Get a load of this Deceptive add for a Gryphon Amp here on AG
So the title is Gryphon Essence Stereo Power Amplifier Pure Class A 5 Months Old.
You can read the description for yourself.
I make an offer on the amp. Below is the reply I get from the Seller. Maybe its just me but this kind of selling should be BANNED on AG. Selling Grey Market gear without putting any of it in the description. Total BS...and he isn't even the owner of the amp. He's in California but says he's selling for somebody else in Massachusetts.
Thank you for your offer that I can accept. I
have some things to explain: It's imported, from out-of -US distributor.
Gryphon designed it voltage interchangeable, manufactured 220-240V, then set
up by distributor's technician to US 120V so you can just plug ( the power cord
) and play. Gryphon's warranty is not transferable, made very clear in
user's manual Page 25. But don't worry. Whenever in need of service, just send
to LA and I will take all things ensuing. If these are fine with you please
let me know then I will accept to proceed. Will ship to you from
Massachusetts by the current ( the only ) owner.
I think you are right that kind of info has to be in the ad, but I'll also say the seller is not a total scumbag. At least he did disclose the situation to you in the follow-up a waste of time sure but not an outright lie.
I think that he should have put that info in the ad, but when you expressed interest, at least he volunteered it in a clear manner. Of course, saying that he will take care of any problems that you may have with he amp in the future is certainly nothing that you can hang your hat on.
I sent an offer based on a USA voltage amp which anybody that reads that add would assume. It was a waste of time because had I known the facts no offer would have been made. Its also troubling that he is selling the amp for somebody else....3000 miles away from him no less. That alone should be in violation of something in the Audiogon "rule book". Surprised Im the only one that thinks this behavior is OK and should be allowed. Must be my twisted ethics of good business practice rearing its ugly head again.
Sorry I skimmed right over the based in CA selling the amp for someone in Mass part yes that is extremely shady much more so than the grey market aspect.
I live in Massachusetts. Wonder where in the Bay State the amp's actual owner is. (I do, in fact, live in Massachusetts, but I'm just kidding, by the way, about wondering where the amp's actual owner is. Because I'm really quite funny, don't ya know.)
The person has a 100% approval rating, score is 196. He has an E store and is a business and also states he sold it to HIS customer who lives in Ma. He also said it was a 220 volt model converted to 120V. So I am asking you, where is the scam? It’s obvious to me he is selling it for the customer for a fee and it will be shipped from where the owner lives. Makes sense seeing the seller is in CA.
So, again I ask, what or why is it thought to be a scam?
Is the paragraph you posted of that “sellers” response verbatim? If so, their use of their English language screams non-native English speaker. Could be a scammer not even in the United States. Not a chance in hell I would even consider sending them money. There is absolutely no way a legit seller would be selling an item that not only isn’t in their possession, but is literally on the opposite side of the country. Sounds like a potential setup where the assumed wait to arrange/receive the amp from the person supposedly in possession of the amp will buy them time to be long gone with your money before you’re certain you got screwed. Regardless if I’m off, it’s an extremely shady setup. If you can’t help yourself, we least ask for the SN of the amp and see if they respond. If they do I would have the manufacturer verify it, if possible, it’s a valid SN and if it was sold overseas originally.
I found the add. It doesn’t read as badly as expected. $350 shipping is, putting it lightly, excessive though. I’m having a really hard time understanding how a dealer would be comfortable selling an amp they haven’t inspected or have in their possession. Very, very odd. Ask for their shop name, address, their name, phone number, etc. They should have no problem sharing this information so you can investigate further.
It’s a little lacking in upfront transparency, probably to attract offers, but he DID tell you about the “issues”. He does have high positive feedback, so I’d let this one go as “just not interested” and move on instead of trying to create havoc from a vetted seller.
The seller has been on AGon since 2013, has a 100% positive rating and regularly sells high end product. If you were concerned, you should ask admin to verify his ratings.
I fail to see the point of trying to create problems or raise unsubstantiated doubts about their integrity by posting this publicly...
as others have said, i don’t see a problem with what the seller posted - there is proper disclosure - nor his reply (if in fact that is represented accurately by the op) and his record here is extensive and perfect
so he is chinese, his english isn’t great, but it works well enough to communicate ... 192 positive feedback points, 100% positive, since 2013 -- that is no joke...
i am not sure why the public b*tch n moan from the op on this... if you don’t like his reply, don’t buy it... move on
I’m new here, so grain of salt, but I do have a semblance of a brain and I frequently participate in buying and selling things online.
IMO it’s clearly mildly deceptive that none of this is disclosed in the ad-- these are clearly details that any buyer would want to know--and it’s good that the seller disclosed it in the reply followup.
It’s unseemly to drag people through the mud but a little rap on the knuckles is justified here. Good post. I hope the seller changes his or her tactics.
Not everyone who sells here on Audiogon has to be a native English speaker and grammar expert. Many ads could be from people who have immigrated from other countries. When in doubt make contact with the seller and due your DD, which the OP has done. No need to to jump to so many unflattering assumptions.
I don't see an issue. The owner is doing an upgrade and shipping his original purchase from his home. The seller is also a dealer and supplying the owner with the upgraded NEWER amp and has offered to sell the owners original purchase. Wax job is extra! 3% more for PP :-)
Problem is...starting with STEREO5 post is that the listing has been revised. Your not seeing the initial listing so your not commenting on the description as it was originally posted.
BELOW is the ORIGINAL Description before he revised it. No mention of selling it for somebody else. No mention of the Original Voltage and that its considered Grey Market here in the USA with no hope for warranty work if something goes wrong. All that stuff was added MANY hours later after I made this a topic of discussion.
Gryphon Essence Stereo Power Amplifier, Pure Class A. Only 5
Months Old, very new, you can take a look of one of the pictures here
showing close-up shining of the biding posts. Very heavy: W x H x D: 18.5" x 9.5" x
18.1" ( 47 x 24 x 46 cm ), 99.2 lbs ( 45kg ) Shipping dimension and
weight W x H x D: 23.2" x 15.0" x 22.4" ( 59 x 57 x 38 cm ) 125.7 lbs ( 57kg ) For matching this, I have also an Essence preamplifier, about half a year of light use, at 11900.
Still not understanding the outrage? Or for that matter, why you are clinging to it? Perhaps, a log of its use, including hours played, what music was played and what, if any, food was consumed during the sessions…
Did you ask any questions when you submitted your offer, or before you submitted your offer, or did you just click confirm? Because that, is highly relevant.
What questions should I have asked? Clearly I was ready to purchase the amp for the price I offered (which was accepted) based on the information which was provided in the UNREVISED listing. ANYBODY would have assumed by the original listing it was a USA Amp....not a grey market 240V amp. You also would have assumed that the amp was coming from the seller in California....not from somebody 3000 miles away in Massachusetts. It was only AFTER my offer was accepted that all these "New" details were brought to my attention in a separate message from the seller about the voltage change, who the owner of the amp REALLY was and where he lived etc
In case you arent aware if you buy a Grey Market Amp you will be refused service by the manufacturer should anything go wrong with it down the road.
Yea, but he disclosed everything prior to you paying a dime. Now if you paid, he sent the amp and then you discovered this info you would have a point. I don't see the issue here.....he disclosed prior to you paying...if you don't like what he disclosed don't buy the amp. Sure, the ad may have been more descriptive or worded better but I don't see a scam here.
If all of those things were disclosed before you sent any money, then what's the problem? How is a grey market item any different than a used item? Very few manufacturers will honor a warranty for anyone but the original owner.
I recently bought a used phono cartridge that was listed by a seasoned Audiogon seller for a friend of his. It was an excellent transaction. It didn't hurt that after some discussion I found out the seller works at a local hifi dealer.
BIG_GREG....BIG difference between a Grey Market Amp and an Amp with No Warranty. If your not the original owner BUT the amp has your country’s voltage and was purchased in your country they will still fix the Amp and charge you for it. If you purchase a GREY MARKET amp they will refuse to work on it PERIOD. Thats a HUGE factor to consider.
Never said SCAM in any of my posts. Was never "outraged". Reading comprehension is clearly an issue with some. We all should be given FULL DISCLOSURE for any item listed on A-gon. It was a Shady and misleading add in its original form Very simply put the Description should have stated it was a Converted 240V "grey market" amp. Can you imagine if for ever single amp listed on A-Gon you had to ask the Seller what Voltage it is or what market it was originally made for?? All amps listed here for sale are assumed to be USA Models unless specified otherwise. Had the 240V been listed I indeed would have ignored the listing.
BIG_GREG....BIG difference between a Grey Market Amp and an Amp with No Warranty. If your not the original owner BUT the amp has your country’s voltage and was purchased in your country they will still fix the Amp and charge you for it. If you purchase a GREY MARKET amp they will refuse to work on it PERIOD. Thats a HUGE factor to consider.
That's not necessarily true and will vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. I have more familiarity with this issue as a photographer. For example, if you buy a Canon camera from another country (international or "grey market"), Canon won't honor the warranty. They will repair it. The same holds true for many products. I've never heard of a manufacture refusing to repair an item because it was an international model. It seems unlikely, since Gryphon is not made in the U.S. Have you contacted them and been told that they won't perform repairs?
There's also the option of having a local repair center make any needed repairs. Is there something proprietary about their amps that would force you to ship it to Denmark rather than have a local (or at least US based) dealer service it?
I agree that the seller should have been forthcoming with those details in the ad itself, but I'm having a hard time understanding how it's a "Deceptive add" (SIC).
Gryphon and Accuphase I can GUARANTEE wont work on Grey Market Units as per their distributors. This is to protect the distributors business model. If you can buy Amps/Speakers from any country without consequences then everybody would be buying them from Europe/Asia where many of the brands are MUCH cheaper. Speakers in particular have no Voltage settings obviously. Accuphase gear costs like 50% of the USA price in Japan (Audio Union etc). Rules are in place to safeguard/discourage that kind of thing from happening.
I got a Gryphon Callisto 2200 integrated amplifier with 230v. I got it before Gryphon Audio Designs started selling their products here in the US a few years ago. I want the power voltage changed to 110-120v. Any ideas what/where I should go with this amp. I am the second owner. I tested the amp at our garage which carries a 240v line and it works. I've read the discussion above and it somehow rekindled this idea that the voltage can be changed. My gratitude to all that help.
I just don't see the issue here. Although he certainly could have, and perhaps should have made that disclosure in the text of the ad, he has an excellent track record here, and made full disclosure of those issues in his confirming message. Plus, is it a big deal (I don't know) that the voltage was changed to 120? Many amps can be changed internally from one voltage to the other, so that doesn't seem like much of a big deal either, although perhaps it is more involved with Gryphon amps. As for the warranty issue, from the comments above, it seems like Gryphon does not have a transferable warranty, period, so although it is important to disclose that, it does not seem to be tied to the "gray market" issue.
OP states ad was deceptive, later on the term shady was used. While original ad may have left pertinent information out, I still wouldn't call it deceptive or shady. A single email brought about full disclosure, the OP is out a single email. You should have private emailed seller about amending his original ad. no need to make this mix up public, the seller has good track record here. I've had any number of mix ups similar to this over many years, honest people sometimes make mistakes. If seller had no track record, I could more understand the public announcement.
As for converting 230v to US voltage, it's possible power transformer has multiple taps. Otherwise new US spec transformer or step down transformer (least preferable). And yes, these are grey market units, less value, no warranty and may be difficult to service here. But if no transferable warranty issue moot. Non-transferable warranty is an issue with me, whats the deal here! This is a business model offering only disincentive to purchase used, and brings into question long term reliability of their equipment. Why won't they stand by warranty regardless of owner, do they rate owners based on some investigation.
Gryphon/Accuphase etc will still work on the gear if there is no warranty as long as its not a "grey market" purchased product. You just have to pay for the repairs out of your own pocket. They will not work on a grey market product period. Thats the difference between No Warranty vs Grey Market. This is common practice which Im sure almost all distributors of any brand will tell you. The Seller amended his description many hours later at night. This was posted in the morning. There was no need for me to further communicate with him all that time later. After his initial email to me I told him I wasnt interested once the truth about the origin of the amp came out. Im not buying any product that will be refused service by the manufacturer. Im a gambler by nature but not when $10,000 - 15,000 is involved. No further reason to discuss this topic as its no longer listed and many dont get the ramifications of buying a grey market product going by their replies.
I’ve been here since 1997 when AG began. It’s my understanding they’ve always taken the position that we’re only owners, and you’re on your own. So tread lightly.
Gryphon does not offer warranty to the second owner but, this seller will send it for service. Sending your amp to Denmark round trip for service can and will cost a bundle. Some ads are hard to believe but they can also be a real good deal.
Gryphon does not offer warranty to the second owner but, this seller will send it for service. Sending your amp to Denmark round trip for service can and will cost a bundle.
does gryphon not have an authorized usa service outfit? always a fear buying big heavy expensive gear made elsewhere in the world, what happens when you need some service or repair...
I had a talk with the director of sales of Gryphon Audio products in New Jersey. I forgot the name of the dealer/company, but they can be located at Gryphon's website list of it's international distributors. The other Gryphon distributor/dealer based in California no longer has ties with Gryphon Denmark. The gentleman from New Jersey politely listened to my concerns and gladly offered their services to assist me in resolving my predicament. His contact info is in the list of Gryphon's US dealer/distributors. I hope this small info helps and again my sincere gratitude to everyone for sharing their best.
The few Gryphon dealers that the US does have will sent equipment to their own service techs in the US. I'm sure someone can find their own service tech if they look long and far enough or maybe go through the Gryphon dealer as a new customer.
You are better off using Factory authorized dealers, distributors, and service centers and staying away from the Grey market sellers of websites like eBay. If you purchase a product from the Grey market from a site like eBay the odds of getting a "look a like", fake, or counterfeit product are greater than 50% regardless of the product according to the US GAO.
A manufacturer may also make products for specific regions, this is especially true in the electronics market. It turns out making "Safe" product for each market is not as easy and simple as some people want you to believe. If you are interested in "Audiophile" performance levels don't try to out smart the system you will be creating your own personal nightmare. It is what you don't know which will eventually cause you a problem. Then there is the issue of performance, the board may be the same but the parts may be different resulting in different performance and not all markets have the same performance expectations.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
