter from a spare male plug and attached a banana jack to the back side with only a wire from it to the ground pin of the Furutech male wall plug so I only connected the banana to ground via the plug. Then I could stack up plugs to experiment with. Now I use my new black ground box instead going to earth and a copper rod instead.
I believe Entreq's and other boxes are full of stuff simulating earth because most folks don't have the acumen to mess with wires and ground rods and wall outlets.
Yes, the ground of your AC IEC can be the chassis, which can also be the signal ground of an RCA connector. So saying we keep them separate, which I also try to do with 2 ground rods, is kidding ourselves. So something to be aware of as Ralph pointed out, component manufacturers have vastly different schemes. So beware.
I use the Puritan out through the Groundmaster to a rod in mother earth. I ran a separate ground rod for the signal grounds, but in my case they are the same as some of the power grounds. So creating a loop is a risk. I cannot say I have done that but with 2 rods outside I find it hard to believe they will travel back, especially with Groundmaster in place.
Thank you Ozzy for trying this stuff and reporting your results, I think it was you that put me onto the Puritan power filiters which continue to wow me.
Just read an Analog Corner article from Nov 2021 on electrical wiring that I thought might interest:
You are probably right about the rca ground being the same as the chassis ground. But my personal experience has not been good when I mixed the chassis ground and the signal ground. In several cases I got hum.
My solution has been and is now to keep them separate. Perhaps some time, I will check it with an ohm meter.
Question: Are you also referring to the ground on the AC outlet being the same as the signal ground?
Agree Ozzy, but with your meter you may be surprised that the signal grounding is part of the chassis which may also be the AC grounding. Pull your power cable and check the exterior or the RCA connectors to the ground plug and you may find they are the same.
I also added a outlet on the grounding box that grounds dac and server , using a 14 g pure silver wire attached to furutech ncf plugs into the house outlet like Entreq does and it certainly adds a more 3D space.
Could someone who has a grounding box take a voltage measurement between one of the ground terminals on their grounding box and the “D” shaped hole in their wall outlet? I’m curious if a voltage differential exists. I imagine it will be in the microVolt range if at all. The D shaped hole in the wall plug should go to the earth ground outside of your home so virtually no risk plus a voltmeter has a high resistance across the leads. Put the red lead in the D hole and the black lead on the grounding box terminal. I would expect a positive voltage reading if anything.
After looking over the Entreq site recently there now stating the grounding box should match the component it’s grounding ie. weight the bigger the component the bigger the grounding box needed along with another thread I read where the box has one cable inside the box or compartment some of the larger Entreq box have multiple compartments thus multiple cables.
Entreq now list the mixture , tungsten , magnesium, silver etc. so I did the same. I’m sure my mixture is different but it still made a huge difference in the music.
It’s like any tweek really “ you need to read , experiment and try different combinations to reach the desired effect your looking for.
Ralph is spot on. Get your ohmmeter out and discover how your connections are connected to either one another or to ground.
I have 2 earth ground rods. The first is purely the Puritan unit green ground wire through the Groundmaster device.
The second ground rod takes all my "signal grounds" out via a DIY ground box. But note that the signals are in many cases connected to the power ground through the chassis. A potential ground loop situation. So I ran a separate ground rod to make it a longer path, so to speak. I only use 12 ga "Romex" for each rod wire. About 20 feet for each to get me to Mother earth.
I’ll try to attach some photos of my DIY box. I braid 18 or 20 ga wire for my cables from components to the box to make it look sexier and use alligator clips or banana jacks.
it‘s got me beat why people play around with expensive ‘virtual earths‘ when you can make the real thing. Got an old radiator? Ham radio ops have been doing it for over a century.
The Entreq box I own has 4 terminals and my DIY has 2 separate connections in one box. Entreq also makes units that have several independent sections in one box.
@ozzyI looked at the Entreq site and also read the manual for the boxes.
They only have one wire from the component to the box. When a cell is used in a box, it can only be used for one component so there are no other 'ground' wires connected to that cell.
Since only one wire is used there is no circuit- and therefore no current. I think you'll find that the wire is of little consequence. As best I can make out the boxes might act as a sort of opposite of an antenna and is something for which I have either too much education or too little to understand; I found the poorly written (language first English not) explanations offered on the website incomprehensible.
As I look at your beautiful system that I can only dream of how beautiful it sounds. I can't help but think you have/have developed ultra-sensitive hearing to be able to hear any issues that detract from your listening pleasure.
Here is a quote I found from What’s Best Forum, I thought it would help explain.
"Signal noise kills transients and detail. The more noise you have in your ground signal, the less of the finer areas of your music will be heard. Of course, some people have more noise than others so its difference in degree is, of course, obvious but it’s not until you remove the noise that you understand its negative and damaging effects.
The Entreq grounding boxes work with signal ground noise. Although noise from other bits of kit can be only very slight, that doesn’t mean it’s not having a negative effect on the performance of your entire system. The Entreq range of grounding boxes fixes this as they drain off the noise in the signal path, thus opening up the sound.
Thanks, Ralph, for your continued comments. You do know your stuff.
It was not actually a buzz that I heard, but a low-level noise riding along with no music playing. But only if I pressed my ear up against the speaker drivers.
After signal grounding I no longer hear it, but the depth of the music quality improved greatly.
This seems to be unknown territory that needs more research.
I also had a residual noise when I used your Atmashere amps. It is inherent in tube amplifier designs.
With all due respect, you really need to try this type of grounding before you comment. It would probably surprise you, as it did me.
Its true that tubes are noisier than solid state. But you should not get any buzz if things are going well- just hiss. I run my amps on horns and I'm not particularly keen on buzz, nor do I get any. There are a good number of things that can cause buzz in a tube amp- for example leakage in the filament/cathode elements of the tubes, where noise can be injected into the audio circuit, or swept resonance between the inductance of the secondary winding of a power transformer and the capacitance in the junctions of the power rectifiers (of course that can happen in solid state amps too). Neither has anything to do with ground!
You might want to look at this page; of particular interest is page 20:
Grounding is a far more complex topic than most people realize! I love the comment he makes about grounding in aircraft, not having to drag a ground wire around- its a good point.
At any rate I'm not contesting that you hear a difference or that it might be an improvement! Instead I'm simply pointing out that because that is so, it points to something amiss in the grounding scheme of the equipment you're using. Its a common problem in the audio world; I've seen amps that are currently in production that have grounding schemes from the 1950s before grounded outlets were a thing; others that have IEC connectors but the ground connection isn't hooked up. I've no idea how such products could be shipped overseas, since they are a bit more draconian about such things in Europe and even China; relatively speaking in the US its a bit of the Wild West in this regard.
Actually, the chassis ground is not a good place for this type of grounding.
I am using a ground wire attached only to the rca, xlr, bnc, spade lug,etc. ground on the components only. Seems like it should be the same but in function it is not. Then with the ground leads they need to go to some type of grounding sink.
There are many of these available. My DIY tries to duplicate mother earth. That is with a magnetic pad at the bottom of a sectioned off earth section then with many minerals, crystals, metals etc. etc on top mixed with a few other liquid chemicals.
The more of your system that can be connected this way the deeper the sound image goes. It is quite pleasant and impressive.
I’m surprised just reading about it. Because while I have tried different grounding and heard differences they were never anything to do with wire type or gauge and the differences I heard were never anything like this. However, I have also seen so many experienced listeners like you hear things that, however unlikely really are there, that I no longer doubt these kinds of things. Because of this I would be looking for ways to understand what is going on long before I would be looking for ways to explain it away.
So just to get this straight Ozzy you are now running 16g solid (not stranded?) silver wire, from amp chassis ground, to some kind of star grounding box and then direct to earth ground?
Ok, but my ears can hear the improvement and my brain can appreciate it. If it can't be measured it must not be? It reminds me of the age-old topic of power cords not making a difference.
I'm not contesting that. And I can easily measure why a power cord is audible in a system- they respond to Ohm's Law like anything else, but that's off topic. This:
Ralph is giving you a hint to fix the grounding issues at the source vs a series of relatively expensive band aids.
- is correct. It might not be as inexpensive as all that, since the manufacturer of the equipment that is causing you to need the grounding box might push back on the idea that they have a problem. Put another way, if the grounding box helps, its a useful tool to indicate that there is a grounding problem somewhere.
If that is the case, I use a DVM to check and see if the audio connection grounds are the same as the chassis and see how that relates to the ground pin of the IEC connection. You should be able to measure something between chassis and audio ground, but if its a short, that can be a problem. OTOH if you find that the chassis isn't grounded through the AC power cord that too is a problem! Grounding is a tricky thing and its not surprising if a designer gets it wrong- I've been there.
Now you might think 'hey, the box fixed it all' which is fine. No worries. But audiophiles often ask 'can it get better?' and the answer is often 'yes'. People have said to me many times that they can't imagine how it might get better, and then it does. There are almost always opportunities for improvement.
Again, I did not perceive any problem BEFORE I tried these signal grounding units. What a difference in the depth, bass, treble, soundstage and musically quality I gained!
Ralph is giving you a hint to fix the grounding issues at the source vs a series of relatively expensive band aids. Just my opinion, but i have ears, experience and a DMM. On the digital side, immaculate grounds and a Faraday cage will also be a big help.
Ok, but my ears can hear the improvement and my brain can appreciate it. If it can't be measured it must not be? It reminds me of the age-old topic of power cords not making a difference.
Thank you and I respect your opinion, but I consider it just your opinion and not actual experience.
Its engineering. FWIW I did a survey about this topic a few years ago. What I found was that there were grounding problems in every system where the box was shown to be an improvement. To back this up in at least one of the manuals of one of the ground box product, the manual states exactly what I said- that if all the equipment has a proper grounding scheme internally, there will be no benefit.
Usually an Ohmmeter is all that's needed to sort this question out.
I am using tube mono blocks, which with tubes, generally have some sort of low-level noise. But as I stated I could tell even that noise to dissipate. I am pretty much now using 16 gauge solid .999 silver and have been happy with the results. But I do have some heavier gauge (12ga) running from my amps. I also have one length of Entreq Atlantis cable, that was the reason I started this thread. I still can’t understand why it is so expensive.
And, in addition to my Entreq Silver Tellus and my large DIY box I also have a couple of smaller DIY boxes that I use at my negative speaker terminals.
Interesting observation on cable length , I have a lot of different lengths and notice no change and with my amp, I have both the binding post grounded to separate boxes as will has rca to its own box and I hear zero noise from my speakers.
Thank you for that information. I have also found that different lengths can change the equation as to gauge size.
Right now, I have noticed that if I connect my mono blocks to the same grounding box, and if I press my ear up close to one speaker, I can hear a faint noise. But if I separate the amps to 2 different grounding boxes there is zero noise.
I have also noticed some other very interesting changes that sometimes defy "my" logic.
I’ve been following both this thread and your post on WBF and from what I’ve understood from Peter is he stated multiple gauge silver to achieve a 15 g and that’s what I have been playing with along with different gauges to come to 15 g along with silver binding post and silver spades, next will be silver rca,s,
I think the key is to use multiple small g wire to achieve the 15 g due to its small signal .
I agree with you on separating digital and analog , each component has its own box I even have a separate box for chassis ground.
Too bad though because it really is the great unknown as to the level of improvement in sound quality it can provide.
Grounding is really important so naturally it can affect sound quality quite a lot. But I was not kidding that if your equipment employs a proper grounding scheme, an external 'grounding box' will not offer any benefit whatsoever.
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