So, I admit that I'm not much of a digital guy. I ordered an Node 2i for the main HT system mostly for Amazon HD. Much better than roku --> Denon AVR-X3600. I liked it so much I ordered another for my previously all analog 2 channel system.
It's not bad, and convenient. Not even close to vinyl on the same release and level matched recordings, but then again, I didn't expect it to be. I keep reading about how you can easily improve the sound by adding in an external DAC. Here's where I get confused.
I don't want to spend a lot on a DAC, because at best it's a secondary source. I'd feel comfortable in the $500 - $1000 range, but I'm really confused over the options and how they relate to sound quality.
First, r/2r vs I guess delta sigma? What are the sonic advantages of either, there are widely differing opinions there. I understand how each works from reading around, but how does it relate to sound quality?
Second, multibit vs whatever else. Same basic questions, what are the basic sound characteristics of each?
Third, oversampling or no.
And lastly, what bitrate/bit depth is considered adequate? 24/192 seems to be standard but some dacs only have 24/128 over optical. Will this make any difference real world with HD streaming? I also have an old NAD cd player with coax digital out I might want to hook up for kicks.
I've researched three so far, the Denefrips Ares II, , the Schiit offerings below $1K, and the Cambridge Audio DacMagic 200M. I would like to have balanced outputs to keep the digital circuitry as far away from the analog stuff as possible.
I'm holding off on a separate DAC for now until I get some other things in order. I think I have my preamp set now. I'm going to get a few small things sorted out on my analog rig first, and then it's a tossup on whether I go with a new power amp or the dac at a higher budget than the $1k I specified.
And honestly, I think that my old preamp was partly responsible for the glare I was hearing with the Node. It's not nearly as prominent now, and detail is quite a bit better, so I can live with the Node for now as I use it mostly for background and checking out new and different music.
May I suggest a different approach. Ignore the comment that you need to pay well above $1000 There are old top of the line DACs available that will outperform a lot of expensive modern DACs.
I own an old Wadia 15, which plays redbook only and plays in a way that leaves me no desire to bother with hi-res. I have compared this unit to many others and with what I have heard it's still a contender. The Wadia heft is famous and is a polar opposite to the modern headache inducing detail monsters that are being produced in ever increasing numbers.
Hooking this up to your Node will be an improvement for sure but would also stand you in good stead should you upgrade to separate streamer. Do not be concerned that it can't decode MQA which has recently been called a scam here on the Gon! They seldom come up for sale, I see one on hifishark now for $1500. It is built like a tank and weighs about 15Kg. Will probably outlive you :)
There are others to consider, like Theta Gen V, Mark Levinson, Manley etc.
And yes OP, an external DAC connection is worth the cost of some optical or TosLink interconnects.The new one may sound somewhat better, but you have full control with an external DAC.
where did you hear that the PowerNode 2i was discontinued? It’s been unavailable for a while on the BlueSound website, but I assumed it was because of production problems. BTW, I got the Node 2i when I decided to transition to streaming. Upgraded to the PowerNode 2i w/HDMI due to space issues and the high WAF rating.
I regret to have to say this but the customer service for this company has fallen considerably. They obviously put out a product that performs reasonably well at a very competitive price point.
I have had a similar experience with Verizon in which the difficulty level of simply canceling or returning an item far exceeds anything in my lifetime. All I can say is buyer beware. WOW 😱
@vinylzone .... that’s very easily accomplished. If you have reached the point where your audio resolution is detailed enough to reveal the difference between interconnects and you want to put some time and effort in you will probably find your home brew is far from the best.
Again I'm not looking for world beating digital right now. And yes, I don't have anything in my system that cost me less than $500 except some accessories.
I've had systems that easily reveal differences in cables for the past 40 or so years. That's why I make my own. Not that I've tried thousands of cables, but I've compared them to some very costly cables, and what I've found is that either some very expensive cables are meant to fix problems with certain components or system sonics, or they're really very good and but extremely overpriced.
I use some of the best copper and connectors available, and I use an interesting geometry I stumbled onto around 30 years ago. I also built my own cable conditioner device. They measure 73pF per meter and take me about 8 hours per meter pair to construct.
So yeah, you can spend thousands on a cable that works well in your system. I don't have to.
I was really surprised how dacs respond to better feet. If you want to try to squeeze a little more resolution out of your node give it a try. I know my CD player benefits due to the transport but had no idea how big of an improvement some fairly cheap footers could do. I had some old Golden Sound jumbo's and some black diamond racing cones laying around in a box so I gave it a shot. Not a small improvement either, very noticeable as soon as I hit play.
@vinylzone .... that’s very easily accomplished. If you have reached the point where your audio resolution is detailed enough to reveal the difference between interconnects and you want to put some time and effort in you will probably find your home brew is far from the best. If you are using the Node without an outboard DAC you have every right to a headache. Get a decent streamer, on a decent power cord, with a top tier DAC on appropriately auditioned digital cable and you may find your vinyl gives you a comparative headache. It’s easy.. do cheap bottom tier digital and you get cheap bottom tier digital sound. No surprises there. FWIW, I’ve sold my share of cables that didn’t work very well on eBay. That doesn’t mean I make good or great cables. As far as a DAC goes.... I'm using a Benchmark DAC 3b .. Stereophile A+ recommended component being fed by both a Cambridge CXNv2 streamer and the digital output of a Sony SA 5400Es .CD/SACD player. I stream Qobuzz hi-rez and Tidal hi-fi as well as having access to Amazon Prime Music and Spotify, and my own complete CD collection via Chromecast..... and that is all at the tap of an app without ever leaving my chair. As far as your vinyl.. you are comparing your vinyl playback system to a $500 digital instrument on home brew cables. Somehow I think you have waaay more than $500 in your vinyl system, maybe way more in just the cartridge, without arm, without table. You are totally restricted in what you can listen to by the medium you have chosen. For the cost of 5 or 6 records a year you can have access to almost anything in or out of print.... millions and millions, unrestricted.
I own the Node 2i and love it. There are better DACs like a Lumin D2. Based on what you are using it for do not upgrade by getting a cheap DAC. I have compared that DAC in the Node 2i with other DACs costing more than the Node2i. Unless you want to change the sound signature do not waste your money unless you go past $1,000.
I’m starting to think this may be the best way to go.
I left the Node 2i streaming 24/7 over the weekend and into last night to see if a significant break-in made a difference.
Last night, my wife’s sister called (usually around a hour of the wife yelling back and forth that I didn’t want to listen to), so I retreated to the listening room waiting for the "I’m done" text.
I didn’t feel like firing up the turntable, so I decided to sit down and listen to the node 2i. I just threw on my classic rock playlist, and the first couple of songs were OK. Then Whole Lotta Love from a remaster of LZII. I was actually surprised at how good it sounded, so I queued up the whole album.
Ok, so it wasn’t perfect, not quite as good as the vinyl, but almost everything was there frequency and detail wise , and the imaging was almost holographic, seeming to extend behind and in front of the speakers. Not as emotionally engaging as the early vinyl pressing. I wouldn’t quite call the sound bright, but maybe slightly harsh at the top. Symbols weren’t quite right, but close. Overall, listenable, and a bit surprising.
I listened to a few other tracks, and came to the conclusion that although the break-in time had something to do with it, most of the issues I was hearing before probably has much more to do with the quality or lack thereof of recording, which no dac will really fix.
I’m still on the fence, but now I’m seriously considering that I might just stick with the Node 2i, make the other changes I want to my system, and then revisit the dac thing with a higher budget in mind once that’s done.
Hello, I own the Node 2i and love it. There are better DACs like a Lumin D2. Based on what you are using it for do not upgrade by getting a cheap DAC. I have compared that DAC in the Node 2i with other DACs costing more than the Node2i. Unless you want to change the sound signature do not waste your money unless you go past $1,000. If you want a R2R get the Denifrips Pontus. Look for used, people upgrade all the time. If you want a chip based unit go with the RME. The RME has an adjustable EQ. Both of these will be perfect for a long time. If your system is tubes stay away from the Ares II. Too mellow. Bottom line try before you buy. Below $1k you are wasting your money. If you have a good power cable lying around get the nema c13 to C7 adapter on Amazon. Or the Nordost Purple Flair. The power cable makes a BIG difference. If you want to remove some of that digital sound add a Puritan Classic cable with the C7 end so it is ready to go. It also comes in matching black or white colored sheath. The store in the Chicagoland area sells BlueSound, Lumin, Nordost and Puritan. For the DACs you will have to order online. https://holmaudio.com/ This is the store. Sadly BlueSound discontinued the PowerNode 2i but they have the Node2i. They also ship! The DAC will be worth it once you get well above the level of the one in the Node2i.
@vinylzone I cannot suggest a DAC, but simply to explore and you will find how nice hi-res streaming can be. I bought an integrated last year that had a very nice built-in DAC as a bonus. I also picked up the Node2i and sometimes the digital version is really close to vinyl. I am still quite a newbie to streaming. I did a quick comparison of Qobuz, Tidal & Amazon HD and didn't hear much difference so stuck with Amazon as it offered other family bonuses with the service. Good luck finding a good DAC as you can absolutely far surpass the onboard DAC in the Node2i
OP, I owned a TNT long ago and then tried the Classic 3 they are very nice tables just not for me. I really like my Exemplar Audio tube Oppo 105 it's a very analog sounding CD player. I was content with cd and vinyl. I tried streaming just for background music and to find new music to buy cd's and albums. I think if you bought a MHDT or same type dac sold your node and found a Auralic streamer with femto clock or equal quality streamer for around $600 bucks you may rethink your turntable situation. Maybe all in little over $1000 with sale of node. If you can find used you can sell them fast without losing a dime. I spent 15% on streaming compared to vinyl and listen to 80% streaming compared to my records, I did not expect this to happen.
Listening is subjective, but I couldn’t disagree more with the OP statement that the Node sounds like it’s out of the 1990s, not if it’s paired with a decent DAC.
That is the point of my thread. I'm looking for a dac in the $500-$1k price range to pair with the node 2i. Not sure how you missed that.
The included DAC with the Node is very limiting—it would be like listening to a turntable with a $20 cartridge. Since the OP seems not to care, basing all his judgements of digital on low end stuff, I wonder what he is trying to achieve with this thread.
See above.
Sorry to be curmudgeonly, but I get tired of people posting here “I don’t like digital, I am not willing to make any investment to be persuaded otherwise, but recommend me something cheap that will blow me away”.
What thread were you reading?
I'm not looking for state of the art, at least right now. I'm looking for the best sound I can find in a dac within my current budget. I'm not looking to be "blown away". I don't dislike digital in principal. You already agreed that the Node internal dac isn't adequate.
So, I really don't understand the basis for your rant.
Listening is subjective, but I couldn’t disagree more with the OP statement that the Node sounds like it’s out of the 1990s, not if it’s paired with a decent DAC. I have one in an HT system that I paired with an old PSAudio DigitalLink 3, vintage 2006, and it really sounds good. One of these DACs probably goes for $150 now The included DAC with the Node is very limiting—it would be like listening to a turntable with a $20 cartridge. Since the OP seems not to care, basing all his judgements of digital on low end stuff, I wonder what he is trying to achieve with this thread. He could just blue tooth it and be happy. Sorry to be curmudgeonly, but I get tired of people posting here “I don’t like digital, I am not willing to make any investment to be persuaded otherwise, but recommend me something cheap that will blow me away”. That’s like asking the Detroit Lions to claim some guy on waivers that will take them to the Super Bowl
Another vote for RME ADI2 Pro. Unbeatable with any of the other options. Schitt is loved in my book, but RME is a crazy good product. I wish it made a difference in connecting my Mac Mini to my powered Dynaudio speakers.
My Node 2i runs through a Neko Audio D100 MKII; that DAC is available with balanced or unbalanced outs, and I think it's currently available for $1000 (normally $1500). My integrated amp is a Belles Aria, and I use Amazon HD.
For what you are looking for, I don't know that spending any more would be prudent. I'm very pleased with using the streamer to discover new things, and some selections sound fabulous (try "Harry Belafonte Sings the Blues"). I play cd's and vinyl more, but the Node is a steal of a deal. Simple to use, and I've had no trouble with the interface.
I’ve had two Node 2’s feeding several DACs ... and have used them in two separate systems, one a CJ preamp/amp setup into Focal 1028be’s, the other a secondary system feeding into a Rogue Integrated Sphinx V3 into Monitor Audio Silver 200s. I started with the Mytek Brooklyn DAC+ (which is great but out of your desired price range), a dragonfly cobalt (which has no business being used for anything other than iPhone or computer speaker use), a Topping D70s, and an RME Adi-2 DAC fs (the latest one with the upgraded chipset)... While everyone’s ear and system is different, I think the Topping is very good bang for the buck - no distortion, good detail and excellent transparency (and perfect for my smaller system) though lacks the depth, staging of the Mytek or RME. As for the others, I had the Mytek for 3 yrs and loved it but just did my own side by side in my CJ/focal setup comparing the Mytek and the RME and I have to say, the two are sonically very close. The Mytek may win a bit on soundstage but the RME wins on clarity of detail. Again, both are great and very very close performance wise. And the RME has more features and ability to fine tune, which takes a while to get the hang of but I enjoy those benefits. Which led me to sell my Mytek, and I got hundreds more back for what I paid for my new RME... ! net, try different DACs and see what suits you... but RME is fantastic especially for the price. Hope that helps!
My advice is to send your node 2i back, and get the Cambridge Audio CXN V2 which has a good dac built in. It runs about $1k and includes your dac and streamer
Not an option, it doesn't support Amazon HD, only SD via chromecast. The wife is used to Amazon, and I'd get all kinds of grief if she had to learn other interfaces. The wife and technology don't mix well.
My advice is to send your node 2i back, and get the Cambridge Audio CXN V2 which has a good dac built in. It runs about $1k and includes your dac and streamer
I love my BlueSound Node 2i. The dealer talked me in to adding a ProJect S2 DAC and I felt the bass sounded thin. I sold the DAC on Audiogon for half price. I still would like to hear crisper highs. Maybe it is time for new speakers. I stream Tidal and love it. I would be curious to hear some more expensive DAC’s. However I think the difference in sound quality is like splitting hairs. I think there must be a time when you say enough is enough and be satisfied with what you have.
What still amazes me is how very few people own a stereo system. A realtor has been sending me listings of homes on the market in our area for years and I yet to speakers in any of their rooms. People buy $7,000 entertainment cabinets with a wide screen TV and they are listening to the speakers on their TV. You have got to be kidding me. A lot of these homes are on the market for over $1 million.
Digital can be as good as vinyl although at a bit more cost, also it can be fully satisfying at the same cost. Where it becomes compelling is with good quality digital equipment and Tidal or Qubuz streaming services. Suddenly you have access to a nearly infinite amount of very high quality music. There are times my digital end was better than my analog end. But consider for the price of one album a month, nearly an infinite library. Many recordings remastered in higher quality than red book. Also, digital streaming is the future. I like vinyl, I have 2,000 albums in pristine condition. I listen to streaming 85% of the time. Go hear a great streaming system and it will blow you away. Nothing wrong with vinyl, it is still the absolute best quality sound at the same cost. But keep in mind digital can be breathtaking... but not at the $500 level.
Frankly, I get a laugh from the guys who buy low bucks for digital because it couldn't be as good, and then of course it isn't because they bought entry level stuff and hooked it up with whatever they had left over lying around, because they didn't want to spend money there either.
Seriously, I have no opinion on how good digital can be because at this point I just don't care. FYI, I have already replaced the power cords (I build my own). I'm using the same interconnect between the node and my preamp as I am between the Herron and the preamp, also DIY. I've been making my own cables since the 90's, and even sold some of them back then to other audiophiles.
At this point, I just want the digital setup to not give me a headache after an hour, so I can use it for background music or to check out some new music. Maybe sometime in the future I'll look at digital seriously. Maybe not.
In this subject, how do you rate the node as a streamer. I have the bluos module in my NAD integrated. I assume that the onboard dac of the integrated is doing the conversions. Just ordered a stand alone R to r dac. Is there a price value relationship in the streamer?
In this subject, how do you rate the node as a streamer. I have the bluos module in my NAD integrated. I assume that the onboard dac of the integrated is doing the conversions. Just ordered a stand alone R to r dac. Is there a price value relationship in the streamer?
I have a Node 2i. It hooked to my router with a Cat 8 cable. Digital coax out to Esoteric K-05x with DH Labs 750 cable. I am using Amazon HD which works well with the Bluos app. The ease of trying albums, I have not heard before is great. From what I have read SQ is much better with Qobus. Which I may try in the future. Some albums sound pretty good but comparing SQ with their vinyl or cd equivalents it's not even close.
+1 to all the people who suggested upgrading the power chord.
i’m also a vinyl focused listener who uses a Node2i for streaming. Any of the DACs suggested will improve the sound but the PC that comes with the Node2i is exceptionally flimsy and thin. Swapping it out was one of the best bang for the buck upgrades i’ve ever heard.
no need to spend much of your budget on it. around $100 will do. i got a $130 Shunyata Venom cause that’s what my dealer had in stock. I heard improvement throughout the frequency spectrum but especially in the low end. More extension and clarity there.
Frankly, I get a laugh from the guys who buy low bucks for digital because it couldn't be as good, and then of course it isn't because they bought entry level stuff and hooked it up with whatever they had left over lying around, because they didn't want to spend money there either. If you want better then entry level sound get better than entry level gear and do all your homework with testing power cords, cables and so forth. If you put the same effort into digital as analogue I think the analogue will be better.
My node 2i runs through a firs gen Schiit Bifrost I found on eBay for $300 used. Sounds amazing. The newer Bifrost 2 has your balanced outputs - go for it: https://www.schiit.com/products/bifrost-1
IMHO, I wouldn't limit yourself to balanced outputs. I think for this application it's not going to make THAT significant a difference.
I'm looking for balanced because the difference it would make is purely placement. Currently, my analog gear including my 2 channel preamp is 40 feet of cable run away from the power amp, which is located near the TV/HT system where the power amp (and main speakers) are hooked up to both systems. I want to locate the digital gear as far away from the analog stuff as I can.
IMHO, I wouldn't limit yourself to balanced outputs. I think for this application it's not going to make THAT significant a difference. For one thing, when you connected your Node to your preamp, you were using unbalanced RCA interconnects anyways. And when you do get a DAC, you're still going to have a "digital" signal between Node and DAC. I wouldn't sweat it. <G>
I do agree that the Node2i benefits greatly using an external DAC. The integrated one is adequate, but only just. I tried a Jolida first and while an improvement, I knew there was better out there for not that much more money. I'm currently using a Border Patrol and am very happy with it after it's burn-in. I spent a little bit more and had some Morrow audio interconnects made for it and it will do me for some time in my current system.
Congrats on the Node 2i! While I don’t have one, I’ve bought PowerNodes for (granted not very audiophile) family and friends based on the reviews alone and they are really happy with them.
Another vote for RME ADI-2 if you can swing it. Really excellent, neutral but not dry. Much better than Ayre Codex in my experience. With the Ayre I was always itching to go back to my PS Audio DirectStream; not nearly so much with the ADI-2. There’s also a few good comparisons online to the Chord Qutest, where the ADI held up pretty favorably. I don’t know that it will be THAT big of an upgrade over the Node internal DAC though. I thought the Node 2i was pretty good as is?
What I like about the ADI is, as you’d expect from pro gear, they have achieved bulletproof performance through a high degree of technical sophistication. Eg it performs and sounds as it should with a very ordinary power supply. Sure, its performance is capped by the internal switching supply and op amps, so it will never sound like a MSB Reference or what not, and some DACs at 3-5x the price will better it in aspects. But it gets 80-90% of the way there with zero effort. I’ve noticed that while I prefer my DirectStream, it’s not as consistent - eg the “sounds better late at night” phenomenon is way more pronounced with the PS Audio, which is also sensitive to power cords. The RME I can just throw on with an rPi over USB and Mogami interconnects and it will sound reliably great.
There are a couple things things to watch out for with the ADI. It is pretty much dead neutral, so if you are looking to add some flavor to your system or make digital resemble vinyl, look elsewhere. And if you really need to use it with balanced XLR - the performance seems somewhat compromised via RCA. Sounds like that won’t be an issue here.
With respect to all the other opinions here, I would not worry too much about R2R vs. bitstream. My experiences do not align exactly with the character some are ascribing, especially “musicality” which is highly subjective. I don’t find one architecture to be inherently more musical; the most I can say is that ladder tends to have sharper leading edges, which makes sense since it has theoretically infinite slew rate, while the gentler analog filters of bitstream might make it a bit smoother and more coherent top to bottom. In any case, the overall implementation of the entire DAC matters much more. Case in point: my previous reference DAC was based on PCM1704 ladder, passive IV and tube output stage. My current - bitstream FPGA - could not be more different in technical approach.
A lot to process since last night. I want to make a few points/clarifications.
I am only using Amazon HD for a streaming service. I am not currently planning to expand to other services. The BluOS phone/tablet app works just fine for this, and my technologically challenged wife is happy. especially with the presets on the phone app.
On the Node 2i, network is hard wired back to the router. Variable volume is off. 0 problems due to streaming, better than using roku, so I’m happy there.
I don’t think the Node sounds awful, just very digital in a 90’s sort of way. When I still was giving digital a try back in the 90’s, I had a Sonographe SD22 CD player that was somewhat analog like to the limits of what CDs sounded like at the time. I guess a more analog sound is what I’m looking for, not to get a digital setup to rival my analog.
When I say digital will be a at best a secondary source, I am talking about in my system. I don’t want to get into debates of what formats are capable of. I like analog, and am still actively buying records. My analog front end will always be my primary source, at least until I am unable to get up and change records :).
The $500-$1000 budget is self imposed. I could go a lot higher, but there are other priorities in my system that I’d rather put money into for the foreseeable future. Once those are done, I might feel differently about what I’m willing to spend on digital, but that’s a ways off.
@vinylzone. You have a lot of $$$ invested in your vinyl front end and I assume the rest of your system is of high quality as well. yet you are only thinking of investing $500 - $1000 on a DAC, it sounds like you have already delegated your digital front end to be so much less than it could be. I was once like you, a vinyl diehard, but much has changed in the digital world lately and if you really stepped up your game and spent more, I think you would be very pleasantly surprised. Why not consider buying current production second hand gear. If it then doesn’t rock your boat, you can easily sell it and recoup your costs.
If you're not satisfied with the Node 2i, you can make it sound better with an external DAC. I went down that route, trying it with a Mytek Liberty and an Auralic Vega. Better, but still not that great.
For me, replacing it was a better and more sensible choice than trying to band-aid it with power cords, ethernet cables, or an external DAC. I chose a TEAC NT-505 which was much better sounding than the Node / Auralic Vega combo (the Vega cost more than the NT-505). I'd also look at the Lumin streamers.
The NT-505 must be at or near end of life, TEAC was blowing them out on Walmart for about $1200 ($2000 originally). You should be able to find one for not much more than your budget.
Save a little more money than your current budget and flip the Node 2i if you're not happy with it.
The OP refers to DACs as a “secondary “ source. Transports matter, but the DAC imo is much more important. Think of it like a gourmet restaurant. You have a great chef (DAC). The chef has two helpers to purchase the ingredients. One goes to Walmart and gets reasonable quality food, at least it isn’t rotten and worm filled (Node 2i). The other goes to Farmer Markets, etc and gets the highest quality food.(any other DAC than the Node). The chef will probably make a great meal either way, but which would you prefer?
If you're that much into vinyl, why get a stand-alone DAC at all? In my opinion, a DAC in the $500-$1000 range may not bring enough improvement to justify the additional cost or device clutter.
I used to run the Node 2i into a Peachtree Nova 500 integrated, which has its own DAC chip (the ESS 9028 Pro). In A/B testing between the Node DAC and the Nova DAC, I did not notice a difference.
I'm not saying the Node 2i DAC can't be bettered, but I'd expect it to take more than what you're now willing to spend. Not only that, but you might get more bang for the buck (and more fun) by adding a Roon subscription and a dedicated computer to run the Roon Core software.
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